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By the way, Bob, you did answer my question about the salutes. Even if the Webelos scouts were using the Scout Oath and Law most of the time, they would still salute with the Cub Scout salute. I do appreciate your answers even if I contest some of the premises used to formulate them.. ;-)

Bob WhiTE, "I thought from your first post you were asking a question, I had no idea that you had already made your decision." The first question was whether the den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law exclusively. The second question was whether the normative salute for Webelos Scouts doing so would be the Scout salute. You remarked that the Scout Oath and Law should only be used from time to time. This (despite being a reasonable personal opinion) is not indicated by the Fast Start training or handbook. The issues are closely related, but not the same. FOG,

"Can they use the Boy Scout Oath and Law for Den meetings? That is a good learning tool from time to time, but they are still Cubs and should continue to pledge to the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack as well." Please inform the authors of the Fast Start Guide of this as they continue to list the Cub Scout Promise as an option for den meetings after the Scout Oath or Law. "Opening...Recite the Scout Oath or Scout Law, or the Cub Scout Promise or Pledge of Allegiance." "Closing...Or they can recite the Scout Oath, Cub Scout Promise, or Scout Law, if not done earlier in the meeting

The Cub Fast Start Guide instructs Webelos dens to open meetings with either the Scout Oath and Law or the Cub Scout Oath and Law. The video images provided for online Fast Start training show Webelos Scouts using the Scout sign while reciting the Scout Oath or Law. This seems to indicate that a Webelos den may (or is encouraged to) use the Scout Oath and Law (and thus Sign) exclusively. IF a den were to use the Scout Oath, Law and Sign exclusively, then would the Scout salute be used normatively by the Webelos as well. The designations based on uniforms are not helpful as it is not clear

While it seems obvious that a Webelos scout would use the Scout sign when reciting the Scout Oath or Law, it has come to my attention that this may be the normative sign given by the den if they choose. In other words, it appears that a new Webelos den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law in place of the Cub Scout Promise and Law (at least during den activities). Is this the case? Can the den permanently "upgrade" to the Scout Oath and Sign when it sees fit? If this is the case, then does that make the normative salute for the Webelos den the Boy Scout salute? Does it at least give them

"That particular person seems to have been, to use another euphemism, 'dealt with.'" I haven't been following the boards very closely for the last several weeks. Can I take your euphemism to indicate that Wheeler was axed by the administrator? Or was there more of a collaborative effort of some sort? heh, I felt a pseudo-responsibility for the whole affair as it seems to have been my "Wimps and Barbarians" post that brought him to the forums or inspired him to start posting. I'm just curious as to what happened..

"Does any one know how many candidates don't survive the ordeal?" Survive or complete?

"None of you are trained in philosophy." Wheeler, I am trained in philosophy. I asked you a question before and I would like an answer. Plato, whom you quote as an infallible authority, stated that women could be members of the ruling class in his society. I would have to check, but I think that he also included them as members of the second class, the soldiers ruled by 'timos' or honor. You seem to indicate that leadership is exclusively male. He also proposes that children are raised collectively by members of the class they belong to. Plato argued for the dissolution of the

Laudato si, mi signore, per sora nostra morte corporale, da laquale nullu homo vivente po skappare. Guai acqueli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali! Beati quelli ke trovarane le tue santissime voluntati, ka la morte secunda nol fara' male.

Wheeler, Plato disagrees quite strongly with Aristotle on the nature of aristocracy and the ruling class in the ideal society. You seem to favor Aristotle's model. Can you explain the errors that Plato made and how they were corrected by Aristotle?

I was not refering to those who are active in the Order of the Arrow. I was not even refering to those individuals who neglect their unit and yet remain active in their Lodge. That is unfortunate, but I was referring to an OA program which fails to preserve local camping traditions and support the council camping program. Year-round events are fine, but when the Lodge activities become an alternative to scout camping or even a supposedly integral part of being an arrowman, then the meaning is lost. When being an arrowman means that you skip your local camp to attend the carnival called NOA

I'm with Lord Robert Baden-Powell on this one. Besides, there is nothing Marxist about giving children leadership positions or "some say." Marx and his intellectual progeny would give children far less responsibility and say than any sane philosopher. As for Dewey's education, I must remind you that BP did not deny that schoolmasters and parents were supposed to be authoritative figures. Instead, he stated that Scoutmasters were not to lead as schoolmasters or commanding officers. They were to lead as older brothers. Scouting is not school. Scouting is not the military. Scoutin

He should do his best to exemplify the Scout Oath and Law. He should promote scout camping and seek to preserve the camping traditions of his unit. He should seek to preserve a cheerful spirit, even in the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities. He should be an honor camper. He may do this through his troop or through his troop and local OA chapter or lodge. That decision will determine whether he will seek to seal his membership in the Order and become a Brotherhood member. That decision should be up to him.

In my opinion "Scouts who are not suited to life in the Patrols" are scouts who are not suited for life in the troops. It seems that patrol compatibility is the least of your problems here. I would be focusing on the "serious behaviour problems" before I concerned myself with creating a new position in which to place the scout. I think that you are fortunate to have a Scouting program which avoids all the "floater" positions that the BSA does and resembles BP's system better. I may be mistaken, but it sounds like the "Venture" patrol is composed of mainly older scouts. Could you just

We should remember that an arrowman's first and most important obligations are to his troop. I say that if he is remaining an active in his troop, keeping a cheerful spirit, fulfilling his responsibilities, and helping to preserve camping traditions for his unit and camp, then he is an excellent arrowman. He should also pay his lodge dues and try to help out where able, obviously, but his most important responsibilites as an arrowman are not to hang out with a bunch of other sash-wearers every other weekend. To me, that is a bastardization of the meaning and intent of the organization as ex

Happiness is good. Cicero was a notorious whiner. Even Augustine couldn't help but say so. Pictures of knights are good, too. That is all.

ASM1, I hope that you would at least let your family members return to the privacy of your own home before you commenced ripping their uniforms off. Would you rip your own uniform shirt off as well? May I suggest doing it Hulk Hogan style in your front lawn? Do you have a growl practiced for when you do righteous ripping? Tell me more about this mission to end Scouting. Do you have any details planned yet? I don't think that the BSA would ever ban women, of course, but I wonder how you would go about that. Are there any other bad policy decisions that would warrant your RIP, B

OK, here it goes.. I submit for your enjoyment a list of quotes from the 'Colossal Genius' himself, G.K. Chesterton: "The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice." - A Defense of Humilities, The Defendant, 1901 "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." - Everlasting Man, 1925 "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." - ILN, 4/19/30 "Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance." - The Speaker, 12/15/00 "An

I found the following take on Gibson's film to be quite telling. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12115

Acts 10:9-16, 28 You should read the entire chapters to understand the context, but there are the specific parts of Acts 10. Acts 15 is more general, referring to the validity of all traditional Jewish practices. The apostles make an executive decision here, deciding what will and will not be binding on the faithful. They are exercising apostolic authority here. Read through the Acts while looking at the ministry of Peter in relation to the Gentiles. The issue of obeying Levititical law comes up several times and the apostles (usually Peter) address the issue by stating that those who wi

I thought that Aristotle supported the governmental system of Aristocracy because it meant "Rule by Aristotle." Hmm...

"Your approach to philosophy is not the same approach of the ancients. They quoted their ancient literature and wisdom sayings of their "primitive" religion to prove points. Truth is truth." Socrates engaged in discussions. Yes, he occastionally quoted some poet, but it was only in conformity with normal Greek discourse. The quotes are part of Greek culture and known to the fellow speakers. It would be akin to you quoting "The Simpsons" or "Seinfeld," not ancient Greek authors. Furthermore, the quotes are very seldom made in Socratic discussions. Socrates does not regurgitate dozens

I think that Wheeler is a real person. While I disagree with some of his positions, I think that he is well-meaning and well-informed on many points. I think that he would be more welcomed if he let his philosophical and Scriptural knowledge inform his own discussions rather than bulk-quoting in response to anything. He has brought up some interesting points, but I think they get lost in the dramatics and overkill. I enjoyed his first couple of posts and was planning on responding with agreement and criticism where necessary, but they just kept coming too fast to bother. Now they seem mor

Born on a cold December night in 1981 in the American midwest..

hahahahahahaha... That's a good one OGE! It might be more accurate if the young man asks about merging Rationalism and Empiricism, however. My first philosophy professor was a Thomist, but wasn't Catholic; he was some sort of Protestant. Well, he said that his professors always referred to him as a "Peeping Thomist." I thought it was rather amusing..