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One of the surest signs of membership decline is the lack of Scouters coming to this forum to debate adult square knot insignia. I swear that used to be every other thread around here pre-COVID. 😛

We've had similar experiences with various sports coaches and then specifically baseball coaches when the more sports oriented son settled into that. Almost all of them were good and many, especially in baseball, were supportive of scouting. I think one big difference I've seen in youth athletics overall is that bad coaches, unlike bad adult scout volunteers, generally don't linger. The volunteer shortage in scouting means the organization seems to hang on to almost any warm body, no matter how problematic. The existence of umpires and league arbiters also mean that the kinds of rule and vague policy questions that plague scouting, and are the source of numerous social media sites and posts, are resolved more efficiently in sports. As for adult scouters, one possible reason is I think scouting experiences are much more fragmented and individual. One adult might have been in a unit that camped all the time; another adult might have been in a unit that was more advancement driven; another in a unit that was very integrated with a religion; yet another with one that was influenced by military connections and philosophies. When they re-experience it with their kids, it can seem completely different and offputting and definitely more complicated. Sports, on the other hand, can seem almost universally familiar. There have been rule and equipment changes but pretty much youth basketball, football, baseball, soccer players are playing the same game their parents did no matter what part of the country they were from. It's easier to re-onboard with and more understandable. They don't need as much training to be functional.

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken.

This isn't true at all. My buddy had to attend every game and practice his daughter played in league volleyball (which cost him $3200 every "Series"/"quarter"/"league period" aka she played 3 a year outside varsity volleyball for all 4 years of high school). There may be some leagues that you can dump and run; however, that is becoming the old standard much like it was the old standard in scouting. As the lawsuit sharks circle dump-and-run is going away even in league sports. I remember him calling me going "I am driving a day and a half to St. Louis right now because if I am not butt in bleachers they will bench my daughter which will threaten her varsity slot when she returns to school.". Dumping and running might have been true in the interarm, but it is going away. It's not declining due to value perception. It's declining due to lack of delivery. On paper the programs provided by Scouting America are among the top youth programs in the world; yes, the world. The problem is that execution of this program is highly variable (even from one side of the town to another), there is no quality control, and councils are too weak to do anything about it because they are too busy trying to survive instead of running the program. Scouting America just lost somewhere between 300k and 500k of it's youth membership in the past 90 days; that membership churn is not a value perception, we sold those families on the value, they where here, they saw the value, they left because we didn't deliver.

Sometimes I think we are just not getting through... I am an ASM working with a Patrol of younger Scouts. Last night, an older Scout interrupted this Patrol's Meeting to try to take a younger Scout out to work on his Life requirement #6, using EDGE to teach a skill. The younger Scout is the planner for the Patrol's next camping trip, and he was working out plans with his Patrol mates. The younger Scout was obviously frustrated by this demand (from the look on his face) and turned to me for guidance. I dismissed the older Scout and told him this was time for the Patrol Meeting, and that the younger Scout was to stay and finish his planning with his Patrol Mates. This morning, the parent of the older Scout sends a scathing missive to the Scoutmaster, outlining how his son has been trying to complete this requirement for months now, and is not getting any support from the Troop. (This is factually incorrect, and the SM handled the email response to the parent perfectly.) The parent made brief mention of the Patrol Meeting scenario last night, and made a comment in reference to it that makes me believe we are just not getting through... "I understand the importance of patrol meetings, but don’t get why they would take precedence over completing rank requirements." This, followed by threats to leave the Troop if the Troop does not immediately make and implement a plan to help their Scout finish the requirement. Important to note also, this older Scout rarely comes to meetings, and has not been on a Troop outing since Oct 2024. He did not make arrangements with anyone to try to work on the requirement during this meeting... smh https://youtu.be/V2f-MZ2HRHQ?si=ljwnDk_wERNKzhz4

We have one like this in our troop. Kid just likes doing the stuff he likes to do in scouts and doesn't care about the patches. Doesn't come to regular weekday meetings often, but is usually on the hikes and camp outs. He has the skills, I see him use them regularly, just doesn't feel like going through the motions for the sign offs. He's happy. Parents are happy. Other kids and adults like him and his parents. I have no doubt he lives by the Oath and Law.

They can vote with their feet.

So I attended my first event today with the new troop. The SM is "trained," but admitted he doesn't consider himself "trained," and is glad I am joining the troop. We started talking, and from the discussion, I realized a lot of info was left out of the online training. We are trying to recruit new Scouters, and I have a feeling I will be doing some informal training with them on camp outs.

This is a good method if the instructors are clear that "Hey you're doing this pretending to be the members of the PLC, you're learning through their eyes". That's not often clear though right? WB will help if your council actually runs WB correctly. My local WB is so disgusting that leaders are starting to travel out of council in order to try and experience the process correctly. Here's a juicy quote from a fellow leader "I'm going to PTC to do WB because I want to be able to come back and audit the local WB and tell these idiots how they don't have a clue as to what they're doing."

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to, your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues. Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics? Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units. As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

Scoutldr cmon….how else can scouts “get” all the MBs by 14?

Will be on WB staff next time around.

That was easy to predict. Merit badge mills. Hard to hold the line when just replace you. Part of the reason the eagle badge means less.

Very true, adults cannot model the skills because they have no training or experience. And the powers that be think online learning is enough. Bill Hillcourt said it best " SCOUTING IS OUTING!" But I am leery of outside certifications. I remember when LNT Trainer was a Scout POR that required LNT Trainer certification, but most places offering it wanted you to be 18+. And to be honest even going through training is not enough. I went through Aquatics Supervision Paddle Sports training, and am certified to teach paddle board to Scouts. Just because I am certified, doesn't mean I have the knowledge or skills to do it. 2 to 3 hours on a paddle board was not enough time, especially with my balance to master those skills. Give me a canoes or kayak any day. Once upon a time, national allowed a test out of IOLS. You had to demonstrate ALL of the skills, and if you missed one, you had to take the course. That lasted a year or two because some folks were just pencil whipping the training. Which considering the standard of one and done, pencil whipping is the norm from national. Unfortunately pros are judged by the number of units they have, even if they are substandard. So there is a LOT of pressure on them. I tried to focus on quality, not quantity, and my boss gave me hell for it. And trust me pros cannot remove unit leaders. When I was a DE, we had a pack that had extremely poor leadership. I could recruit 30 Scouts for them, and 5 would remain. The #1 complaint was the CM, they needed to be removed. I had a chat with the COR/IH, who was an involved Scouter. But even he was unwilling to remove them because he had no idea who to replace them with. As for unit visits, I can tell you I had one unit I started having a lot, and I mean a lot, of challenges. I was doing my best to help them out by basically serving as their commissioner as we did not have a commissioner corps ( that is another story). My boss chewed me a new one for helping the unit out. I got around that by visiting them as a member of their CO, the service organization that I belong to. Until national wants quality over quantity, we will continue circling the drain.

What parts do you feel do not work well any longer? I totally see this. Here's a good story to illustrate. One of the doctors my kids were seeing was very supportive of scouting. I asked her why she didn't have her kids in scouting. She replied that her husband was an eagle, a veteran, and an accomplished outdoorsman and they simply couldn't handle how poorly every unit in their area functioned so decided to just focus on family camping. I have noticed that the more competent people who have management experience or operational coordination experience struggle the most with scouting. Also key 3 often are selected based on random attributes and not how Scouting America recommends (skills and ability based selection); it becomes impossible to intellectually or emotionally handle dealing with incompetent people who can't handle coordinating enough car space for a weekend campout let alone the far more complex issues that arise within scouting.

This thread is really hitting the nail on the head. I wish someone with influence would take note. Many of the other youth programs we've been exposed to either have 1) an affiliation with the school district that allows families to get access to facilities and quality instructors at a greatly subsided rate or 2) a for-profit operator that is highly motivated to provide a quality program. My wife (an IT project manager) is appalled by the way our Pack operates (even though it's probably one of the better units in the area). My response is always the same - "We're just a handful of parents doing our best. No one else will step up."

Yep.

So many things get in the way of real continuity. For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up. That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex. He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's. Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's. WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period. He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated. Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit. Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves. I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat. I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning. We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history. The history, over a century is a factor though. So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni. We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit. Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults. Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.

Probably polishing my "annoyed stone" a bit, but the fact he did not make Eagle is secondary. Did he enjoy his time, and did he learn to live the Spirit?

I know when we did how a troop meeting is done with the old SM Fundamentals (SMF) Training, we were told we were to act like Scouts, and work as patrols during our meeting. Maybe because of my age at the time, but I didn't have problems. And I didn't notice any of my patrol mates having problems either. If memory serves, the model PLC used the actual SMF troop PLs with the rest of us watching. But I may be getting confused with BA22 and JLTC. But I agree 100%, training needs to focus more on interaction with Scouts through mentoring and counseling. That was a skill set, counseling PLs while being SPL or JASM, with both BA 22 and JLTC, was very applicable as an adult.

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others.

I hate the trend toward Merit Badge Universities, Virtual "classes" (you don't even have to be in the same Council or State), and working on MB during troop meetings with a MBC registered "for Troop XX only". I am old enough to remember when the training I took (and later taught) that the Merit Badge program was designed to not only stir interests in subjects that may result in advanced skills, but an introduction to lifelong hobbies and vocations. The "Merit Badge Counselor" concept was to encourage the Scout to a) take initiative to choose a badge to work on, after consulting with his SM, b) take initiative to reach out to a counselor that he probably didn't know who was a recognized "expert" by vocation or avocation, and c) to work on the badge with the counselor's guidance independent of troop activities. AKA, the "adult association" method of Scouting. Now, none of that happens. Scouts are told to show up at the MBU, or Troop meeting and in some cases TOLD what badge they are going to work on, which in some cases means just sitting there through the "lecture" as a group. Sure, some MB are suited to be incorporated into the Troop Outdoor program, such as Camping, Cooking, Orienteering, Hiking, etc, and should be a byproduct of the program, not the purpose of it. Scouts get enough of "classroom" with an adult lecturing at them. Scouting is not school. I agree with the opinion that Scouting has been watered down to the point of being ludicrous. For us, back in the day, it was a way of life, not just an "extracurricular" to list on the college application.

While I agree in principle, at least in my area the council and district mB events are not staffed by qualified counselors. For example, the district person in charge of an event a few years ago asked me if I would counsel the Camping merit badge at an event. She pushed for (in her words) scouts with little experience to get the badge in a 2-hour session. A group of 20+ mind you. After I explained the requirements, and the impossibility to work with scouts and test them individually in that short time frame, not to mention the camping nights requirement. I said I was happy to do an "intro to camping" seminar with demonstrations and hands-on activities and leave the scouts with my contact info. Her reply was, "if you do the seminar can't you just sign off their blue cards?" Grrr. I said no, scouts need to personally demonstrate each requirement as written. In short, they found someone else. The system is broken.

I'd like to agree but I think this is just standard briefing. The insurers will assert their rights and say that their policies allowed the investigation of every claim, something the Trust did instead, but doesn't bind an insurer. It would be a VERY bold step for a Judge to tell the insurers to pay up, and if they did it would be appealed in minutes. Again, the Trustee has 250 IRO claims she can send to trial and start to inflict pain on the insurers. Awards beyond the IRO amount then go to the "general fund" to serve all claimants. But, repeated losses (Juries tend to side with Survivors), would give the insurers real reason to cut deals.

Writ has been denied by SCOTUS. Additional $1.65 billion sitting in escrow can now go to the Trust. Hopefully the Trustee will have a statement and perhaps Town Hall soon. The appeal by an attorney representing 72 claimants only took 3 1/2 years post confirmation. Enjoy some rare good news.

Something on my newsfeed. https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/soaring-price-youth-sports-50-174913819.html

My old troop had 1 fundraiser a year. Every Scout had a goal to sell x number of plates. Paid for all advancement, weekend campouts (except food, $ varied by patrol) and depending upon the year 50% to 100% of summer camp. Before National skyrocketed the dues, also paid that and Boy's Life. Depending upon where you are at, you can get by cheaply, especially backpacking. One national forest nearby has no fees for backpackers. One state park charges only for parking if you are backpacking. One place we went biking cost us $100 for everyone for the weekend. That was less than $10/person. Key is willingness to explore new places.

A plea to adults to stop staying quiet and speak up for our members, in particular the girls in our Packs and Troops: We're going on 7 years of girls in Scouts BSA at the Troop level, 8 years in Cubs. At this point, girls in Scouts BSA and Cub Scouts should seem completely normal to everyone, there aren't many active boys who would have been old enough to remember the time before girls were in the main programs after so many years. And yet if you look on social media, the hostility towards girls is still rampant, and sadly some of it comes from members, both youth and adults. Girls are treated like invaders, as if they took over the BSA and forced themselves into the organization. Nothing could be further from the truth, as these girls would have been under 10 years old when the membership policies changed. Still, some boys and men feel empowered to bully these girls, and yes I knowingly use the word "bully" as it fits the definition of what is happening here. Repeated targeted behavior meant to make someone feel unwelcome on the basis of gender. It's some of the same usernames and profiles making the same comments on every social media post that depicts girls. Whether they like it or not, these girls are full members of Scouting America and should be afforded the same recognition and respect as the boys. But few adults stand up to the bullies. Few people speak out, and even Scouting America seems reluctant to act. Anti-female comments are left on Scouting America social media posts for days or weeks before they are finally deleted, if they are even addressed at all. Meanwhile some of the older girls who are featured in these posts (or their fellow Troop scouts) see the comments and the damage is already done. I think it's long past time that the grace period be expired for what is often reduced to someone "just sharing an opinion". These are Youth Protection violations, use of social media to make people feel like they don't belong in Scouting should be handled as such. Each comment should be investigated, each person identified as a member of Scouting America should be dealt with according to any other in-person instance of bullying. Personally, I'd like to see any adult member who engages in this be immediately removed from the organization. And any scout who does it be referred to their Troop and local Council for appropriate disciplinary action. But aside from any hope for an official response and increase in action regarding this issue, I'd also like to implore EVERYONE to speak up for the girls, and defend female youth members in the same way we'd defend male youth members from bullying and targeted unkind behavior. Those opposed to girls in Scouting America have had more than enough time to get it out, say what they wanted to say, and voice their disagreement. And no one is saying that they can't still do that, but take your grievances to National or Council offices. It's been 8 years. Some girls are old enough to have joined and aged out already, and yet they've had to endure this nonsense from within the organization the whole time. Let's not let this remain a thing in Scouting. We can't control what everyone says, but we can and should end this tolerance we seem to have as an organization for social media bullying on the basis of gender.

It is always best to go to the source: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/2026-NCAP-Standards-v2.pdf Standard number SA-001, pages 25 - 29.

This is a lot, a lot of good thought. I am not sure if the program can function this way. In order to master skills the instructors have to know the skills that they are teaching otherwise the youth are set up for failure before things begin. How can adult leaders model the program for the youth leaders and pass on the skills for the older scouts to teach younger scouts when so few adult leaders know the skills. Scouting America knows this is a problem but is moving far too slow (BSA Fishing, NRA Partnership, LNT Partnership, etc ... bringing in outside experts to rejuvenate the skills base). So much of the training is poorly done. The training should be based on a level 1 (online) training with level 2 (in person) practical demonstrations. IOLS and BALOO are garbage. They should literally be several hours of online modules followed up by a simple 12 hour overnight testing experience. Enforcement of training needs to become mandatory; national needs to start dropping people from the rolls after 90 days of not being trained. The commissioner corps is broken; not because of anything the commissioners have done, but for what the professional scouters have failed to do. If a district has a commissioner reporting that a unit has sub standard adult training, sub standard program, etc ... it's the district executives role to step in and start doing unit visits to determine if the commissioner is a moron or if the unit needs to have its charter revoked.

My thoughts, 1. BSA's standards for Scouts BSA have dropped. Once upon a time the standards were "Master the skills," and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done." Today its is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth... It is thus more about the learning experience than it is about the specific skills learned. " Best example of this is the "First Class Camp" After doing all the basic Scoutcraft requirements, they needed to lead a campout for a minimum of 24 hours with at least 1 other Scout without and adult. Nowadays 2 adults over 21 are needed. A lot of folks I know complain about the new standard. And we see what "One and Done" is doing to the program. When you have a Life Scout, with their Eagle Board of Review scheduled, can not do basic T-2-1 first aid, let alone First Aid Merit Badge requirements, there is a problem. 2 Adult training is a joke. I had scheduled and was prepping a CS Basic Leader Training course when the CS Leader Specific Training courses came out. I cannot tell you how much information was left out, especially at the Webelos level. We did CS Specific, but added a lot from the old CSBLT that was missing. Ditto with ITOLS.. I supplemented a bunch of material from older BSHBs and Field Books, to make sure they got the info they needed. And they have watered down the syllabus since I taught it. 3. There use to have experienced folks called commissioners to help units out. Problem is that they had no authority to enforce stuff, and insure a quality program. Worse is when you have new folks telling commissioners they don't know anything about the program and they need to butt out, or Scouting needs to change with the times and their ideas are better. Very discouraging and makes folks not want to help. 4.National and councils seems to be focused on advancement, not program. How many Scouts you see with all the MBs? How many councils have summer camps that give away MBs or have MBUs that are essentially MB giveaways? Sadly that is what the majority of parents want today: quick and easy advancement. They do not care if their Scouts actually know anything. They do not care if their Scouts have adventures and fun, they care about 1 thing: getting Eagle. Some who know Eagle should mean something see this and ask themselves "why bother?" Others are fighting tooth an nail to stop the degradation. However we are getting fewer and fewer.

Often in Scouting the answers were part of the program; the growth opportunities for the scout. Adults (meaningful) over time have diluted the program and these growth opportunities. Cost being discussed is just one example. The concept of cost was (should still be?) a learning/growth opportunity for scouts. "A scout pays his own way". A simpler program without bells and whistles for which a scout can earn enough with odd jobs, chores, allowances to pay for it. Adults intervened and created troop fundraisers, camps exploited the fundraising and built dining halls and other amenities to summer camps (in contradiction to living under canvas). Costs rose, parents ponied up, to only ask about ROI. Fun and adventure was not enough, merit badges earned became the metric. And the downward cycle continues. BP, West, GBB, etc... understood how all parts of the program were in concert fundamentally held together by the concept of not doing for scouts what they can do for themselves. That glue is what ties the program together, even more than 100 years later. The systematic replacing of that glue by adults to make things more efficient, or more modern or more "xyz" is why the program cannot hold itself together. Adults asking about cost/value is a symptom of the systemic failure of adults in Scouting to adhere to the basic tenets of program delivery in an attempt to increase efficiency, or market share or other business terms. The answers are and have always been in the program delivery; Scouts learning to do for themselves and others.

It's true the high cost of volunteering in scouting is often unacknowledged, especially when compared to other youth activities. This is part of the value perception equation. It's also not as simple as thinking parents want to dump and run. Potential volunteers who are used to operating in more functional organizations find the systemic dysfunction in scouting incomprehensible. The onboarding experience in most youth activities is efficient and user friendly. Trying to onboard in scouts can be an ordeal. That makes the first point of entry a complete turn off for a lot of competent adults. Not necessarily dumping kids but running backwards away from dysfunction.

We live in a large suburban school district. There are 200 boys in my son's class. So far, in elementary school, about 50 of the 200 come out for basketball every year. Of those 50, only 10 make the top team. The cost of youth sports keeps increasing because it's just an arm's race to give your kid a slight advantage. When I was a kid most player development occurred within the (low cost) school program. Today, it's closer to 1/3 (if that). Most kids hone their skills through some combination of private small group training, personal trainers, shooting cages, summer camps, and travel teams. My son is pretty good, but I'm not delusional. I don't think he'll ever play professionally, get a college scholarship, or even start for his high varsity team. I just want him to make the team (if he desires). My wife and I are generally supportive because: He seems to be enjoying himself. He's exercising and socializing. He's established a feedback loop where extra practice and offseason work often results in noticeable improvement. He now gets excited about other pursuits like math and reading because he correlates practice with improvement.

Well said. I could not agree more. Also true.

I understand what's out there very well. Problems with value perception is why scouting is declining.

There is a 2 month "lapsed" period; however, depending on what report a leader looks at a lapsed scout may or may not be represented. I really hope not; but, if they do decide to go back to pro-rated I hope they have membership at a different time than recharter.

Council does have a Unit Safety Director on staff. I have never seen or heard any indication of a Council Enterprise Risk Management (ERM) Committee. After a cursory read of the cited document, it does present a broad risk assessment algorithm and fortunately specifies the involvement of subject matter experts. Rather than ponder the risks of a developing and instituting a camp driver training program I returned to the concerns stated in my posts. Lake Erie Council has a mandatory policy that summer camp staff tow troop trailers over owned land to the respective troop campsite. Vehicles used are owned by the adult staff performing the work. This amounts to towing 75 - 100 trailers owned by as many different entities. As the troop trailers are in the temporary custody and control of Council employees this circumstance creates a bailee liability for Council. Generally this form of insurance coverage in not included in general commercial liability policies. I would expect this matter could be addressed by a phone call to Council's insurance carrier. The annual premium might be more than a few loads of gravel.

Thinking a bit more ... I am getting crotchety in my old age. LOL. ... I hope the scout can advance. That would be great. ... But when I hear a parent threaten to pull their scout out because they can't advance, I am frustrated. Advancement is just one benefit and not the biggest one. Is the scout having a positive experience in scouting? Having fun? Growing in character and responsibility? If so, that's the big part. ... I wish advancement always naturally followed that, but it doesn't always. And it makes me sad when the scout loses out on advancement. ... But to threaten to pull the scout because of that is also frustrating to me.

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be. The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming. And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now. As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

Hard to really tell, but you are correct, something seems off.

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm. Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't. His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛). Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway. You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance. I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting. The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend. When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc. Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

It took me a bit, but I found the part that defines this situation. Your description is not accurate as the gap would be >5 days. The council could define it as a "day camp" or not if the gap is 5 days or more. "Except for day camps as provided below, a camp is an overnight program . In determining the length of a camp, count all nights where any participants (other than staff) are present with substantially the same camp leadership or camp staff, regardless of what the camp is called, unless there is a gap of five or more nights between sessions . Camp includes the following classifications: 1 . Day camps . A day camp is a council-organized program designed for Scouts for two or more days, under council-retained leadership at an approved site with no overnight . The program may operate at age-appropriate Cub Scout, Scouts BSA, Venturer, or Sea Scout level . A council may choose to treat a one-day event (without an overnight) as a day camp."

A few more suggestions: take responsibility for portions of a family reunion (differentiated from immediate family) assist with a local parks and rec event (doesn't require an ongoing commitment) participate in a school service project (again, doesn't have to be an ongoing commitment) contribute to an online discussion (with parent supervision) write a letter to the editor of the local paper (civic engagement) I hope this Scout is able to earn Eagle, if he desires, but I would think improving his grades should take priority over a merit badge. Not every Scout needs to aim for straight A's, but passing all classes is a fair expectation.

Everything fall under NCAP now if it is a district/council event. And officially that is anytime you have units from 2 or more COs. Even in my day, Professional Development Level 2 was not automatic, because it was not required to be a DE like PDL-1 was. In fact i know of only 2 DEs of the 12 I worked with having completed PDL-2. One completed years earlier, and one somehow got a two week, all expenses paid trip for PDL-2 and an Exploring Conference at FL Sea Base in January.

What's weird is that by some observations, GNYC Council looks healthy and thriving. I'm in NJ but when we go to Alpine Scout Camp (a GNYC property located just across the river in NJ), that camp is always active and busy. We went to the Cub weekend in the fall and I was told that there were over 1,000 scouts there. For just that one weekend. And most seemed to be GNYC units judging by CSPs on uniforms and Pack t-shirts. The program looks healthy, so it's surprising to read that the actual numbers say otherwise.

UPDATE: A helpful Scout shop volunteer on the other side of the country saw a post I'd made on a Facebook Scouting group and let me know that they'd found a medal while doing shop inventory. I got it in the mail yesterday! All hail the Laurel Highlands Council volunteers for their help. If anyone else is looking for a medal, I heard from one or two other council shops that might still have one in stock. Let me know if you need info. Thanks, everyone, for your help and ideas!

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry