Eagledad

I did this with my Webelos and it worked pretty well. We only did one camp out with troop because it is a lot of work for the PLC. But I believe one camp out is fine anyway. Also we allowed Webelos to visit campouts and participate in the Saturday activities, which works fine as well if the adults are separated with the troop adults so they get an explanation of how the troop works. I remember one parent who got concerned when his son rode his bike in the lake. It was 35 degrees that day. He later joined our troop because he was impressed by how the adults stayed by the fire and let the Scouts take care of the Webelos. He also said our calm response of "he'll never do that again" was the best example of how the program teaches Scouts he could have seen. You are right, so long as Webelos can see a future that looks like fun, then it helps them through the boring days of being a Webelos. Let me just say not all Webelos den are boring, I found most den packs find pretty good den leaders. But loosing over 50% does show an overall problem. A problem I believe starts at Tigers. Also, the BSA membership problem of loosing Scouts the first six months in a troop comes down to the shell shock of young boys taking on so much responsibility and independence all at once. Webelos that have watched and experienced some of that independence have much better odds of getting through that first six months. And as I said, if you got them after summer camp, you pretty much have until at least 14. Longer if the program has the maturity for older Scouts. Barry

Maybe because most of the active members on this forum now are troop leaders, the discussion is missing the bleeding membership problem. I havent looked at the numbers in about 10 years, but up until then less than 50% of tigers become bears. Less than 50% of webelos join a troop. That is not including the drop outs during the other years. Now consider, if a New scout is still in a troop after six months, he will likely stay in Scouts until he is 14. Ignoring the first six months drop out numbers, which is the largest of all scouting, the troop program has a very low drop out rate compared to all the other years. What that means is that the troop program is not driving Scouts away. The cub program is where the bleeding is the problem. Of course the first six months troop drop outs is a concern, but that is a different problem which has been consistent since the BSA tracked membership. The cub drop out problem is complicated, but so as not to drowl on as I typically do, the core of the problem is adult burnout. The average volunteer in any organization has about 20 months of enthusiastic service in them. After that, they start to become a drag on the program. The Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. Solutions? Start by making the cub program shorter. Barry

90 percent of the world doesn't know that the BSA has less adventure or a different kind of adventure than 100 years ago. The vast majority of of the community (including BSA adult leaders) believe today's scouting has just as much adventure as any troop in history. In fact, l would challenge that troops today have more adventure than most troops in the past. My dad's troop in the early 1940s walked to all their camp outs. Any adventure beyond 10 miles out of town was unheard of. So I'm wondering how we should look at today's adventure in perspective of today's program. Barry

Your words. Barry

First off, we will get back to your offensive insinuation of the other unit. Nothing less than bigotry and religious intolerance as far as I'm concerned. You have NO integrity in this forum in a discussion of judging others. 2nd, HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE SCOUTS!. It doesn't matter how you announce it, the other families have a right to know. Your shower comments are irrelevant since the other scouts don't know. Your example of how you are handling this matter is exactly my problem with the BSA handing this kind of responsibility to the volunteers. Keeping secrets like this in the program creates a huge risk. Someone is going to get hurt and quite frankly, there is a serious risk of safety here. Don't use this No Sex In Scouting to defend your recklessness. Are you standing over all the scouts in their tents at night. You do know that the BSA get a fair number of scout to scout sexual abuse calls. It's not always about actions, but perception. I am amazed. Does the District or Council leaders know. Is this standard procedure in other units? Shesh! Barry

Well wait a minute, what about the local option? Here is a different question: On the pretense of sexual attraction, would it be alright for male and female scouts sleep in the same tent? With that being asked, since gay males are sexually attracted to males, shouldn't the other scouts know the scout is gay so they understand the sexuality of their relationship during the activities, and tenting arrangements? I don't know because I have no experience in this area. Barry

Well, I guess families will have some different definitions of innocence. When I read your list, I see the adults in your life acting in "your" best interest in what they exposed you to. I think that is about defined as I can get it. Yes I know this is extreme, but there was a recent article in the paper about a 20 year old father (they think he is the father, maybe not) who killed the three week old infant of the 13 year old mother. The mother asked the father to kill her baby. I can't comprehend any part of the situation. I had to read the article three times to get the ages right. Somehow I don't think there were any adults in any of these kids lives that were acting in their best interest, ever. Barry

Same as any adult who exploits children for a personal gain. Barry

As I'm watching mothers proudly walk with their eight year old daughters at anti-abortion marchs on the news, I think to myself, "adults today don't allow our children any innocence". The adults in our troop allow the scouts their privacy in their tents. That's not a big deal when the adults are camped 300 ft away. But it's not uncommon to set tents next to each other in the back county on high adventure treks. It amazes me that scouts think their tents are sound proof. Sadly, sex is a political football in todays culture, so it is a typical topic of discussion for just about everyone of school ages. Is it really reasonable to not expect these discussions among scouts? As an aside; do you think the mother has explained to her eight year old daughter that mom is fighting for the right to kill her daughters pre-born brothers and sisters? Makes me wonder just how far children are willing to trust their parents to raise them right. Barry

I'm speaking at a high level of the organization making decisions for their volunteers, but OK. Here is a hypothetical for you, real life experience for me. A new scout joins the troop who absolutely loves the program. Dad, who is an Eagle, is excited to volunteer as well. However, mom and dad are in the middle of a fierce divorce. Mom uses scouts to make her son do things against his dad, and to force dad to make tough decisions about his relationship with his son. Every time scouting comes up in any way, son is caught in the middle of a loud discussion. Do you have any moral opinion or judgement of the situation, or more importantly your position as a leader (scoutmaster for me) in that situation? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. Mom puts her son in scouting because she really believe the experience does develop better habits of character. Dad thinks scouting is for sissies and tells his son that every time he puts on a uniform. Is there a moral opinion here? Judgment? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. You, the Scoutmaster, get call by the police in the middle of the night to help in a domestic call of child abuse. Seems the abused child's brother ask for help from the only person he trust, his scoutmaster. This does not set well with the parents. The overall situation raises to a level that the family disappears that week, never to be found again. Loaded their car and left everything. Why do so many people think that not having a moral opinion or not judging is more noble? I honestly don't understand. Barry

I think that anyone suggesting that this discussion is all about defending tradition hasn't been reading the discussion. If we have to put the discussion in simple terms, I would say quality vs. quantity. Barry

Immoral? Yes, in the context of mental and physical harm. If someone starts on an un-natural lifestyle path as a result of adult choices that weren't in that childs best interest, I believe putting them in an environment that further encourages their lifestyle is abuse. The BSA is putting volunteers in responsibilities where they could risk further harm. So yes, that is immoral to me. Barry

Anytime a child feels unsafe as the result of an adults self-serving action, they feel betrayed. Barry

1 Corinthians 13:7 "Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." You and I have a different definition of what support and harm means in raising children. In my lifetime I found that children feel a kind of horror when they are betrayed by the adults they trusted. It changes them and while they may recover (revert?), it never goes away. I have said here before that I believe that loneliness is the major cause for most of people who choose unnatural paths of a life. Adults have an obligation to raise children in the way they should go. For me, the way they should go is God. But at the very least, it's respect. Barry

Yes, you are of course correct NJ. I only used the source as a way of expressing why I appose the BSAs policy on this subject. I'm sure my previous post are consistent. It's a moral perspective for me, but I guess it's also conservative, which sadly makes it political as well. Barry

Yes, I also stated the same opinion during our gay scout discussions. I've heard enough personal stories of gays switching back to heterosexual to still feel strongly about it. I'm not suggesting more debate, I only submitted the article because it expresses my feelings better than I can that the BSA is putting adults in harms way. Barry

I ran on to this quite by accident. I have been saying that allowing transgender youth puts BSA adults at the risk of adding more harm to the youth. This article discusses my concern. American College of Pediatricians: ‘Transgender’ Conditioning Is ‘Child Abuse’http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/j-matt-barber/american-college-pediatricians-transgender-conditioning-child-abuse

Pretty sure we can get that on U-Tube.

I guess. I'm an engineer and you ask a broad question without a lot of details. Would that be like asking the BSA and GSUSA to meet at the same time so the whole family can come at the same time? Barry

And you are willing to risk that? It is better to copy a good thing than to change it. Barry

So you want to pile-on, is that it? Barry

Well, I think it is a lot more than that, but if everyone is fighting to change the BSA rather than the GSUSA and just plain ignoring the co-gender Campfire kids program, it must have a pretty good tradition. Barry

At first I thought this was a unique idea worth thinking about. After thinking about it, what would the program be? Adventure? Isn't that what the troop is supposed to be? OK, maybe it is adventure without the Eight Methods of Scouting, but then who plans and leads the program? I know Adventure Scouts are supposed to plan and lead their program, but now we are talking about 10 year olds. My objection to the changes we are discussing for the present program is that it's turning it into an after school camping program. I think this Venturing idea does exactly that. I like my idea better, lets do some fund raising and pay the GSUSA to experiment with mixing genders. Barry

Why can't we asked the Girls Scouts to experiment first? Barry

YES, I DO. I won't get into the program issues that are causing the "bleeding" in this discussion because it is not the subject. We have had that discussion many times on this forum. I will say that the bleeding will not stop by adding another source of membership, it will just keep bleeding. If the true motivation here is to fix the program, adding the extreme complexity of a whole different demographic source is not reasonable approach. The challenge of this discussion is being honest with our motivations for adding girls to the program. Barry