Knot tying technical question

[Scoutfish]

So as a new ASM, I am going to review the scouts from the newest patrol on their Scout badge to see if they are ready to go to the BOR for that badge.

 

So I was talking with a long time ASM and he was going over fine details and such.

 

So when we get to the square knot, he says "Right over and then under the left side, then left over then under right."

 

So here's my question: Does it have to specifically be right side first or can they do it opposite with the left side first?

 

Not trying to split hairs, just wondering as I do not want to short change the requirement.

 

I do not see in the book where it specifically says this, but it does start with the right side first.

 

The reason I am asking is this: I have been tying this know for over 22 years myself, but I never actually gave thought to, or paid any attentiuon as to which side I started with first.

 

Personally, I'd think as long as they tye the knot - it shouldn't matter. But maybe it does?

 

I know that uniform knots are displayed in a specific way so ..............

 

 

Thanks!

 

[NealOnWheels]

It does not matter they are functionally equivalent.

 

A lot of the knots can be tied in different ways.

[Troop24]

Tying the square knot: left over right then right over left produces the same quality knot as tying it right over left then left over right. The difference is that the loop on top changes sides. I dont know if there is a proper side for the loops to be on, though. I do know that on my few adult knots I have been informed the knot on the right side should be on top. But who knows what that symbolizes.

 

My real concern though is the idea that you are reviewing your new scouts to ensure they are ready for a board of review. The board should never be a re-test of knowledge. Once the achievement has been signed off it has been earned. You even stated in another thread:

 

Are they already signed off on AoL by the former DL?

 

If so, go ahead and give it to them like Eamonn said. It's not really your place to back track at this point.

 

Same concept applies here. Once the person authorized by the Scoutmaster to sign off on achievements is satisfied the Scout has learned the requirement and is proficient then they initial the Scout's book. The board of review is a tool to ensure the program is meeting its goals but not through retesting. National policy as shown in Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures (#33088, pages 28-30) says a board of review is:

 

"A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the unit. The unit committee can judge how well the Scout being reviewed is benefiting from the program. The unit leader can measure the effectiveness of his or her leadership. The Scout can sense that he is, or is not, advancing properly and can be encouraged to make the most of his Scouting experience.

Not only is it important to review those Scouts who have learned and been tested for a rank, but also to review those Scouts who have shown no progress in their advancement over the past few months.

 

The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community."

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Troop,

Let me claify:

 

I am the one who is going to sign off the book and be the one who says he has satisfied the requirements of the rank.

 

This is before they go to the BoR.

 

I am not going to be on the Bor , nor is the BOR going to re-test them.

 

I am going to review ( or test- call it what you want) the scouts to see if they know the requirements ( which they all do since they just earned AoL) , and then sign off in the book .

 

Then they can ask for a BoR.

 

I never said the BoR was going to test them. Never said I was on the BoR.

 

I am going to review them, to make sure they are ready to go to the BOR. IF they are ready, I will sign off in the book, If not, I will encourage them to keep at it and help them with learning the knots.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

Double post :

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Eagledad]

Ignore The man behind the curtain Scoutfish, "Retest" is one of scouting's silly politically correct terms to scare adults away from a learning a Scout's progress in the program. I wonder if we could call it helicopter leading.

 

Anyway, right over left, left over right, is just a fast visual aid. Same goes for knots using the rabbit running around the tree. Study the mechanics of the knot and learn what it should look like, that way you don't care how the scout gets there.

 

And remember it's just as important the scouts know the purpose of each knot. Personally I always start there.

 

Barry

[packsaddle]

Scoutfish, You can tie in either the left-handed OR the right-handed configuration. Both ways are acceptable.

[Stosh]

The way I teach square knots is simple, the rule applies to about 90% of all knots.

 

OVER UNDER! That's it.

 

For knot tying instruction I take two pieces of parachute cord of different colors, let's just say black and white for now.

 

Hold the two pieces points up one black, one white, doesn't make any difference which is right or left. Then have the boy declare one or the other as running (moving) and the other standing (stationary). Let's say black is running Take the running black rope and put it over (in front of)the other and go under. What you have now is a reversal of sides, the black is now on the other side but it is still running so it goes back over (in front of) the white and under. Pull tight you have a square knot.

 

For the double half-hitch loop around pole, the short end is running. Lay it over the other rope and loop under coming up in the loop. Do it a second time, it always works.

 

Taut line, same but go over/under twice in the loop before extending out and going over under in the new loop.

 

Clove hitch, lay the rope along the pole, go over/under coming back up in the loop, go down the pole and do the same over under. It's a double half-hitch on a pole instead of a rope.

 

It usually only takes once or twice for the boys to remember over/under and they learn the knots very quickly.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Ask the Scout! If he truely understands how to tie a square knot, he should be able to look at one and tell if it is tied correctly. Show him how to push the two sides of the knot together so that the loops move freely of each other (which shows that it IS tied correctly). Or that by pulling on opposite ends of the rope how a granny knot will come apart.

 

When they see how the knots work and know for themselves if it is correct is when they move from rote memorization to understanding.

 

 

[JoeBob]

For an twist on the Square Knot, check out the Thieves Knot:

 

http://www.rcarchive.com/scouts/thief.html

[Scoutfish]

They definantly know how to tie it. I've seen them do it many times. I just never paid attention to which side they started with...but since left/right doesn't matter - it's a non-issue now.

 

The boys from the other pack that joined our troop...Don't know.

 

But they should know how to tie it since they too just recently earned their Arrow of Light.

[boomerscout]

right side first because that is how right-handers naturally do things. A leftie would start left side first.

In one of Cliff Jacobsen's books on knot tying, the illustrations looked strange because he is left-handed

Orientation can sometimes be a problem. Consider the bowline. In a patrol competition we have them tie a bowline around a tree stump. Stage two is to tie a bowline around the same stump, but this time the stump is to be between the boy and the knot. The different "view" can throw many off.

[skeptic]

My question is are we talking about the entry level, Scout? If so, then there is NO board of review, only a SM conference and final approval. BOR is not done until Tenderfoot. Am I misreading this?

[Scoutfish]

Skeptic,

 

You know what, I looked in te 12th edition book ( and I assume that the earlier editions are pretty much the same) and actually do not see scout as a rank that has a checkoff page. I only see joining requirements and that scout is the first rank.

 

When I brought this up to another ASM, he told me that I ( as the ASM of the new patrol) will review the material ( ie: test their knowledge) and check them off. At that time, they go to BoR or Scoutmaster.

 

Now, he may have not said this as a true BoR . He may not have even said BoR at all. Maybe I just thought I heard it. Could be he said Sm review.

 

To be honest, we were talking about this while also setting up for an Eagle ceremony.

 

I can't lie and say I never misheard somebody or that I never mis stated something to somebody else while I was busy doing something.

[qwazse]

The man is trying to help new crossovers for the first time!

 

'Fish, your troop may do it differently, or you may have confused SMC for BOR. Either way, it's not the problem that these folks are trying to make it out to be. The boys will have a fine scouting career with caring adults like yourself.

 

Also, back to knots, the taught line can end with the last hitch going around the the standing in in the same direction as the first two, or in the opposite direction. It will hold under tension regardless.