Adrianvs

There is a misconception that in approaching this issue, one must choose between two mutually exclusive options. Option A: One must always follow all rules of whatever organization (which includes national laws) that one belongs to, no matter what. Option B: One must only follow those rules which one deems important. (Coincidently, followers of Option B routinely invoke common consensus on what rules they consider important [safety, etc.] as evidence of their opinion.) In any event, the crux of this issue can be found in neither of these positions (one or both of which may be

Trevorum, The utterance of Bob White which you objected to as a personal attack (ad hominem) is as follows: "Choosing to ignore a rule or law that does not seek to harm anyone one simply protect property and other people simply because it doesn't suit you personally is just lazy and self centered." You stated that Bob had refered to you with the clause "lazy and self-centered." Look closer at the sentence, however, and you will see that the subject of it is "Choosing to ignore a rule or law...because it doesn't suit you personally..." The subject matter of the sentence is an a

"And that is precisely why scouts have adopted the notion of a 'Class B' to use as a field uniform. Our current 'Class A' uniform is designed for what Baden-Powell disparagingly referred to as 'Parlour Scouting'. I know of very, very few units who actually hike, camp, and squat over campfires in the official uniform. I'm sure there are some units out there who do, but they are in a minority." The problem is that the so-called activity uniform requires one to wear the exact same pair of pants. Changing from the tan field shirt to a tee shirt and from the trucker cap to the expedition hat

"But when we camp each leader there has a phone. They are used for emergencies only. 99% of the phones that kids have have games on them. They don't need to be at camp." You mean that every troop officer, from the SPL to the assistant patrol leaders, has a cellular phone? Or are you using the term "leader" to apply only to adults? No wonder the "kids" can't handle phones with games on them. No on is expecting them to be leaders..

"While I do believe that there is only one God, and in my view I really do agree with Baden Powell that it is better to do good than be good." Evil is as evil does. Virtue is learned. Faith without works is dead.

"I choose to be all these things only [when] I see the appreciation for my efforts." I didn't realize that the Scout Law had conditions for application. You are in effect saying that you are only a scouter when you expect that others will demonstrate appreciation for your actions. The true measure of a scout or scouter is what he does when he expects no recompense or even appreciation. The Scout Law is rooted in being, not a utilitarian expectation of gratitude or reward. "A Scout IS..." NOT "A Scout does...ONLY WHEN..." Anyone who subscribes to the latter is no scout o

Merlyn, Would you object to a government sponsored program (however you choose to define that) which discriminates against nihilists? Any group which subscribes to any ethical code and demands that its members do the same discriminates against nihilists. Some religions are theistic, so atheism is a religious principle. Fine, I will agree to that. Some religions are purely ethical, so nihilism is a religious principle as well. So tell me why your religious principles of "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" can be sponsored by a public school, but someone else's principle of an Absolu

Try the Elkhorn High Adventure Base on the Ben Delatour Scout Ranch. It is in a beautiful part of north central Colorado which is much nicer than New Mexico (in my opinion). You also don't have the crowds, cost, or regulation issues of Philmont. Treks are encouraged to plan their own routes and our crew decided to do some extensive bushwhacking, taking into account water sources and possible camping locations. The High Adventure Base offers a great deal of flexibility. Crews can spend the entire time on the trail or combine a shorter trail trip with rappelling/climbing and horseback ridin

Even if there were nothing else, the word "vocsablaries" would have made the previous post worthwhile. :-)

Wojauwe, I'm intrigued by your login name. Translated as "chief" (seemingly synonymous with the older word "sakima"), "wojauwe" is the official Lenne Lenapi title for chapter chiefs. When I first saw your name, I assumed that you were a chapter chief. You mentioned in the thread, however, that your entire OA experience has been as an adult. Is "Wojauwe" part of your Vigil Honor name? I've only heard the word "sakima" used for this purpose, never "wojauwe."

hahahaha... Remember, kids, that a simple 'e' can change a common and useful element into a rather humorous polymer. Further evidence that I should not post after 11:00 PM.

Charcloth is easy to make without endangering your paws. I use pure cotton cloth (unbleached muslin) and an Altoids can. I cut the cloth into pieces that fit inside the can and fill it up. You can do quite a bit of charcloth at a time this way. I then put the charcloth over some flames or coals (a small stove works great for this), and wait until flames begin to leap out of the tiny holes in the Altoids can hinge. These are the volatiles being burned out of the cotton cloth. Once the flames have stopped (and I tap the can with something to be sure that they are all finished), I take the

By definition, "the program" is "that which works in every situation." If someone submits that THE PROGRAM cannot be truly manifested in a particular situation, it will be stated that it was the fault of the practitioners, not an inherent problem with THE PROGRAM. I am reminded of the adherents of communism, who defend the failures of communist regime after regime by stating that they weren't REALLY practicing communism. The problem wasn't with dialectical materialism, they say, but with the failures of the individual practitioners. Remarkably, Bob's description of THE PROGRAM getting prog

Bob, Putting aside whatever arcane feud between yourself and Ed that has surfaced itself here, I would like your input on the question of "active." With all due respect, there is not much of a conversation going between you and Ps56k. I believe that you do have some more insight into the "active" question, but you haven't given any of it yet. Do you have anything more or not? Is there more than the word "active" than what we have said? Don't tell us to "recall our training" and somehow cognize the correct answer in virtue of that recollection. We are asking because we have alrea

Bob, I am confused. Ps56k wants some help in determining if a specific case meets the BSA standards of "active." You refer to some BSA literature and training, but have not yet given us any specific quotes or even principles that would help us to make this judgement. I have managed to find only one more detailed description in the Boy Scout Handbook and analyzed it, but we are awaiting anything more.. Anyone can claim "I follow the program" or "I have X% retention year by year" or "I am attuned to the BSA program" or whatever, but if they explicitly refer to the answer in BSA publ

Packsaddle, An extended backpacking trek (a la Philmont) may be considered and ordeal by many scouts (and adults). In fact, I consider long term treks that I have taken to have been more arduous than any ordeal or service project in the OA. Suppose then, that a scout wants that arrowhead patch, but is afraid of the trek and decides not to go because of it. Is that wrong in your opinion? Candidates hear the tests before they are asked whether they wish to continue. They have to decide whether this is something that they wish to with their fellow candidates to show their willingn

Bob has stated repeatedly that this is only his personal interpretation of the buddy system in the case of tenting. Of course he thinks it to be right; otherwise, it wouldn't be his interpretation. He has provided practical reasons for his opinion, but that is to be expected of anyone who defends his position. There are varying positions here as to exactly how strict or broad the buddy system should be applied, but no one should feel threatened by the mere rationale for one or another position.

The Boy Scout Handbook refers the reader to page 169 regarding the requirement to "Be active in your troop and patrol." The first paragraph reads: "To gain full advantage of all that Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If you're there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success." The subsequent merely indicate the amount of active time required for each rank. The first sentence alone seems to indicate that the scout must be present in all cas

As a program director, I decided to wear the field uniform full time, rather than wear the optional field uniform during the day. In doing this, I feared that some would see it as "condescending" or somehow elitist, much like the SPL. Fortunately, it did not seem to be taken this way. In fact, some staffers and scoutmasters made a point to tell me that they liked my "uniform philosophy." The fact that simply wearing a standard uniform can be described as a "philosophy" speaks to the power of the uniform. In any case, they did not feel like I was pressuring them, even though they were more

Again, You may disagree because you feel that the existance of the physcial world is just plain obvious and that the existance of God is mere religious conjecture. That is your (dare I say religious) belief. Just be equally aware that many people (Gandhi, Plato, Descartes, and Spinoza come to mind) hold that the existance of God is an obvious fact and that the existance of the physical world is a theoretical conjecture at best. Don't pretend that YOUR religious or philosophical truths should have more weight before the law than someone elses. They shouldn't. Two religious tr

First of all, I understand your position and I admit that I misunderstood it at first. "Of course, you haven't given any examples of students being refused membership in science clubs." You don't seem to understand what I mean by "de facto discrimination." You are right in that science clubs do not require members to sign statements of belief in the physical world or exclude members who do not sign. I used the qualifier "de facto" because the discrimination is of a different (albeit lesser) kind. Members of the science club are expected to have a philosophical belief in the phy

What makes you assume that I belong to a religion? "Mostly your ignorance about science." And where have I demonstrated ignorance of science? All I stated regarding science is that it is based on a philosophical assumption that the physical world exists. That is not a controversial claim. For you, science seems to be the materialist creed. Science is the systematic study of phenomena (perceivable events). It is inductive and probabilistic in nature. I happen to know a little bit about science. I have been a college level biology tutor and I teach high school level course

"Tell me of a public school or university that owns and operates a religious discriminatory organization (that is, if the school officials decided to end the group, the group would no longer exist), excludes potential members who don't meet certain religious criteria, and approve the leaders for the group. I don't think you can." All science clubs routinely practice de facto discrimination against those of idealistic faiths or ideologies. Do not underestimate the religious nature of belief in the physical world any more than you would for belief in the spiritual world. "Well, now

I served as the first-year camper program director at one of the camps I worked at this summer and picked up a few interesting patrol names: Dead Fish Flaming Tigers Barking Spiders Pyro-Squirrels Duh Boll Weevils I Don't Care Pyro Some of these were especially interesting because I designed a totem for each patrol. It was quite a challenge for some of them. I saved the designs for them in case they ever came up again. I don't think that National Supply currently stocks Pyro-Squirrel or Duh patches. We also had some of your more common names like Flaming Arrows,

Such an essay would likely have to be abridged for an SM, but it is a good illustration of positive morality. http://www.dur.ac.uk/martin.ward/gkc/books/chalk.html