Eagledad

Well wait a minute, what about the local option? Here is a different question: On the pretense of sexual attraction, would it be alright for male and female scouts sleep in the same tent? With that being asked, since gay males are sexually attracted to males, shouldn't the other scouts know the scout is gay so they understand the sexuality of their relationship during the activities, and tenting arrangements? I don't know because I have no experience in this area. Barry

Well, I guess families will have some different definitions of innocence. When I read your list, I see the adults in your life acting in "your" best interest in what they exposed you to. I think that is about defined as I can get it. Yes I know this is extreme, but there was a recent article in the paper about a 20 year old father (they think he is the father, maybe not) who killed the three week old infant of the 13 year old mother. The mother asked the father to kill her baby. I can't comprehend any part of the situation. I had to read the article three times to get the ages right. Somehow I don't think there were any adults in any of these kids lives that were acting in their best interest, ever. Barry

Same as any adult who exploits children for a personal gain. Barry

As I'm watching mothers proudly walk with their eight year old daughters at anti-abortion marchs on the news, I think to myself, "adults today don't allow our children any innocence". The adults in our troop allow the scouts their privacy in their tents. That's not a big deal when the adults are camped 300 ft away. But it's not uncommon to set tents next to each other in the back county on high adventure treks. It amazes me that scouts think their tents are sound proof. Sadly, sex is a political football in todays culture, so it is a typical topic of discussion for just about everyone of school ages. Is it really reasonable to not expect these discussions among scouts? As an aside; do you think the mother has explained to her eight year old daughter that mom is fighting for the right to kill her daughters pre-born brothers and sisters? Makes me wonder just how far children are willing to trust their parents to raise them right. Barry

I'm speaking at a high level of the organization making decisions for their volunteers, but OK. Here is a hypothetical for you, real life experience for me. A new scout joins the troop who absolutely loves the program. Dad, who is an Eagle, is excited to volunteer as well. However, mom and dad are in the middle of a fierce divorce. Mom uses scouts to make her son do things against his dad, and to force dad to make tough decisions about his relationship with his son. Every time scouting comes up in any way, son is caught in the middle of a loud discussion. Do you have any moral opinion or judgement of the situation, or more importantly your position as a leader (scoutmaster for me) in that situation? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. Mom puts her son in scouting because she really believe the experience does develop better habits of character. Dad thinks scouting is for sissies and tells his son that every time he puts on a uniform. Is there a moral opinion here? Judgment? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. You, the Scoutmaster, get call by the police in the middle of the night to help in a domestic call of child abuse. Seems the abused child's brother ask for help from the only person he trust, his scoutmaster. This does not set well with the parents. The overall situation raises to a level that the family disappears that week, never to be found again. Loaded their car and left everything. Why do so many people think that not having a moral opinion or not judging is more noble? I honestly don't understand. Barry

I think that anyone suggesting that this discussion is all about defending tradition hasn't been reading the discussion. If we have to put the discussion in simple terms, I would say quality vs. quantity. Barry

Immoral? Yes, in the context of mental and physical harm. If someone starts on an un-natural lifestyle path as a result of adult choices that weren't in that childs best interest, I believe putting them in an environment that further encourages their lifestyle is abuse. The BSA is putting volunteers in responsibilities where they could risk further harm. So yes, that is immoral to me. Barry

Anytime a child feels unsafe as the result of an adults self-serving action, they feel betrayed. Barry

1 Corinthians 13:7 "Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." You and I have a different definition of what support and harm means in raising children. In my lifetime I found that children feel a kind of horror when they are betrayed by the adults they trusted. It changes them and while they may recover (revert?), it never goes away. I have said here before that I believe that loneliness is the major cause for most of people who choose unnatural paths of a life. Adults have an obligation to raise children in the way they should go. For me, the way they should go is God. But at the very least, it's respect. Barry

Yes, you are of course correct NJ. I only used the source as a way of expressing why I appose the BSAs policy on this subject. I'm sure my previous post are consistent. It's a moral perspective for me, but I guess it's also conservative, which sadly makes it political as well. Barry

Yes, I also stated the same opinion during our gay scout discussions. I've heard enough personal stories of gays switching back to heterosexual to still feel strongly about it. I'm not suggesting more debate, I only submitted the article because it expresses my feelings better than I can that the BSA is putting adults in harms way. Barry

I ran on to this quite by accident. I have been saying that allowing transgender youth puts BSA adults at the risk of adding more harm to the youth. This article discusses my concern. American College of Pediatricians: ‘Transgender’ Conditioning Is ‘Child Abuse’http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/j-matt-barber/american-college-pediatricians-transgender-conditioning-child-abuse

Pretty sure we can get that on U-Tube.

I guess. I'm an engineer and you ask a broad question without a lot of details. Would that be like asking the BSA and GSUSA to meet at the same time so the whole family can come at the same time? Barry

And you are willing to risk that? It is better to copy a good thing than to change it. Barry

So you want to pile-on, is that it? Barry

Well, I think it is a lot more than that, but if everyone is fighting to change the BSA rather than the GSUSA and just plain ignoring the co-gender Campfire kids program, it must have a pretty good tradition. Barry

At first I thought this was a unique idea worth thinking about. After thinking about it, what would the program be? Adventure? Isn't that what the troop is supposed to be? OK, maybe it is adventure without the Eight Methods of Scouting, but then who plans and leads the program? I know Adventure Scouts are supposed to plan and lead their program, but now we are talking about 10 year olds. My objection to the changes we are discussing for the present program is that it's turning it into an after school camping program. I think this Venturing idea does exactly that. I like my idea better, lets do some fund raising and pay the GSUSA to experiment with mixing genders. Barry

Why can't we asked the Girls Scouts to experiment first? Barry

YES, I DO. I won't get into the program issues that are causing the "bleeding" in this discussion because it is not the subject. We have had that discussion many times on this forum. I will say that the bleeding will not stop by adding another source of membership, it will just keep bleeding. If the true motivation here is to fix the program, adding the extreme complexity of a whole different demographic source is not reasonable approach. The challenge of this discussion is being honest with our motivations for adding girls to the program. Barry

Well we didn't end up doing this, but we did a lot of research into separate programs under one troop and the results weren't very good. Three out of the four programs changed back to one single program. First, logistics is a killer. The troops would require either meeting on separate nights or in separate meeting places. Either way the adults are being pulled hard, especially the SM. The committee is pulled in several different directions as well. Imagine the challenge of finding enough adults for one functioning troop committee, now you have to double or triple. In our research, the scouts do ok because they are in patrols anyways, so it's not that big of change. But, troops are adult programs for guiding youth toward men of character. Even in the most boy run programs, success and failure is dependent on the adults. What we found is that the programs become lopsided very quickly because skills of the adults will tend favor one program over the other. Not on purpose, it just worked out that way with the adults of the programs I researched. The SM burns out quickly as well as the adults on his staff and the committee who tend to work the needs of both programs trying to keep their heads above water. While boy run becomes more of a challenge as the troop grows, working it under a single program of skilled adults is easier than dividing the groups up. And, I personally found the scouts come up with some pretty good ideas themselves when you let them go. Also, there is one other consideration, depending how far the unit wants to take it. Many of the families in our troop heard about our research and informed us that they joined the program that we had, not a program that might be split. They would consider taking their son and their adult volunteering time and leave for another troop. Yes, it's complicated. Barry

So you are saying that there is something wrong with the present program that is causing a decline. The fix to the problem is adding girls to the same program with the same problem. Hmm, ok, there is no arguing with that kind of logic. Barry

Trust me, this is much harder to accomplish than you think when your program is the most popular in town. Our goal was to keep the number below 40. We tried all kinds of ideas to slow our growth, but we past 40 in our 3rd year. shesh, thinking back, boy run becomes very complicated when the troop grows that large that fast. Barry

This is exactly right. I believe all the advantages of one gender program are mostly diminished by puberty. I'm not even that concerned about girls in cubs except that I can't see how girls could be turned away after Webelos. So, instead of fighting that battle, I would rather keep the program as is and let girls join at the Venturing age. Barry

I wasn't asking you or those who think like to reconsider, I never thought you would because your reasoning isn't based from experiences or facts. I only wanted you to understand there is a lot at stake here. You say your reasons are clear, but there is nothing clear in the simple statement that girls would add strength to the program. I can state examples why I believe female leaders took away strength from the program. I'm not sure you could give examples otherwise. In fact, history is on my side. The program will take a hit and not recover for some time. History shows that. Is it worth it for the theory of adding strength? That is all I ask. And, I don't think you have a sneeky ulterior motive, I think you are being up front. But your reasoning is not pragmatic, it's more emotionally based. Is that self-serving, oh I don't know. I wasn't thinking that. Experts in human behavior say almost 90 percent prepubescent behavior growth occurs by observing role models. Role models of the same gender have a higher impact on that growth. Adding girls, and female leaders in a youth program ages 14 and under dilutes that impact of growth on boys side of the program. Oh I know troops already have female leaders, but adding girls will increase the balance heavier to female role models. Same with the girls side. Male role models don't have the same influence on behavior growth for young girls as female role models. This isn't even getting into the complications of logistics for patrol method. But I don't think it's a reach, even if the patrols do camp 300 feet apart. Barry