BB Guns etc. No Longer Allowed as Unit Activity

[T2Eagle]

I just found out that BB Guns, Archery, etc., are no longer allowed as a unit activity for Cubs.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/510-322_WEB.pdf

Archery, BB gun shooting, and slingshot shooting are not approved unit activities.

 

Cub Scout shooting sports programs may be conducted only on a district or council level. Archery, BB gun shooting, and slingshot shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and where all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced.

 

My troop puts on a weekend for our Pack every fall.  One of the activities we offer is BB shooting.  Several of our adults are certified to run the range and this all takes place at out council camp.  So if I can call it a council event it would be fine, but if I call it a unit event suddenly it's a no go.

 

If anyone can explain to me why two activities with the same people, same rules, and at the same BSA owned property aren't both either safe enough to conduct or too dangerous to conduct I'd love to hear it.

[CNYScouter]

Got told the same thing at a Cub Scout event our pack started hosting about 6 years ago year (another Pack hosted it before then).

 

There were shooting sports at this every year (about 8 years) with no problem then last year we were told that shooting sports are not allowed because it is not a District/Council event.

 

It had nothing to do with qualified people or the rules or insurance (we had additional insurance through BSA national that said shooting sports were covered).

 

The only reason given, it is not a District/Council event.

 

As a side note - we decided just not to have shooting sports at this years event - it wasn't worth it for the hoops we had to jump through to make it a District/Council event.

 

We still had over 650 show up for the event.

[NJCubScouter]

I think this has been the policy for years.

 

Since it is at the council camp and you have the proper supervision in place, and since two units are participating (the troop and the pack) maybe your council would agree to call this a "council activity" without requiring you to make any other changes. It's worth a phone call to find out.

Edited November 11, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[Eagle94-A1]

Policy has been around a very long time. Earliest I remember is 1998. And it's  been in the Guide to Safe Scout, Shooting Sports manuals etc for as long as I remember.

 

That said, on the Cub Scout level, one definition of a district/council event is 2 or more packs together doing the same activity. I know there has been talk having a Shooting Sports Day for all Cub Scouts in my district for some time. Just don't have the staff.

[JasonG172]

Its always been a District Level event, never unit level.

 

thats here though,

[T2Eagle]

I'm chagrined to say I did just look back and found it in old G2SS.  I know we never covered it in the Range Safety training, which I've taken every two years for about a decade, either it was glossed over or it didn't make the syllabus.

 

So I have some hoops to jump through this afternoon to become a council event.  I'm not as spry as I used to be, but I think I can get through them.

[NJCubScouter]

So I have some hoops to jump through this afternoon to become a council event.  I'm not as spry as I used to be, but I think I can get through them.

And the gold medal for bureaucratic hoop-jumping goes to...

[CalicoPenn]

I can give you an answer - you aren't going to like it - you'll think it's ridiculous - and you'll think it is so because you wlil be looking at the activity through the lens of your personal experience with your Troop and Pack, especially since you've got the safety requirements down and the trained people to be able to do it right.

 

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Packs do not have the training, and the trained people, to run a Cub Scout BB/Archery Range - they just don't.  Couple that with Cub Scout Packs having the greatest leadership turnover on a year to year basis, and you have a recipe for trouble. 

 

Lets reflect and be perfectly honest here - we've all read the G2SS - we know what the policies are (or the most part - this thread proves we sometimes skim it) - but there are times that parts of it are ignored - deliberately sometimes, conveniently sometimes, through ignorance of the policies sometimes - it happens, even in the best of units.  After all, it's just a "guide", right?

 

So when it comes to the shooting sports - how many Packs are going to take the time to do it right?  If given the chance, how many do you think would read a pamphlet on how to set up and run a BB Gun range and decide that's all the training they need?

 

I know we love to think that their are all kinds of nefarious things going on in the risk management offices and that those folks are just waiting to suck all the fun out of Scouting but sometimes, it's just an easy decision to make - its far easier to just say no to some activities than to try to police it - I know we're all Scouters and are supposed to be living the Scout Law but lets face it - there are an awful lot of folks out there that would put the name of a range certified person that left the Pack 3 years ago on the tour permit.

 

If the BSA was thinking in multi-dimensions, though - the way to do this would be to allow Troops to run ranges and invite Packs to come by - it would be a good recruiting tool, and Troops tend to have more stable leadership and adults more willing to take and keep current with the required training.

[SSScout]

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.....

 

Our DE really wanted a local mosque to pick up Scouting.   They sponsored a "get to know Scouting" event for all the Muslim families.  Folks came from (I am not making this up) 30 miles away. Must have had 100 people there, 25 or 30  kids.   They even built a new (permanent!) campfire circle (concrete and brick) in their back yard, one of the mosque leaders was a pro-astronomer, set up a serious telescope for the event.  And the DE arranged for Council archery equipment, but when I showed up late in the afternoon, no BSA Range officer.  Well, this was  not a "BSA " event, it was a "mosque"  event.  Glad I was not asked to help with the archery.... Ho hum.  

The mosque Troop lasted three years. 

[krypton_son]

I always thought that was ridiculous personally.  I was a firearms instructor for a while, I think it's important for scouts to learn firearms safety and use.  It's always been a part of scouting, hopefully it always will be.

[meyerc13]

I hate this rule too, but I understand it.  I've seen Cub Scout leaders from other Packs do some stupid things at the BB gun range at our Cub Scout resident camp.  Sometimes it is just easier for the BSA to ban something than to ensure that it is done safely.

[RichardB]

To the best of my knowledge 

 

I just found out that BB Guns, Archery, etc., are no longer allowed as a unit activity for Cubs.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/510-322_WEB.pdf

Archery, BB gun shooting, and slingshot shooting are not approved unit activities.

 

Cub Scout shooting sports programs may be conducted only on a district or council level. Archery, BB gun shooting, and slingshot shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and where all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced.

 

My troop puts on a weekend for our Pack every fall.  One of the activities we offer is BB shooting.  Several of our adults are certified to run the range and this all takes place at out council camp.  So if I can call it a council event it would be fine, but if I call it a unit event suddenly it's a no go.

 

If anyone can explain to me why two activities with the same people, same rules, and at the same BSA owned property aren't both either safe enough to conduct or too dangerous to conduct I'd love to hear it.

 

So what is interesting to me is that if you have "certified" or trained adults how could they not have known?   Really, really want to understand your situation.    

 

Now the program material / publication you linked is a new one, however you could go back to the shooting sports manual and the cub scouts shooting sports manual (out of print - superceeded) before that http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/ShootingSports.aspx.  I'm thinking at least 20 years back where this has been the case.     

 

Richard

[CNYScouter]

I can fully understand "not knowing" happening.

The rules from our shooting sports committee keep changing depending who is the Council Shooting Sports Director and who is the council Key 3.

 

At least 10 years ago our council bought a trailer and set it up as a portable BB Gun range.

Any Pack could ask to have it at one for their events and it was used a lot

A couple of years later we called to get it and we told it was no longer available for Pack events - only District/Council events

It now is only used a few times a year.

Most packs had no idea this was changed.

 

As I said we were allowed to have shooting sports at our pack run event until a couple years ago.

This draws Packs from just about every district in our council and packs from 2 or 3 other councils.

 

What happened was that our new Council President and VP of Program decided that to be a District or Council event, registration and registration fees (and a few other things) had to be handled through the council office. Since our Pack do these ourselves it not a District/Council event so no shooting sports.

 

As a side note - the new Council shooting sports director was at our event this year and asked me why we didn't have shooting sports. I explained to him what I was told about not being able to have shooting sports. Next year he as assured us that he is going to have shooting sports at our event - we will see what happens.

 

Any Troop/Crew in our council can go to our local scout camp and rent one of the shooting ranges.

A Pack can not because it's not a District/Council event.

 

I met the shooting sport director from the council to our south.

Packs can come to their camps and shoot as along as someone from their shooting sports committee runs the range

Anyone on the shooting sports committee is considered to be on the Council staff

Since a Council level person is running the event it's a council event so shooting sports are OK.

 

When you have the rules being changed every couple of years and not telling anyone or the rules change depending on who is in charge I can see why someone might not know.

[RichardB]

@@CNYScouter the problem is the program has not been changed in years.   The local execution may have changed, the local knowledge may have changed, it appears maybe even evolved to follow the standards, but the BB gun program of the BSA has been stable.    

 

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[NJCubScouter]

Huffington post recently put out an article titled "Bernie Sanders Could Replace President Trump With Little-Known Loophole".   It's a great article, has a couple relevant tips. 

 

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