Leaderboard

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free. Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact. Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness. Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no. Quite the opposite. Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure. The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." Do the units supporting these get good training? Absolutely. Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives? Absolutely. Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree? Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

In my opinion this is a sign of burnout in the leadership. In my opinion you want to meet every week unless a holiday falls exactly on the meeting day. What I have seen personally is that units who are looking for these excuses are suffering burnout in the leadership. The two week gap screams to me that the leadership is burned out and that their scouts are probably in a situation where they don't need the meetings to advance so it's just a burden meeting to those families.

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade. You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't. I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test. Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!" Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again." <Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.> Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates> <Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?" Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again. Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers." <Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.> <Wash, rinse, repeat.> At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders. Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.) 1. You learn. ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..." 2. You are tested. "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement." I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill. There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery. I am only responsible for what I do.

Why cant they do the SMC prior to the BOR? In many units I have been in, that has been the case.

IMHO, Scouting America should ask well-spoken Robert Gates, former president of the Boy Scouts of America and Secretary of Defense for Presidents Bush and Obama to respond.

Your idea isn't new; the BSA has made these kinds of promises since the creation of the program. I do agree that at this age, cost isn't as much of an issue as the cub program, but a results-based program is very subjective. And most of the time the adults go the easy route of Eagle for their results-based program. However, youth at this age aren't advancement-driven. I found that most Eagle-driven programs lose 70% of their scouts by age 15 because advancement gets boring. Adventure-driven programs thrive because they are fun in the outdoors, and because independence in the patrol method drives more maturity in their growth. Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating. Barry

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry

That's the risk of pouring millions into improvements of a property you don't own.

During COVID, we did our own summer camp for 5 days. Forgot how much it was, but it was under $100/person. Only out of pocket expense for the Scouts was the stop at the Hardees for shakes during the bike ride. We came up with different activities for the Scouts to do: cycling, canoeing, wilderness survival, emergency first aid drill, and the schedule was flexible, except for Thursday Night Dinner. We had troop committee visit to do BORs. The Scouts had a blast, and many said it was the best summer camp ever. But they didn't want to do it again because, "we didn't earn any merit badges." My kids were included in that. And yes, BSA shot itself in the foot on this matter. They are the ones that pushed advancement and getting Eagle.

Woke is not a real thing; just a hot button prod. Simple adherence to the Scout Law, Oath, and so on is not Woke, just civility and basic kindness for others, no matter their beliefs or how they may look, o what their name are. Ignorance held up by stupidity and sheeple.

Found this on Sam Houston Area Council website: Family Troops The National Executive Board for Scouting America approved the implementation of the combined troop option. The family troop option will become available to all chartering organizations as a third option on December 15, 2025. The chartered organization must be a part of the discussion to decide to change to a family troop, and they must approve the decision to change the model. Troops will continue to be able to organize as boy troops and girl troops. Resources: Converting from a Family Troop (3 page pdf) Family Troop Best Practices (5 page pdf) Family Troop Decision Guide (5 page pdf)

I cringed when I read the term "Family Troop". My initial reaction was, "there's the final nail in the coffin of the Patrol Method".

We are not making participation mandatory for Scouts or parents. In Scouting, there really isn't "skin in the game" unless you want to put it there. Yes, this is it. When I had the reins of the Troop, we went camping every month, with two or three big events every summer... 50-miler backpacking trips, week-long beach adventures, 50-miler canoeing, 100+ mile cycling trips, etc. Now that I have pulled back a lot from the Troop, there is no one who is willing to put that much effort into the program. So, the numbers are dwindling. Agree with you wholeheartedly... young men want adventure, not academics.

It is dying. And the majority of folks do not want to put quality control measures. They want 'High Speed, Low Drag" advancement and increasing the number of Eagle Scouts. They would rather celebrate the 13 or 14 year old with all 130+MBs than the troop that is doing trail work on the AT, or the troop running Red Cross evac stations.

I do wonder what the "Actual" BSA National Numbers are at this point. Nobody really knows. Nobody knows where to get the information. Most people have stopped asking. Main success is judged by funds raised. Most of our council staff is focused on getting cash, to support all the staff that is raising cash. In our district we have and continue to lose troops and packs, but not sure there is any effort to save any of them or figure a way to stem the tide. We have not witnessed an actual DE or other council staff in the wild in forever. It's not that we have a bad relationship, that would infer our units actually knew who they were, we literally have no relationship. There are maybe 20 units in the district (though I think less) and one would assume they may come by annually to see what's up. In the end BSA (sorry SA) will likely not end with a bang, it will just not be around the professionals that were supposed to be the managers and provide vision will go raise money elsewhere.

I'm doubling down on my "Eagle Scouts who can't congratulate a new Eagle without making it about themselves and mentioning that they are an Eagle" pet peeve to now also include non-Scouters who just know an Eagle personally and seem to be afflicted with the same condition. The comment below was on a post announcing a new Eagle Scout and the commenter didn't even bother to offer any kind of congratulations or accolades and jumped straight to making it about themselves (and their husband).

Thank you so much for sharing this! We are the writers of this book, and we are happy to chat with Scouts and volunteers about this new series. You're the real heroes of our story!

Encourage you to do this! Our Scouts chose to do a week long Troop camp in lieu of an "corporate" Summer Camp. Scouts planned menus and cooked all meals themselves, by patrol. We rotated those duties so each Scout could either finish the requirements for First Class, or complete Cooking Merit Badge, if First Class was already done. We rented a private island in a nearby river, Sunday afternoon to Saturday at noon. Included archery (IAW BSA rules 😛 ), canoes with all gear, and a 4 hour float trip on the river (with transportation). Adults taught Archery. Wilderness Survival, Cooking, Fishing, Motorboating, and we even offered Environmental Science, but had no takers... Scouts loved playing in the river every day (with life jackets on). We went off island daily for fresh water and to renew our reusable ice packs. Each patrol brought their food for the first few days, and went went off island for shopping trips on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. Scouts had a great campfire on Friday night where each Patrol did a Song, a skit, and a cheer. It was one of the best campfire programs I have seen in all my years. And the average cost was $303.40 per head. (Some patrols cost more or less, depending on the food they shopped for.) That is less than half the cost of "corporate" Summer Camp fees in our area. If we could find a place to camp for free, then your number checks... it would have cost us about $75 per head. If you can do a week program for $71 per head, the go for it!!!

I am starting to think that Scouting has done this to itself. Scouting is without a doubt significantly cheaper than club sports (which some estimates state are growing at as high as 43% year-over-year for membership); however, summer camp is expensive, way more expensive than a troop setting up it's own 7 day long term camp. I can simply not blame a parent for wanting their scouts to come home from any resident camp scenario with maximum merit badges and awards. Over the last 3 years, summer camp has cost me $350-$500 a head depending on the year/specific resident camp. I know for a fact that I can feed the scouts like kings and set up a 7 day camping experience at a state park for $71 a head. At the same time the Camping MB and OA eligibility require long term camping, not resident camping. My kids and I might stop going to summer camp after 2026; they are getting tired of the experience, and I am getting tired of the price and lack of ROI. My youngest would rather go on a family based wilderness campout, my middle kid would prefer cooking higher quality meals for himself, my oldest is sick of all the younger scouts, and I can't believe how horrible the cost to return ratio is. Summer camp 2026 is going to cost my family $1600 and a week of missed work (if we even go in 2026, my oldest is currently pitching a competing national park trip to my other two 😛 ).

The BOR is NOT the place to correct for years of advancement failures. ... If a lower advancement standard has been used for years, then it's too generally too late. The BOR checks if the requirements were signed off ... and to encourage the scout ... and to collect feedback on how the troop advancement program is doing. My apologies if I sound harsh, but if we criticize the scout's advancement at the BOR, then we are really criticizing the troop advancement program for the last few years. Each rank had many requirements to be met and that the troop designated approver signed off on. The SM (and his team) should have been watching. Merit Badges are only one part of a larger more complex set of requirements. ... AND, sometimes a scout (and his parents) game the system beyond the controls of the troop leadership. It's ok to be sad for the scout, but not necessarily mad about.

100% agree. ... Could have some adjustments such as Dakotas could be one council to save cost. Or Dakotas + Nebraska. ... Or one per state to keep it simple.

If I can find it, I will post a pic of my Beavis and Butthead OA flap from 1994 NOAC.

Wish we would go back to these: Those would never change. (Well, almost never...)

The reality is that BOR really are a feedback session. The board should ask questions to the scout to gauge their experience; so instead of "Here's a rope, how do you tie a bowline?" the question should be "Tell us about the last time you tied a bowline and why you did it?"

My troop folds at the end of the month. But we survived over 15 years without a Cub Scout pack because we focused on fun and adventure. Almost all of out scouts since the pack folded were either already members, or transferred from other troops. Those troops are now dead. The remaining ones got smart and started being more youth led and adventure driven, while focusing less on advancement. Basically they became more like us. Fun and adventure retains Scouts. And prior to national denigrating 18-20 yos, we retained young ASMs. This is coming from folks with education backgrounds without any experience in Scouting. This is folks focusing on one thing that is easily trackable, advancement. Instead of asking Scouts what they want, they use their theories to create program. The entire reason why Scouting took off was because BP created a program on the desires of the youth.

I would rather a troop not have a "meeting" if they are doing a different activity that week. Meetings are there to support the program; most of the program exists (or should) outside of those meetings. IMO Scouting has dropped off b/c there is too much focus on the meetings, and classroom stuff and not enough in the out of outdoors. When scouting is too much like school with some weekend field-trips then it isn't scouting. Retention and engagement metrics in an adult-led, classroom style program is bad data.

I don't know. I told him to immediately hit up the SM for an SMC on Tuesday and then we'll try to knock out both BORs.

Well, I know this one won't drop - he's mine. I retired from the Army this month, so now dad has plenty of time to support him in Scouting. His best friend (who became his First Class requirement 10) also has a retired guardian, so they are hitting as many Scouting events, with or without the troop, as we can.

We got notification that there will be Boards of Review this Tuesday. It's starting to feel like there's an intent to hold him back. Normally the BOR night is the second Tuesday. The plan was for him to have his SM conference this Tues so he's ready to go next Tues. All of a sudden, the BOR gets moved up a week, so he can only do Second Class, even though all he needs for First Class is the SM conference.

Hard to say. If they have the fortitude to stand up to the ignorance that continues to grow out of this sorry administration, maybe. Not going to hold my breath though.

We are potentially making much ado about nothing here. As outlined in another post, this is a leaked draft memo that could amount to a whole lot of nothing. When SECWAR or POTUS comment on it, or you see a memo with a signature on it, then it will mean something.

So the support for JAMBO is not something the department of war can just withdraw; there is a process and it has to clear congress; the actual law is that the US military has to support JAMBO at least at the level of the previous JAMBOs support. As I understand it the only way out is if we are at war and well ... we just fought 2 wars while also supporting like 10 peacekeeping forces, while also fighting a good 2 dozen "low intensity" engagements; that whole time the military was able to support JAMBO. Not thinking JAMBO support goes away. Prohibiting scouts on military installations will go no-where. First of all just plain stupid and no way enforceable considering that the US military lets all kinds of youth groups onto installations. Secondly garrison commanders have an EXTREME amount of authority as to what they allow or do not allow to happen on their bases and there are just too many military facilities out there. Toss in any potential pivot of USO to support the scouts at the troops urging. Just not worried about this at all; it's like a made up micro managing issue. In my recruiting days Eagle Scouts came in as E4; it was only 1 extra piece of paperwork and no hair off our backs to get that done for the rare enlistee that was an Eagle Scout. If your Eagle Scout is being offered less than E4 you need to take them to a different recruiter that can be bothered to press print and then sign and date a piece of paper.

In my neck of the woods, we've been doing this since I was a youth. General rule is if school is closed, we do not meet (which includes days the schools close because of snow). Over the summer we meet once for summer camp prep, then summer camp, then the rest of the summer is PLC planning meeting, and a few day events (fishing derby, troop outing to an amusement park, swim night at one of our family's house or at the YMCA, movie night, a day hike, etc. - whatever the PLC agrees on, more social gathering/engagement than skill/advancement focused. Still had the PLC/Senior Scouts in charge of planning details and lead supervision at these events. While I could understand momentum loss could result, it has always been for us more of a short time of fun getting ready for the work to return for another year= understood that way by both youth and adults. Additionally, when your own kid(s) hit the age that they are working at camp all summer, and OA starts up before school does, there's enough Scouting to never really have so much of the break that others were having.

We just had this discussion at a leaders meeting... Our Committee Chair is going to communicate with parents about this and try to tell them something to this effect... "If your son does not want to go to Scouts, please do not force him. This is detrimental to all of us, and your Scout will only wind up resenting you. Let them choose, please."

Some units just follow local school district calendars because it affects meeting locations or, for certain families, school holiday closures affect child care, transportation, etc. It's not new or linked to burnout. It's just local convention in some places.

I did not think of that. Good point. Perhaps a push for more Patrol outings instead of troop focus is in order. Depending on patrol makeup, this might mitigate the problem.?

Here's where I see trouble with this model - from the files posted: We should ensure no Scouts are excluded from events due to lack of appropriate adult volunteer leadership. If, despite best efforts, an event or outing lacks appropriate adult volunteer leadership, it should be canceled rather than excluding any youth. This has the potential to be severely damaging. No females volunteer to go on an outing, it gets cancelled. The boys blame girls for being in the program and causing them to miss out.

Concur. Now I have " The end of the Civil War was near when quite accidently..." in my brain. Thank you so very much @RememberSchiff. 😀

So as Scoutbook uses a B troop for boys and G troop for girls, will F troop designate a family troop?

Quite a few years ago, I was Cubmaster of Pack 85 in my local council. It failed to recharter a year after my son aged out, and I had moved on. I kept renewing the web address (domain name) pack85.org for many more years in case there was a chance of it restarting. By now, there is no chance of it restarting, and I would like the web address to go to another unit, rather than risk it being picked up by a non-scouting entity. Is there another Pack 85 out there, and would you like this web address? If you are interested please message me, and we can arrange transfer of the domain name. BTW, I had been a member of this forum long ago under a different user name, but it had been disabled for lack of activity.

This is so poorly worded and tone deaf. Family Scouting was a smart concept for Cub Scouts. It makes no sense as a marketing tool for Troops. And like Jameson76 mentioned, it's not what 11-17 year olds want. Also pitching this as a solution to inadequate numbers needed to start a single-gender troop is just pure nonsense. This didn't come about to solve that problem and we all know it. I'm 100% in favor of this all happening, it's long overdue, but I don't get this particular marketing pitch to roll it out as "family scouting". It makes no sense.

But the mergers are going to come slow, they're all fighting them, they only do it (looking at you Long Island & Northern MN.) when they simply have no other options and national forces them to do it with no cards on the table.

Scouting's success is inversely proportional to how much scouting is like school.

Section 6: Rules around the number of local council members, the composition of members, the size of the local council board, and the composition of the board were eliminated. The new proposed Local Council Bylaws Template gives local councils flexibility to structure their own governance according to their needs. Of note, in order to allow local councils more flexibility in determining the appropriate number of members and in selecting their members, chartered organizations will no longer be automatic voting members of the local councils. Local councils can continue to elect chartered organization representatives as voting members if desired. Source: Facebook post by J. D. Urbach in "Talk About Scouting!"

That might be your area, or you're defensive. I am telling you hard fact from my district. Units that don't meet year round, that don't meet as many weeks as possible, they are failing. I can also tell you that national believes the same thing because all of the leader guides and training tell us to meet year round and meet as many weeks in a month as possible to have a healthy unit. Everyone on this site likes to complain about meeting, everyone on this site likes to complain about Scouting America being at less than 25% of it's peak size in 1970. Leadership 101: You can't maintain engagement without meeting regularly and on a schedule.

I have to believe the vast majority of units probably follow school schedules to a greater or lesser degree for simply pragmatic reasons. And most units can still manage to keep scouts engaged and active without a formal meeting every single week. People have posted examples here. There is generally plenty to engage scouts over a summer break, from camp to high adventure or volunteering. When units are failing, it's because of a hundred other problems that currently exist in scouting.

First, a leaked draft memo does not equal policy. This memo could have been generated by some mid-level staffer with an axe to grind against Scouting America, and may never see the light of day as an official communique. The real ignorance lies in all of the articles already attributing this as coming from the Secretary. I promise you, no Secretary of any department drafts their own memos like this, and these draft memoranda go through numerous revisions and legal review before being issued. Having worked at these levels with the Department of Defense (or so it was called when I was on active duty), I can easily posit this memo was the result of some staff task issued at the request of the National Guard Bureau to 'justify withdrawing support to Joint Task Force - National Scout Jamboree as a drain on resources.' But that is an educated guess on my part. https://www.wv.ng.mil/News/Article/3463243/a-decade-of-diligence-joint-task-force-national-scout-jamboree-kicks-off-10-yea/ In other posts, I have commented that Scouting America, over the past years, has, indeed, lost some credibility as a "meritocracy", (while maintaining the guise of one) as the quality of instruction and program at summer camps has declined, and Scouts are being given badges rather than earning them. Let's have some tactical patience and see what develops with this story. Hopefully, the press will show due diligence and ask the right questions to flesh out what is really going on here. It would not surprise me at all if the burden of logistical support is withdrawn, considering the dwindling attendance at jamboree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Scouting_America) Nor would it surprise me if the initial enlistment rank advancement given to Eagle Scouts is withdrawn, given the observed lower quality potential recruits we (collectively) are producing. Giving a rank advancement upon enlistment to Eagle Scout and Gold Award recipients is an endorsement of those programs...

But that's not what this program is. This is a 12 month program designed for a certain amount of activities and meetings each month (based on program). I hear this argument in my district and all of the units that say this are single digit membership and dying. The units that meet every week and do an outing every month have above average retention and are producing AOLS and Eagles. I've seen it go both ways. I've seen units adopt a 12 month a year, every week schedule an they grow and retention goes above average. I've seen units go the other direction and reduce meetings and they shrink (or outright die, seen that happen and it happens quick).

This is absolutely avoidable by recruiting as many leaders as possible. If we take an honest look at most packs and troops there are very few leaders. Everyone complains but no one is asking. I forced the issue this year to recruit at least 4 more NEW leaders and it was tough to get everyone onboard, it was about 3 months of going around and talking about what adults were close to aging out, how succession plans really work, how doing a right-seat-ride (you'll like that Armymutt) enables successors to really learn a position. The reality of most units is that we're all running lean because there is a certain point where the number of leaders becomes harder to manage the dynamics between leaders. There are a lot of units running on 4-6 leaders because it's just enough to get stuff done but not too many to make administrative work; when you go to those units and say "hey you need to recruit some female leadership into your SM corps and your committee" those units balk. My gut tells me more patrol outings fixes a lot of problems.

@Pack85 welcome back. We re-use uniforms, why not domains as well.