A letter from my SE

[ianwilkins]

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond,  if female youth are present, a female Scouter is required. So this policy is mandated by our national org. That is why there is a concern about not having enough female Scouters to do camping.

 

And in all honesty I think it's good policy. Adults can be accused of things, and even if proven untrue, it destroys the individual's reputation.

 

Well, if they want 100,000s of Girl BSA Scouts (?!?) they're either going to knock that on the head or be shaking the magic female leader tree very hard indeed.

 

Yes, adults can be accused of things, and yes, it ruins reputations no matter what the outcome, there's always a bit of a cloud hanging over them I'm sure. I'm not sure why the gender of the child accuser makes much difference.

 

And yes, it happens in the UK too. We're having a bit of a spate of historic sex abuse cases going to court recently, but as they're historic, back to when there were no girls in the Boy Scouts, it's all about men and boys. I know leaders who have been drummed out for a jokey remark that was taken the wrong way when repeated to the parents out of context. So yes, care is needed.

 

 

@@ianwilkins, the litigious nature of our populace (foisted upon us by the criminal behavior of a few) is indeed crippling.

 

That's a pity.

We do get the odd case of leaders being sued by parents, but I think it's quite unusual.

[Eagledad]

Someone should start a poll: Biggest concern is -girls?, -too many moms?, -lack of moms? I lean towards the last.

 

Good idea, but I would need "All the above". I'm just giving concerns depending on the discussion at the moment.

 

I know some moms of scouts that were girls scouts as kids and did a lot of outdoor stuff, didn't have any daughters and never felt at home in the BSA. Some of them made it work but it was a struggle.

 

We had a couple of these mothers. Part of their conflict is they felt participating with their son was interupting the male role model experience that they valued from the program. That isn't on your list either.

 

Eagledad, I believe your concern with moms not being interested. But isn't that just the canary in the coal mine? There are also fewer dads that are interested in the outdoors or letting their kids learn things the hard way. Girls or not, the program issue is still there.

 

Yep, and it is even more complicated by National's reputation of acting without listening. It appears to me that nobody trust that National will do the right thing for the right reasons.

 

Have a training program that models what the youth go through. The current adult training is pathetic. It's mostly classroom. It pays lip service to outdoor skills. It's one and done. Where have we seen these problems before?

I have been suggesting that for a long time. But it has to be done right. The previous WoodBadge put the participants in ideal patrol method environment and it failed. Adults were going back trying to duplicate their WB experience, not philosophical basics of the patrol method program. Adults need to understand how making independent decisions in the patrol environment is the driver to character growth. The main issue is boys go into the patrol method stupid. Adults go in with life experiences. Adults know how to build teams that work where young ignorant boys have yet to work that in their mind.

 

The stress of learning to work within the patrol method process is the catalyst for character growth, not the scout skills actions themselves. Adults fail because they don't let the patrol method work to the point of stress.

 

One idea I would like to try the is unit coach idea. The coach is an experienced Scoutmaster who works with the adults in the troop to understand how and why the program works.

 

Barry 

[Eagle94-A1]

But surely there can be such accusations whether or not there are female leaders present? And indeed if it is just an all male event as well? I don't really see the difference in the levels of risk on that side of things.

 

Yes, adults can be accused of things, and yes, it ruins reputations no matter what the outcome, there's always a bit of a cloud hanging over them I'm sure. I'm not sure why the gender of the child accuser makes much difference.

 

Oh yes, even with all guys it can happen. When I and 2 other 18-20 year old Scouters caught the same "Scout" and a few of his friends breaking curfew at a major event, he tried to blame us for his actions. The three of us looked like we were going to be in serious trouble until the friends recanted the story and told the truth. I wish they would have done something to him, because this was before the situation I mentioned above. And a cloud hung over our heads for a few months.

 

 

And while gender shouldn't make a difference, for whatever reason when girls accuse men, it is looked at a lot differently. It as if men are guilty until proven innocent, and even then, they are still called a "rapist."  Just look what happened at the link below. Guy is exonerated and still called a rapist., 

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cleared-mattress-girl-rapist-settles-suit-columbia-u-article-1.3327789

[MattR]

@@Eagledad. Okay, "models what the youth go through" is not quite what I meant. What I meant was make it fun, make it outdoors, have levels of learning (kind of like ranks but not the same ones), and have something similar to badges so adults can focus on something. It's not just about outdoor skills but also how a troop is supposed to work. Make a big deal at a COH when someone advances. Ease them in. Don't just dump a FOS presentation on them.

 

I agree that putting adults in a patrol and expecting them to understand the difficulty of creating that for scouts is a waste of time. I've seen the exact same thing you have.

 

The only thing I don't like about the coach idea is we already have that and it doesn't work in my council. They're called unit commissioners. I bet you'd be a great coach. I can guarantee you that we don't have anyone with any experience at turning troops around. Besides, people might not listen to a coach. As much as I don't like power point presentations some structure would help.

 

I hadn't thought of the moms-want-male-roll-models scenario. Here's another one. Don't moms also want that for their daughters? My wife is the softy and I'm the hard one. We appreciate that both are needed for both our kids, a son and a daughter. Also, shouldn't every girl be exposed to men that treat women right? How many single moms of daughters would like their daughters to know what a gentleman is?

 

I have concerns as well. I'm just trying to find ways to make it, which is likely inevitable, work.

[Eagledad]

@@Eagledad. Okay, "models what the youth go through" is not quite what I meant. What I meant was make it fun, make it outdoors, have levels of learning (kind of like ranks but not the same ones), and have something similar to badges so adults can focus on something. It's not just about outdoor skills but also how a troop is supposed to work. Make a big deal at a COH when someone advances. Ease them in. Don't just dump a FOS presentation on them.

 

Ah! Gotcha. 

 

The only thing I don't like about the coach idea is we already have that and it doesn't work in my council. They're called unit commissioners. I bet you'd be a great coach. I can guarantee you that we don't have anyone with any experience at turning troops around. Besides, people might not listen to a coach. As much as I don't like power point presentations some structure would help.

 

 

Yes, but that isn't really what UCs are tasked to do. They are supposedly trained to be very hands off on advising process and practice. I think there is even a part in their handbook on how to bite their tongue without showing blood. I can also see the problems of coaches taking to much of an active role. It would have some challenges.

 

I hadn't thought of the moms-want-male-roll-models scenario. Here's another one. Don't moms also want that for their daughters? My wife is the softy and I'm the hard one. We appreciate that both are needed for both our kids, a son and a daughter. Also, shouldn't every girl be exposed to men that treat women right? How many single moms of daughters would like their daughters to know what a gentleman is?

 

Yes, add that to your list. 

 

 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

Just received my invite to our council's meeting.  It was mentioned in the email that the discussion of Family Accessibility would likely lead to girls participating cub scouts potentially as soon as this coming January.

[RememberSchiff]

Just received my invite to our council's meeting.  It was mentioned in the email that the discussion of Family Accessibility would likely lead to girls participating cub scouts potentially as soon as this coming January.

 

Ask if they will have to take the exit before the Cross-Over bridge?

[Eagledad]

Just received my invite to our council's meeting.  It was mentioned in the email that the discussion of Family Accessibility would likely lead to girls participating cub scouts potentially as soon as this coming January.

So the meeting is more about telling then asking.

 

National has no integrity with me.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

Just received my invite to our council's meeting.  It was mentioned in the email that the discussion of Family Accessibility would likely lead to girls participating cub scouts potentially as soon as this coming January.

 

Well, at least your council was willing to put some "truth in advertising" into their email.  I'm willing to bet that the majority of unit Scouters in my council have no idea what "Making Scouting Accessible for Families" really means, and therefore they do not know what the meeting is really about.  Which probably means they would have no interest in attending.

[Col. Flagg]

Just received my invite to our council's meeting.  It was mentioned in the email that the discussion of Family Accessibility would likely lead to girls participating cub scouts potentially as soon as this coming January.

 

Also typical of national: They on-board a new demographic in to the program right as the program is 3/4 of the way done with the Scouting year!!!

 

Well done BSA!!! 

[NJCubScouter]

Ask if they will have to take the exit before the Cross-Over bridge?

Could the BSA really be considering doing something that would cause that much chaos? By having programs for girls age 5-10 and 13/14-21 but with a gap in between?

[MattR]

I think here's your answer, NJ

 

https://youtu.be/fFDpe7GIuEk

 

This is a video from the national meeting. I found it here: https://www.glaacbsa.org/Scouting_Accessiblewhere there is also a place to sign up for a survey

 

It's about a half hour long. The driving force behind this is that there are fewer families with two parents and only one working. Consequently every youth program, GSUSA, Rotary, PTA, etc are declining in numbers. It looks like they are looking at local option for cub scouts with all boy dens, all girl dens, or a mix of boy and girl dens. It appears to me that they want to keep the single gender aspect of scouts.

 

From there Surbaugh said you can't just stop girls at cub scouts. The options are find another program or make one. Strong hunch but they don't want to find another. If they make one then there are a bunch of questions and it honestly sounded like the survey is to help with that. If there's a girl troop is the program identical to the boy's program, or is Eagle off the table. What about OA?

 

Anyway, I asked for a survey. I put in my council, name, and email. If I get one I'll try and post it.

[EmberMike]

So the meeting is more about telling then asking.

 

Or providing the illusion of welcoming comment on the matter. Sure you can comment all you want, but it's already happening anyway.

 

Even if this does indeed lead to co-ed scouting, and although I'm in favor of BSA going co-ed, I'm not a fan of how this is playing out. Although I've taken issue with some of the concerns others have about co-ed scouting, I've also acknowledged that there will be challenges to adding girls to the pack, and that there are certainly many valid concerns. I've got plenty of my own as well. And with those concerns in mind, the potential of seeing co-ed get fast-tracked into some councils as early as January is deeply concerning.

 

If that is indeed the plan, I think National is being downright reckless with this change. This should be a gradual move, with lots of time for discussion, planning, adjustments to training, etc. Instead, it sounds like packs will be expected to just jump right in, and work out the details as they go along. I thought this would take years to achieve. Instead we're talking about 2018. It's crazy. 

[EmberMike]

Interesting video. I watched it after my previous reply, so it did kind of fill in a few answers for me. 

 

1. This isn't a fast-tracked decision to go co-ed. They've been working on this, Surbaugh said hundreds of people have been involved and/or given input. They've been looking at this option for a while now. 

2. They're not calling it "co-ed", it will be Cub Scouting for Boys and Cub Scouting for Girls. Separate gender dens or separate gender packs entirely. 

3. Local option, no packs will be required to accept girls if they (or the charter) choose not to.

4. Sounds like they don't really know how this will work beyond the pack. There's a lot to be determined for how this program moves up to the troop level, OA, Eagle, etc. And they want to decide these things before going ahead with the change. 

 

This sounds like a business decision more than anything. Family scouting looks like a potential solution for National to buck the trend of declining interest in "legacy" organizations like scouts, elks, PTA, etc. 

 

It also sounds like it's happening, regardless of what anyone thinks. Surbaugh did say that the option to stop this conversation and pass on the idea of girls in BSA was a valid option. But I doubt it's really on the table. Everything about this that I've seen so far seems to indicate that it's happening. Surbaugh thinks that without Family Scouting, the erosion continues, no way around it. It sounds like he views this as a critical move, one the BSA has to make. 

[ianwilkins]

We had a couple of these mothers. Part of their conflict is they felt participating with their son was interupting the male role model experience that they valued from the program. That isn't on your list either.

 

 

Thinking about it, I suspect for us some of our mothers like their daughters to have a decent male role model in their lives too. I.e. their daughters get to interact with a decent male, you know, that isn't a feckless wastrel like their father. Not many of them granted, but probably some.

 

Yep, and it is even more complicated by National's reputation of acting without listening.

Probably cold comfort but sometimes it feels (and is) like that over here too.