skeptic 997 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 They tend to be more complex in critical thinking then the religious.... For some reason, I found myself reminded of the saying "Let go, Let God" as I read this. At the core, the biggest difference between the atheist and God believer is the willingness to let go of a part of themselves in understanding or Faith that there IS a power beyond themselves and their understanding. In between perhaps is the agnostic, who has not quite made an absolute decision in that regard. On the other hand, I am not so sure that atheists are not still agnostic in reality, due to their tendencies to question and search so hard for "rational" reason in relation to that power we sense beyond, but cannot quite comprehend. Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 At the core, the biggest difference between the atheist and God believer is the willingness to let go of a part of themselves in understanding or Faith that there IS a power beyond themselves and their understanding. Your statement is assuming your metaphysics is actually true, which atheists don't grant. It also doesn't appear to relate to former believers who later became atheists. Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3683 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Peregrinator is right. The oath is a guide of how to apply the law, the law is a list of actions to be applied at appropriate moments that confront the scout. If you are wondering if the creators of the oath and law did that on purpose, the answer is yes. I can’t find my source now, but there is some information that backs up Peregrinator. Barry Good luck finding what the intent was then. (here's when Kudu comes to the rescue) There is no mention of duty to family in the BSA Scout Oath. I have been puzzled about that omission. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Theists believe there is a God, Atheists believe there is no God. Nothing more than opposite sides of the same coin. The both believe there is or isn't a God. Neither can empirically prove their position so they both have to rely on faith to make it work for them. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I'm just glad that we live in a country where people aren't killed because of their belief systems. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I'm just glad that we live in a country where people aren't killed because of their belief systems. That, my friend is one of the best things about our country. I'm thinking that with all the hassle back in Europe for just this reason, it was included in our basic Bill of Rights! Sometimes politicians, even the newbies at it, can get it right. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Good luck finding what the intent was then. The intent is easy, when man is prioritized before God, then man sets his standards of moral behavior before God's. Man is fickle and too often lead by emotion. God is principled, reasoned, consistent, and never changing. Once we take God out as the lead for moral and ethical decision making, man will dictate what “do my best†means by his emotion of the moment. By the way, you know God didn't prioritize family first in commanding loving they neighbor. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
duckfoot 80 Posted May 22, 2014 Author Share Posted May 22, 2014 At the core of this issue is that we are talking about children, who have zero idea of a) what god is, B) what a god is, or c) what no belief in god is. They are still learning to be themselves, learning about the world. Shit, at 41 I'm still learning who I am and find new things everyday. We tell them they have to believe in god to be a scout when they do not really have an inkling of an idea of what that is. Granted, they probably have no idea of the rest of the oath and law and our job as Scoutmasters is to foster those ideals and I'm ok with that. Being honest is rather cut and dried but I'm not a priest, rabbi, grand poobah, or any of their ilk, just as soon leave that stuff to the ones who are. I can show a boy how to splint an arm or tie a sheepshank, I can't show a boy what to believe in nor do I want to, that's for him to figure out. I do know you can be Reverent and not believe in god with a capital g or little baby Jesus. You can believe in a whole host of other things and still be reverent. But if you believe there is no god, then you can't be a scout, which I believe is wrong. I'm not saying that we can't not have worship service on Sunday at camp. I'm not saying we shouldn't give the big guy upstairs his due. I'm just saying that not everyone believes and that's ok. If you don't, come be a scout anyway. It's a lot of fun. Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 God is principled' date=' reasoned, consistent, and never changing.[/quote'] Which is why slavery is still legal. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Which is why slavery is still legal. Legality is not a spiritual issue it is an earthly governmental issue. There's no rule that says earthly laws have to have anything to do with any moral code. Do I go to Hell because I don't pay my parking fine? The argument is ridiculous. And if the Biblical principles are to be followed, every 49 years all slaves are set free. So where's it's legal is not following any moral principle within the Judeo-Christian tradition anyway. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Legality is not a spiritual issue it is an earthly governmental issue. There's no rule that says earthly laws have to have anything to do with any moral code. Call me crazy, but I consider slavery immoral. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 At the core of this issue is that we are talking about children' date=' .[/quote'] No, this is not about the children, its about the foundation of the BSA principles. The BSA vision is developing moral decision makers and God has been set as the reference the organization as a whole to be principled in the moral concept. If you don’t let God lead in morality, then who? You? The only other choice would be to change the vision to something without morality. At that point you have a camping program that is a lot of fun. But you don’t have a program of values as its goal. We tell them they have to believe in god to be a scout when they do not really have an inkling of an idea of what that is .[/quote ] Boys learn from role models and the role models are supposed to have some inkling of God. Now we can go back and forth of promises and what a scout must do to meet requirements, but I have never met an adult who wasn't willing to allow the boys a scouting experience to learn how they feel about spiritual aspect of the program. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
Peregrinator 85 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 How so? If by listing order then Cheerful takes precedence over Reverent. I mean as a general principle, nothing to do with the Promise or the Law. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Call me crazy, but I consider slavery immoral. So what's that got to do with anything being legal? I think infanticide is immoral too, but there's a lot of laws that make it legal. So what it boils down to is the individual's moral code has zero impact on governmental legislation. Sometimes one gets lucky and they are in sync. But it's probably just a coincidence. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 So what's that got to do with anything being legal? My remark about slavery had to do with Eagledad's statement, which was explicitly about "standards of moral behavior": "God is principled, reasoned, consistent, and never changing." Link to post Share on other sites
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