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BSA National leadership or lack of and the local option

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Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck.

 

I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models.

 

Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that.

 

I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality.

 

Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier.

 

Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves.

 

So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

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Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck.

 

I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models.

 

Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that.

 

I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality.

 

Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier.

 

Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves.

 

So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

"No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models."

 

April 19, 2010

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/young-flock-to-join-scouts-for-adventure-1948207.html

Elderly ladies stranded on the wrong side of the road can breathe a sigh of relief. The UK now has more Scouts than at any time in the past 40 years. Membership of the group has reached almost 500,000, show figures published today. More than 16,500 people have joined since January last year, the fifth consecutive annual rise.

 

Contrary to the commonly held belief that Britain's youth is an increasingly sedentary bunch, the Scout Association said a major reason for the surge was down to record levels of interest from teenagers. Some 65,000 teenagers are now involved in Scouting, a rise of more than 26 per cent since 2001.

...

 

This is after the UK SA made it clear that they don't discriminate against gays:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185081.pdf

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Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck.

 

I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models.

 

Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that.

 

I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality.

 

Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier.

 

Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves.

 

So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

Eagledad, you are again making the assumption that organizations that are not religion-based do not have values. From my perspective the BSA starting going downhill when it became exclusive and required all members to be religious.

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Leadership? Not so much' date=' IMHO. Merely capitulating to "market forces." It's seems to them to be the most expedient thing to give in to the pressure of our culture that declares that any and all sexual behavior should be embraced and celebrated. The group that trumpets their sexual behavior loud and long wins day. BTW: that loud chorus has no love of the local option and will continue their chants until the BSA someday completely forbids any CO to charter unless fully inclusive.[/quote']

 

and that's the rub, aint it.

Sad day when such a small minority screams so loud that they seem like a majority..... and they push for freedom, as long as it's their freedom and not yours.

Capitulating indeed.......

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Leadership? Not so much' date=' IMHO. Merely capitulating to "market forces." It's seems to them to be the most expedient thing to give in to the pressure of our culture that declares that any and all sexual behavior should be embraced and celebrated. The group that trumpets their sexual behavior loud and long wins day. BTW: that loud chorus has no love of the local option and will continue their chants until the BSA someday completely forbids any CO to charter unless fully inclusive.[/quote']

 

and that's the rub, aint it.

Sad day when such a small minority screams so loud that they seem like a majority..... and they push for freedom, as long as it's their freedom and not yours.

Capitulating indeed.......

The most important post I have read in the last few weeks on this forum is the one from Lodge489 who stated that two thirds of the councils weighed in wanting to change the membership policies. So much for outside forces pressuring the BSA into surrendering their values. I have stated before I believe that the majority of BSA volunteers and parents never wanted the BSA to be exclusive.

 

I very much hope the BSA will release the result of the upcoming vote in May. Don't be afraid of transparency, let the world see what the members think.

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Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck.

 

I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models.

 

Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that.

 

I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality.

 

Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier.

 

Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves.

 

So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

How would today's YP policies not work with gay leaders or gay scouts? They work with female leaders, and they work with Venture Scouts.

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I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies.

 

You mean we will have to Change TWO DEEP LEADERSHIP AT ALL TIMES !!!

You Mean We will have to Change NO ONE ON ONE..ADULT/YOUTH Situations

 

What part of the Current YP has to be changed?

Tell us exactly what will have to change?

Do we allow NonCustodial Adults to be alone with Noncustodial Youths Now?

Do we allow NonCustodial Adults to share Tents with NonCustodial Youths Now?

Do we allow NonCustodial Adults to teach Sex ED to NONCustodial youths Now?

Do we only allow missionary Postions to be Taught?

Do we Allow Sexual Heterosxual Activites between Consenting Individuals Now on Scout Activities?

 

 

I have always wondered what the Official Uniform for a Scout troop is on a Nudist Colony?

 

 

 

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Keep in mind that even now, the BSA policy does not encourage gay or heterosexual members to "flaunt" their sexuality - that is not what the program is all about. If the BSA goes to a local option, I don't see any issue at all with camporees or "mixing" of units that may have different membership standards.

 

Right now, many units do not allow female leaders of troops (SMs & SAs). Those units don't have an issue mingling with troops that do. Why should this be any different?

Because female leaders aren't in the shower house or the latrine or the tents with the boys?

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"If national made a policy change across the board to accept gays, would the LDS and Catholic CO's (maybe some others) drop their charters? Maybe, maybe not... I'm guessing on principle, most would want to, but I'm not sure how they face the youth they serve once they no longer have access to the program and the council camps . etc."

 

I don't know that the large church COs would lose anything. Some churches already have scout organizations outside the BSA (Royal Rangers, Royal Ambassadors, Pathfinders, etc.). Some churches already have outdoor camp properties (I found cysc.com, here's a link to WI UMC camps http://wiumcamps.org/). Here's commentary from the SBC (http://www.christianindex.org/8614.article) on their interest in pursuing a different course based on the decision. The AHG exists for at least some of the same reasons. If the LDS church said "no more scouts" it would no doubt end. I suspect the same is true for the SBC and to a lesser level for the Catholics and Methodists. Some of their scouts might join other troops but others wouldn't.

 

If in fact the local option leads to local law suits I would expect some large defections.

 

 

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The Dale decision still stands, private groups can set their own leadership and membership standards. I don't forsee any troop getting sued.

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I think this idea is being explored in a number of other threads. However your questions are still good.

 

As has been brought up before the BSA is now in a no-win position where there is no answer that will please everybody.

 

I still think the local option is the best solution. I don't think the BSA can continue being exclusive, not when it appears that two thirds of the

councils don't want it that way. And I don't think you can force a CO to accept members they don't want.

 

There will be people who will stomp off but I am agreeing with some of the other posters here that there won't be very many.

There will be troops that will avoid each other but overall I am really thinking this is going to settle down, and fairly quickly.

2/3rds of the councils want a change? I guess I missed that, can you reference where you got that please?

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Keep in mind that even now, the BSA policy does not encourage gay or heterosexual members to "flaunt" their sexuality - that is not what the program is all about. If the BSA goes to a local option, I don't see any issue at all with camporees or "mixing" of units that may have different membership standards.

 

Right now, many units do not allow female leaders of troops (SMs & SAs). Those units don't have an issue mingling with troops that do. Why should this be any different?

dcsimmons, the male leader should NOT be in the shower, latrine, or tents with the boys unless there is a safety issue.

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You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

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The Dale decision still stands, private groups can set their own leadership and membership standards. I don't forsee any troop getting sued.
Yah, the Dale case was decided on relatively narrow grounds related to expressive association. That gets tricky for lots of other organizations, eh? Not da churches, but a lot of da community organizations of various sorts, and the "friends of" groups and such.

 

Plus, it won't be long before the gay male dad who was turned down for a leadership position by a Catholic chartered organization gets picked up by the press to launch another media campaign about how da discriminatory BSA should dump the charters of any church or other organization that isn't fully inclusive. That will become da next "civil rights" issue.

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