Eagledad Posted October 1, 2018 Author Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 1:06 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: Even granting that, it still makes religions useless for deciding moral questions. Christianity literally had centuries to call slavery immoral, yet failed to do so. Aquinas was OK with slavery and plenty of popes endorsed it and some owned slaves themselves. Expand How did you know slavery is bad? Is there not one good act by man? How would you know? How could the hideously flawed man even conceive right from wrong without a perfect timeless measuring stick. Knowing right from wrong is proof of God because only God is timeless and perfect. How else would even the atheist know slavery is wrong. On 10/1/2018 at 1:06 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: All of them? There are over 30 examples. Whataboutism doesn't wave away how worthless religion is for determining morality, it only shows that you're trying to deflect the issue. Expand "Worthless" is an emotional adjective. An opinion without base or definition. Emotion is the flawed mans moral response to life. Emotion is fickle and measured only in the moment. What felt good yesterday feels bad today. Because God's morality is timeless and consistent, even an emotional atheist can know right from wrong. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Eagledad said: How did you know slavery is bad? Expand Go right ahead and argue that it's good. On 10/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Eagledad said: Is there not one good act by man? How would you know? How could the hideously flawed man even conceive right from wrong without a perfect timeless measuring stick. Knowing right from wrong is proof of God because only God is timeless and perfect. How else would even the atheist know slavery is wrong. Expand This is just silly. Morals are opinions. Gods have nothing to do with it. On 10/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Eagledad said: "Worthless" is an emotional adjective. An opinion without base or definition. Emotion is the flawed mans moral response to life. Emotion is fickle and measured only in the moment. What felt good yesterday feels bad today. Expand That's why religions keep changing what is moral or immoral. Christianity said slavery was fine for centuries. On 10/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Eagledad said: Because God's morality is timeless and consistent, even an emotional atheist can know right from wrong. Expand How did the SBC change then? They didn't claim their god showed up and corrected them. And your assertion is no different than saying "elves" give people their morality. It's just baseless assertions. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted October 1, 2018 Author Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 3:26 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: Go right ahead and argue that it's good. Expand How do you know it's bad? On 10/1/2018 at 3:26 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: This is just silly. Morals are opinions. Gods have nothing to do with it. Expand Or course God does, read the Bible. It's hasn't changed. On 10/1/2018 at 3:26 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: That's why religions keep changing what is moral or immoral. Christianity said slavery was fine for centuries. Expand Religion is made by man. Man lets emotion rule and changes religion. But we only know that because God doesn't change. On 10/1/2018 at 3:26 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: And your assertion is no different than saying "elves" give people their morality. It's just baseless assertions. Expand No elves in Bible. You can go check right now. Or tomorrow if you like because it doesn't change. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 3:42 PM, Eagledad said: How do you know it's bad? Expand Go ahead and argue that it's good. On 10/1/2018 at 3:42 PM, Eagledad said: Or course God does, read the Bible. It's hasn't changed. Expand So slavery is moral? You can buy slaves from other countries and leave them as property to your children? On 10/1/2018 at 3:42 PM, Eagledad said: Religion is made by man. Man lets emotion rule and changes religion. But we only know that because God doesn't change. Expand But you're getting that from religion. Humans wrote the bible. On 10/1/2018 at 3:42 PM, Eagledad said: No elves in Bible. You can go check right now. Or tomorrow if you like because it doesn't change. Expand I see you didn't understand my comment. There ARE unicorns in the bible, and false animal husbandry. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSF Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Eagledad said: How did you know slavery is bad? Expand Barry, I'm a Christian and a Conservative and I agree with you on the transgender issue and I could not agree with you more that the BSA has most definitely lost its moral compass and caved in to special interest. There's absolutely no validity and no merit for defending slavery though. Not in any way, shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 4:56 PM, SSF said: Barry, I'm a Christian and a Conservative and I agree with you on the transgender issue and I could not agree with you more that the BSA has most definitely lost its moral compass and caved in to special interest. There's absolutely no validity and no merit for defending slavery though. Not in any way, shape or form. Expand Barry isn't defending slavery, he's asking a question, namely, how do we know something is bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted October 1, 2018 Author Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 4:38 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: I see you didn't understand my comment. There ARE unicorns in the bible, and false animal husbandry. Expand Ah, I see what you are saying, the 10 Commandments were written by the finger of, well unicorns. Hmm, OK Merlyn, I'm curious, do feel you present an intellectual point of view? Thanks for the visit, but we must move on. Bary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Well it looks like there may actually BE some universal constants: the I&P forum is still prone to going off topic and heading toward lack of decorum. I guess some things don't change. At least it's not Facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) On 10/1/2018 at 6:18 PM, Eagledad said: Ah, I see what you are saying, the 10 Commandments were written by the finger of, well unicorns. Hmm, OK Merlyn, I'm curious, do feel you present an intellectual point of view? Expand What, like your nonsense replies? I give back what replies deserve. PS: what you have are humans claiming their god wrote the ten commandments. It's still humans all the way up. Edited October 1, 2018 by Merlyn_LeRoy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 4:38 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: Go ahead and argue that it's good. So slavery is moral? You can buy slaves from other countries and leave them as property to your children? But you're getting that from religion. Humans wrote the bible. I see you didn't understand my comment. There ARE unicorns in the bible, and false animal husbandry. Expand Where is there anything at all scouting related in this discussion. Merlyn LeRoy has long represented anti anything that he feels is bad and often at the cost of other people's beliefs and personal values. Sadly, it often degrades into ugly name calling and insults. This discussion chain should end. It lifts up no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 2:38 PM, Merlyn_LeRoy said: I'm not saying only Christianity is worthless in deciding morals, ALL religions are like that. They are based on assertions that try to be unquestionable. And oh dear, "hate speech", when I'm replying to assertions that atheists can only be moral due to religion. Expand Merlyn, As far back as we have been able to document human groups, there is evidence of religious practices. Even if you discount that, there have been well documented religions for several thousand years. All atheists today have been raised in a climate where there have been thousands of years of religious traditions. No atheist exists in a vacuum where they were not exposed to moral values derived from religious traditions. You cannot make a cogent claim that atheists have moral values that have not originated in religious traditions because they have all been exposed to religious moral values. So unless you want to take a lot of young children and drop them on an uninhabited jungle island and see what their moral system is 20 years later, there is no group of people who were not exposed to religion derived morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Merlyn ! Welcome back, old curmudgeonly friend. Nice to see some new debate here in the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum, oh, wait... None the less, let's get some things straight, not to say agreed between us: 1) Faith is not based on logic. (some) God either touches you or not. Us Quakers say one is "convinced" , even if one is a birthright Friend. The proof of existence of a "Higher Authority" can never be totally logical. There is a reason to call it "faith". One person's coincidence (or evolution?) is another's personal small miracle (or evidence of intended design ?). 2) Jesus was not a Christian. Gandhi started out as Hindu, but he liked to say he was "irreligious". Martin Luther King Jr. certainly based most , if not all his leadings on Biblical principle, to the consternation of many other religious leaders (again, see the SBC). 3) Not all "Christians" follow Christ, as evidenced by Merlyn's example of the Southern Baptist Convention. (how is it other people seem to know more about our history than we do?) . If Jesus is your example, how to reconcile certain churches' political stance (another discussion) ? 4) If one is pressed to give a reason for an action (or inaction), often religious faith is quoted/blamed/mentioned/used. If it is time to be Drafted into military service, a "higher authority " and social history is needed to claim Conscientious Objector status. No draft board in my ken would accept "I just don't want to kill " (see Arlo Guthrie) as a reason not to serve in the army. Buy and sell human slaves? Yep, justification is found in the Bible and Koran. Equality under God's eyes also available for reference. 5) The Sabbath was made for man. Any congregation is populated with fallible humans. Even the Humanist Association. The ideals espoused by any given faith (was Nazisim more a faith than a political system?) can be ignored or subverted by the proponents of it. Catholic Bishops? United Methodist Circuit absorbing failed (by their definition) church property? 6) The BSA is both a product of tradition and the times. The fact that the Scout Promise (similar in every country if not identical) has remained the same for a hundred years means something. That is the ideal, perhaps not the reality. Now the Scout Law HAS been redefined slightly over the years, but the "ideals" are the same. 7) Every person is left with some religious teachings from their upbringing. Even Merlyn. The parents/guardians teach by lesson, example and discipline. The children are left , whether the parents realize it or not, with something to accept or reject. As William Penn once observed, ""It is a sad Reflection, that many Men hardly have any Religion at all; and most Men have none of their own: For that which is the Religion of their Education, and not of their Judgment, is the Religion of Another, and not Theirs."" We do have to make our own way in the world, no matter how it got here. See you on the trail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 6:56 PM, fred johnson said: Where is there anything at all scouting related in this discussion. Expand I think the BSA's decades-long disparagement of atheists both by word and deed contributes to the slurs against atheists in this forum. You know, like when scouts write things like "Merlyn ... You're the Stalin of the web era", as if I'm equivalent to a mass murderer. Oh, that was you who wrote that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 PM, vol_scouter said: As far back as we have been able to document human groups, there is evidence of religious practices. Expand Yep, and they don't agree on even basic questions. And when religious tenets on morality conflict, either one side admits their god is wrong (or doesn't exist), or both sides dig in and insist their view is the only correct one. This is not useful in deciding morals. On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 PM, vol_scouter said: All atheists today have been raised in a climate where there have been thousands of years of religious traditions. No atheist exists in a vacuum where they were not exposed to moral values derived from religious traditions. Expand And all religions today have been exposed to new and conflicting moral values, which is why religions like the SBC used to support slavery but now don't. Society changed them. On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 PM, vol_scouter said: You cannot make a cogent claim that atheists have moral values that have not originated in religious traditions because they have all been exposed to religious moral values. Expand And vice-versa. Christianity definitely supported slavery for centuries, until it was changed due to societal pressure. But I was replying to this statement of yours: "Like you, I do not believe that atheists would have a moral code without religions that define right and wrong. " Right there, you're saying atheists would not have a moral code, period, without religions that define right and wrong, which is a very different claim. On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 PM, vol_scouter said: So unless you want to take a lot of young children and drop them on an uninhabited jungle island and see what their moral system is 20 years later, there is no group of people who were not exposed to religion derived morals. Expand Drop them with a bible and tell them it holds all absolute morals that they all must follow and see if they contradict the bible and decide that slavery is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 8:03 PM, SSScout said: 1) Faith is not based on logic. Expand That's a good reason to not use faith-based assumptions to decide morals. On 10/1/2018 at 8:03 PM, SSScout said: 3) Not all "Christians" follow Christ, as evidenced by Merlyn's example of the Southern Baptist Convention. Expand What? When did Jesus condemn slavery? On 10/1/2018 at 8:03 PM, SSScout said: If it is time to be Drafted into military service, a "higher authority " and social history is needed to claim Conscientious Objector status. Expand Wrong. See Welsh v. United States (1970) and Seeger v. United States (1965). The law was written as if a "higher authority" was required, but the supreme court ruled that CO status could not be exclusive to only god-believers, or only to people who belonged to a religion that taught pacifism. By the way, the plaintiff (Elliott Welsh) was also the father of Mark Welsh in Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America (1993) On 10/1/2018 at 8:03 PM, SSScout said: The fact that the Scout Promise (similar in every country if not identical) has remained the same for a hundred years means something. Expand The UK explicitly allows atheists now. WOSM still hasn't said anything about that, as far as I've heard. On 10/1/2018 at 8:03 PM, SSScout said: Every person is left with some religious teachings from their upbringing. Even Merlyn. Expand This is the same old lie that "if my religion teaches X, anyone who also says X got it from my religion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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