Eagledad

That's very interesting Eagle, thanks. My wife was a leader in the GSUSA while I was a Scoutmaster, so it was easy to compare. She didn't last long because the program just had no point. When she tried to run her troop like a BSA troop, she was stopped by the higher leadership. If the BSA wanted to partner with a Girls program, Campfire would be the way to go because the program closely resembled the BSA. They have been struggling with membership ever since they opened up to gays. Campfire was at the time a very values and traditional program. It didn't hold well to liberal progressivism. I don't know how they are doing today, but we haven't seen Campfire candy sells for a long time. Barry

When I took my kids to the local Scoutorama, the first place they ran to was the Pioneering area with the 3 story tower and 2 story rope bridge. Boys can build that! Pioneering was a lot easier in the days without self supporting tents, tarps and elaborate camp cook boxes. Even tripods struggle with wash basins near latrines and stoves replacing campfires. Technology has replace the need for knowing the proper knots for more comfortable camping. Pioneering towers and bridges help romanticize the skills that boys in general find boring. A clever SM then uses imagination to push the scouts a little further with visions of gadgets and camp aids. Barry

I admire CCs who value the program because they are more responsible for program quality than most realize. Basically the CC is responsible for bringing in the right volunteers to support the vision. Mot CCs just fill in vacancies, but the good ones recruit specific talent for specific responsibilities. That being said, volunteer sources are limited. Most units do the best they can with the resources they have. When I was at my prime as a "boy run" "Patrol Method" leader of a very successful program, I in my arrogance and immaturity believe every troop should be like ours and that any troop that wasn't like ours was a failure. Then I was recruited to volunteer for district where I was responsible for membership and unit quality. I learned over the years that if the families are satisfied with the program and believe they are getting their monies worth, the unit was as high quality as mine. It just had a different style that match the style of the fine adults leading it. I don't know your resources or the quality of your program, but I think you as the CC are asking the right questions to understand your situation better. Good job and I hope you find a way to work your concerns. Lots of us are here to help, but your the one on the ground and your unit is better for you. Barry

The BSA was loosing membership even before the recent membership policy changes as a result of a program structure that makes managing a unit challenging for volunteers. I have said many times that the sensible way to work the problem is fix the internal issues first. OK, that doesn't seem to be the path National is taking. So, in my mind, bringing girls (family) into the program is like the Titanic taking on more passengers with baling buckets. Even in the best case scenario, the girls membership will eventually level out leaving the program with the same internal problems that is causing the present membership to leave. In other words, bringing in girls to save the program is only a temporary solution. Barry

You know, I wished I had thought of that. There is training for rappelling, swimming and boating. Why not Pioneering! I like it. Barry

Anyone that watched the GSUSA over the last 40 or 50 years noticed that the organization has a lot of support from the womens rights groups. Way to much in some peoples' opinion. However, the GSUSA was noticeably silent during the BSA gay drama when they have the weight to apply pressure. Nothing official, but the rumors were that so long as the BSA stayed away from the GSUSA membership, the ladies would play nice. I wonder if we are about to see weight of their influence. So, on a different note; I don't know how these things work at the National level, but is there anything that shows the public who works for National and describes their responsibilities? Can't the volunteers apply any pressure for accountability? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Barry

The Y-M-C-A song keeps going through my mind. When I was a District Membership Chair 18 years ago, Counsel was working with all the membership chairs to recruit more high school age youth in the program for "after school" activities. I forget the name of that program, but it didn't go well. This sure sounds familiar. Another aspect of this I'm curious about is the religious sponsorships. Originally for the Methodist, the Boy Scout program was sponsored by the men's division of the church. I wonder what they are thinking. Along with that, scouts are presently not welcome in schools as a result of the atheist membership restriction. The older youth program I was talking about didn't have the restriction, so the BSA was working with the High Schools to get them more involved for "after school" activities. I have said for a long long time on this forum that the BSA will have to put less emphasis on the religious part of the program to maintain a liberal progressive direction. I know first hand that this was a set goal by gay activist back in the early 90's. Many youth scout programs around the world have taken god (or God) out of their program completely. Family! Of course family, like the YMCA family. On the plus side, maybe the BSA will add work out rooms to their camps so families can work on their physical fitness after work like the YMCA. Might be a good approach for attracting overweight Familyscoutmasters. I wonder what a Familyscoutmaster patch looks like. Barry

I used to compare notes with my Campfire USA Leader neighbor and feel they provide a better program than the BSA Cubs. In fact, I used a lot of the Camp Fire material while I was a Cub Master. There older scout program is pretty good too. Barry

Hmm, help me stosh, the key point of your theory isn't clear. The NSP and Venture Patrols didn't exist until 1990. What method of Scouts groups did Green Bar Bill (William Hillcourt) guide the Scoutmasters to use from the 1920s thru 1980s? Barry

I agree, if the troop program is strong, they aren't looking to change. We actually had several scouts join Venturing while staying active in the troop program so they could get twice the adventure. Typically these were our more active scouts. So yes, they fit both programs in nicely. I admit that I was one of those insecure adults early in my Scoutmaster career afraid of the Venturing program. But as our troop matured, so did my attitude toward other programs. I come around and welcomed OA and Venturing. Some boys just can get enough of this scouting stuff, so I was glad other opportunities where available. As I matured and started working with other troop leaders, I tried to guide them that if the scouts were leaving for Venturing, their troop program was the problem, not Venturing. But, successful Venturing programs were also hard to find in our area. The problem is generally the adults of lousy troop programs were the same adults of Venturing programs. And that just doesn't work well. The good Crews are still around. The not so good crews rarely made it past five years. Barry

Yep, gotta agree. A zebra with spots can't change to stripes. I've seen a SM and ASM equal side-by-side as a team working the same plan for the same goal. But the SM is still given respect for the final word. Good or bad, the SM is the gatekeeper of the vision and program, even it appears there is no vision and no program. If change is really wanted, the troop needs a new SM. Barry

A vision statement describes the organization as it would appear in a future successful state. Barry

Ah, I see. Barry

Your reply is complicated to my simplistic explanation. I would assume that the new SM has bought into the program in the OPs situation and has already developed some relationship with the PLC. However, this is where you and I differ in the program. I believe the Troop is an adult program used to develop boys into moral decision making adults. The adult leaders (usually the SM) have the vision for how the program works in developing the scouts into moral decision makers. Not the scouts. That being said, in our troop SM discusses the vision, mission, aims, methods, and scouting values for the program with each new PLC. Everyone knows whats going on and why and everyone is invited to request a change if the SM cannot justify how each part of the program works toward the goal. Barry

Yes, I agree that good role models of both genders is important at the Venturing age group (post puberty). The brain works differently for this age and not only is it important to have good role models of both genders, but the scouts are now biologically adults and should be treated as such. Which I know is your style of leading. This is the age where male and female role models show how well adults (both scouts and adults) work together. Personally I like Venturing Crew adults and youth working closer together to represent a team as apposed to adults and youth. The adults have a specific responsibility different from the youth, but that doesn't mean they don't work together to accomplish a common goal. We worked with our senior scouts somewhat the same way when pushing them in more of ASM roles. Barry

Most new Scoutmasters start with idealism and a vision. The idealism blinds them from outside advice until experience beats them up a little. Good ASMs stand back in the shadows waiting for a quiet moment to ask if they could help. If you see the SM getting overwhelmed in a situation, volunteer to take a task to lesson the chaos to give him room to think. Don't add a new idea to the confusion. ASMs help the SM melt their idealism into wisdom without changing their vision. Barry

Role models. Role models are key for boys to learn behavior and same gender role models magnify that growth. Barry

At what point in the program do your adults feel the scouts are no longer kids who do stupid things? Barry

What is the etiquette for a scout contacting a MB Counselor or the fly-fishing speaker for the September meeting? Barry

Hmm, morally bankrupt. Coming from someone who admits little patience with religion or God, I don't know what that means. I'm sure you are a pleasant fello in person. As for the rest of your post, I didn't say nor imply any of those thoughts. However, I have been consistent in saying that many here are willing to sacrifice program quality to go coed. Yes, I think for some parents, going coed is a willing sacrifice for convenience. For some it is a willing trade for cultural ideology. And for some the sacrifice is the price for balancing the economics. All I ask for is honesty in these discussion while defending your position. I believe Boy Scouts to be the best program for building men of character and leaders of integrity. I have been a youth leader, sports coach, and a Scout leader. I fully appreciate the challenges of helping youth mature, and I believe the Scout program is one of the best designs for getting adults up to speed to develop young boys into mature moral decision makers. Anyone who reads my post here knows I am passionate about the growth these young men get from the program. And as a result, I very much believe that the willingness to sacrifice any part of the program is self-serving and nothing less. Barry

The rumor was fueled not to long after National implemented the New Scout Patrol and Venture Patrol. The NSP starts troops in the direction of segregated age based patrols on a natural easy path of moving to aged based programs like Venture Patrols or even Venturing Crews. I once ask a professional about the rumor and his response was he had not heard that, but it could easily be one of a flurry of ideas thrown out at National. If I were to guess why the program hasn't gone that direction (if National were truly thinking of going that path), it would because 2/3 of newly created Venturing crews fail in their first five years. Simple economics. Barry

Makes sense. There was also a rumor about 20 years ago that National planned to end the troop program at age 14, thus forcing scouts who wanted to continue scouting into Venturing. Going coed would make that an easier policy change. Barry

Scouting is the only place for a youth to learn how to interact with diverse groups? Youth spend their whole day interacting with diverse groups. Where does it say that scouting's goals are to teach interacting with diverse groups? Scouting's goals are to guide young men in the habit of using law and oath in all their decisions "ALL THE TIME AND TO ALL PEOPLE. I am convinced by my personal observations that a moral decent mannered "role model" has far more impact on a boy developing habits of a moral decent mannered person to all people then mixing that same boy in diverse groups hoping for the same conclusion. Of course the answer is making sure even coed programs have moral decent mannered role models. But as I learned and witnessed, human nature doesn't have the equal respect for opposite gender role models. It's a simple truth that women are different from men. Learning those difference in the nurturing atmosphere with the proper role model encourages the kinds of natural behavior that is required for a positive interaction. I detest the implication that single gender organizations are morally wrong as suggest by many so call progressive minded idealist. I detest the idea that a single gender youth organization is less capable of building men of integrity. And I detest the sacrifice of a program that can have so much impact on a boy going into manhood simply because of pop-culture idealism. I also detest allowing a small group of individuals to direct this change in a program with the tradition of building integrity in its youth without feeling any accountability is required. Barry

Apologies on the commas. I don't think the vast majority here believe that, but it was mentioned by a few active scouters. Which is why the discussion it bizarre to me. How can adults who really think that Boy Scouts is bad for boys become Scout leaders. Trolls maybe. Scouting works very well when it is used as designed. But I truly wonder how many units today function as designed. I sure don't feel any love from National with their support. Maybe it's right for the BSA to turn into an after school camping program at this time him our culture because it seems to have lost its soul. I hope the name is changed so that we scouts and scouters of this program can identify our experience under different specific program. Barry