Eagledad

Yes, I also stated the same opinion during our gay scout discussions. I've heard enough personal stories of gays switching back to heterosexual to still feel strongly about it. I'm not suggesting more debate, I only submitted the article because it expresses my feelings better than I can that the BSA is putting adults in harms way. Barry

I ran on to this quite by accident. I have been saying that allowing transgender youth puts BSA adults at the risk of adding more harm to the youth. This article discusses my concern. American College of Pediatricians: ‘Transgender’ Conditioning Is ‘Child Abuse’http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/j-matt-barber/american-college-pediatricians-transgender-conditioning-child-abuse

Pretty sure we can get that on U-Tube.

I guess. I'm an engineer and you ask a broad question without a lot of details. Would that be like asking the BSA and GSUSA to meet at the same time so the whole family can come at the same time? Barry

And you are willing to risk that? It is better to copy a good thing than to change it. Barry

So you want to pile-on, is that it? Barry

Well, I think it is a lot more than that, but if everyone is fighting to change the BSA rather than the GSUSA and just plain ignoring the co-gender Campfire kids program, it must have a pretty good tradition. Barry

At first I thought this was a unique idea worth thinking about. After thinking about it, what would the program be? Adventure? Isn't that what the troop is supposed to be? OK, maybe it is adventure without the Eight Methods of Scouting, but then who plans and leads the program? I know Adventure Scouts are supposed to plan and lead their program, but now we are talking about 10 year olds. My objection to the changes we are discussing for the present program is that it's turning it into an after school camping program. I think this Venturing idea does exactly that. I like my idea better, lets do some fund raising and pay the GSUSA to experiment with mixing genders. Barry

Why can't we asked the Girls Scouts to experiment first? Barry

YES, I DO. I won't get into the program issues that are causing the "bleeding" in this discussion because it is not the subject. We have had that discussion many times on this forum. I will say that the bleeding will not stop by adding another source of membership, it will just keep bleeding. If the true motivation here is to fix the program, adding the extreme complexity of a whole different demographic source is not reasonable approach. The challenge of this discussion is being honest with our motivations for adding girls to the program. Barry

Well we didn't end up doing this, but we did a lot of research into separate programs under one troop and the results weren't very good. Three out of the four programs changed back to one single program. First, logistics is a killer. The troops would require either meeting on separate nights or in separate meeting places. Either way the adults are being pulled hard, especially the SM. The committee is pulled in several different directions as well. Imagine the challenge of finding enough adults for one functioning troop committee, now you have to double or triple. In our research, the scouts do ok because they are in patrols anyways, so it's not that big of change. But, troops are adult programs for guiding youth toward men of character. Even in the most boy run programs, success and failure is dependent on the adults. What we found is that the programs become lopsided very quickly because skills of the adults will tend favor one program over the other. Not on purpose, it just worked out that way with the adults of the programs I researched. The SM burns out quickly as well as the adults on his staff and the committee who tend to work the needs of both programs trying to keep their heads above water. While boy run becomes more of a challenge as the troop grows, working it under a single program of skilled adults is easier than dividing the groups up. And, I personally found the scouts come up with some pretty good ideas themselves when you let them go. Also, there is one other consideration, depending how far the unit wants to take it. Many of the families in our troop heard about our research and informed us that they joined the program that we had, not a program that might be split. They would consider taking their son and their adult volunteering time and leave for another troop. Yes, it's complicated. Barry

So you are saying that there is something wrong with the present program that is causing a decline. The fix to the problem is adding girls to the same program with the same problem. Hmm, ok, there is no arguing with that kind of logic. Barry

Trust me, this is much harder to accomplish than you think when your program is the most popular in town. Our goal was to keep the number below 40. We tried all kinds of ideas to slow our growth, but we past 40 in our 3rd year. shesh, thinking back, boy run becomes very complicated when the troop grows that large that fast. Barry

This is exactly right. I believe all the advantages of one gender program are mostly diminished by puberty. I'm not even that concerned about girls in cubs except that I can't see how girls could be turned away after Webelos. So, instead of fighting that battle, I would rather keep the program as is and let girls join at the Venturing age. Barry

I wasn't asking you or those who think like to reconsider, I never thought you would because your reasoning isn't based from experiences or facts. I only wanted you to understand there is a lot at stake here. You say your reasons are clear, but there is nothing clear in the simple statement that girls would add strength to the program. I can state examples why I believe female leaders took away strength from the program. I'm not sure you could give examples otherwise. In fact, history is on my side. The program will take a hit and not recover for some time. History shows that. Is it worth it for the theory of adding strength? That is all I ask. And, I don't think you have a sneeky ulterior motive, I think you are being up front. But your reasoning is not pragmatic, it's more emotionally based. Is that self-serving, oh I don't know. I wasn't thinking that. Experts in human behavior say almost 90 percent prepubescent behavior growth occurs by observing role models. Role models of the same gender have a higher impact on that growth. Adding girls, and female leaders in a youth program ages 14 and under dilutes that impact of growth on boys side of the program. Oh I know troops already have female leaders, but adding girls will increase the balance heavier to female role models. Same with the girls side. Male role models don't have the same influence on behavior growth for young girls as female role models. This isn't even getting into the complications of logistics for patrol method. But I don't think it's a reach, even if the patrols do camp 300 feet apart. Barry

I believe it. I know of parents who didn't care one way or the other about gays scouts, they just didn't want to be involved in an organization with a political spotlight on it. While I believe the BSA program is the best youth organization around for building citizens of character and leaders of integrity, it is not the only game in town. Barry

Because the cost of required plumbing and equipment closed some camps. And because of the previous membership changes, many councils don't have the donations they once had. Wow! Sounds like a pretty politically correct approach to convincing folks like me who believe that changing membership reduces the growth my son would benefit by not changing. This was the same reasoning used for accepting gays. I get the feeling you don't really care about program membership strength, you are just reaching. The only scout program that has as many members after a major membership change is the Boy Scouts in Great Britton. And it took 30 years to get there. Imagine how many scouts they would have now if they had done nothing. I could go on with your other theories, but here is the problem I see, I believe that admitting girls will slowly dissolve the advantages boys would have with an all boy troop. I't s not touchy feely theories, I worked the program long enough that I can't see how girls maintains the same program quality, much less improve it. So I ask, if there is even a slight risk that boys will loose some growth potential as a result of adding female scouts and scouters, is it worth it to you? I don't really care about your answer, it's more of a question for you to ponder to learn your real motivation for wanting girls in the Boy Scout program. Barry

What I'm guessing will happen is the cub scouts will get the fair share of the girls. When those girls crossover, just taking boys will become difficult for many reasons. Barry

Well first let me speak for the large number of new scouts. Our experience was very much like your experience, so here is what we learned. Anytime a troop jumps 40% in size, the program is starting over again. I know that seems kind of extreme, but neither the adults or scouts are used to the dynamics of so many members with zero knowledge or experience in your troop. Over the years, our experienced scouts would say the worst behaving scout in the troop is the new scout. When half the troop is new scouts, behavior can quickly get out of control. So prepare the scouts that new scouts like chatter, wonder around, talk while others are talking and even disappear (going to bathroom without anyone noticing). Double up the Troop Guides. We even had a Troop Guide ASPL who was responsible for making sure the NSPs had enough TGs. Teach the adults to stand back far enough to let the TGs work, but close enough for scouts to ask for help if their situation becomes impossible. The adults will be tempted to step in, and they need too, but in most cases the scouts get it figured out. Adults should never make the first move in any situation. Let the scouts deal with it and ask for help if they need it. Keep the new scouts busy. We found that teaching the new scouts how to use camping equipment for their first campout was a good way (fun) of indoctrinating them into the the Troop program. They get to practice with real troop gear (very cool for them), and the experience allows the troop guides time to build confidence working with these wild monkeys, and building a personal relationship (just learning names takes time). NSPs that struggle the most are the ones where the scouts do the most sitting. After about a month, they will settle down. Consider NOW the logistics of your troop. Is the meeting place big enough? Do you have enough drivers? How about patrol equipment? Our new troop of 15 scout got 25 new scouts the next year. We lost half those scouts in three months because our adults stumbled around reacting to the new size instead of getting a head of it. Scouts run the program, but the adults are in a panic, the scouts will feel it. So react with confidence that a new problem is a good problem. Oh, remember, last years summer camp site will be too small this year. Work hand in hand and as a team with the PLC for working out ideas, situations and problems. The PLC will be grateful for the help, and grow a lot in maturity for the responsibility. The more they do, the more your troop will mature. Next year will be a lot easier for them. That's it for right now, I'm sure I can think of a lot more if you need. Our troop took grew 40 to 60% each year for the first seven years after starting. We are boy run troop, so we weren't looking for that kind of growth. At least not that fast. We learned A LOT. As for considering the health of the other troops, That is a very noble approach. Well done. If I were you, I would invite the SM and CC of the other troops over for refreshments and cookies to discuss your concern. I would practice how you will start the discussion so that you don't come off condescending as the troop receiving such a large new group. Instead speak in the big picture of the health of the troops and how to approach the keeping some balance. Maybe consider a Troop night night where all troops set up a booth and display at at church or school. Or a day where the troops set up a patrol campsite to allow the Webelos to visit and ask questions. But more importantly is for all the troops to maintain a good relationship so these matters can be easily discussed. Be aware that the unit leaders might not feel as noble and instead have more ambitious ideas. I had to deal with a lot of, lets say, overly zealous unit recruiting while I was on district. They don't see themselves as doing anything wrong. Still I admire your troops attitude and think it's worth a try. I hope this helps a little. Barry

Good question. The Aims are the down in the trenches unit goals the adults use to help the scouts toward the BSA Mission. The BSA Mission is preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. And sure, the Mission is not specific to a gender, but Mission goals has it's most influence toward growth when the genders are separated. At least at the troop age where using the Eight Methods is specified for the troop program. We talk about "boys becoming men" because this is after all the Boy Scouts. But I expect Girl Scout leaders talk about "girls becoming women". Barry

This is how I use the adult association in our troop when I was Scoutmaster: I personally feel young adult scouts and Scouter age adults should confer with each other as a team of adults instead of a mix of scouts and scouters. I would like that attitude for all troop scout ages, but certainly the Eagle scouts. In the bigger picture, I believe living the Scout Oath and Law requires each scout and scouter to consider the needs, expectations, and abilities of the whole group, so as not to limit themselves. That is why I welcome scouts to include adults as part of their bag of resources for their patrol activities. Young adults need to respect the benefits of older adults, and older adults need to respect young adults as equals with less of life's experiences. Barry

Why do I think this is bad.... Oh yah, I call it equality through mediocrity. But Latin Scot said it much more eloquently. Barry

Our NYLT (actually JLTC at the time) was also scout run when I was the Council JLT chairman. While the scouts learned a lot from the experience, it didn't help the problem of Scoutmasters understanding what the scouts learned. That is why we added the required adult part of the course. Barry

Moderate, or moderator. I've known you on this forum a long time NJ, moderate would lean toward exaggeration. And I think it is also why you can't tolerate letting the discussions get too political. As for the "This movement is about taking down religious, male, conservative institutions." quote; a gay activist organizer said that exact same thing to me in 1993. I thought ridiculous at the time. Barry

Oh I know, but we also found that scouts behave differently when their adults pass by. They enjoy a break from their troop adults. I'm not against the idea and I do think it is good idea that works. I wish all troop adults could have the experience.