acco40

Some would say, since man created both "science" and "religion", if knowledge of both were wiped out, they would both be created or reformulated to much like what we have today. The fact that we have ten fingers and toes helps to explain the Ten Commandments and the fact that we use base ten!

What about markers for all of those insects who've gone splat against the various automobile and truck windshields? As for myself, I find it distasteful to see the roadside markers where humans have been killed.

As for myself I relish the days of yesteryear when the Lions played in the Superbowl. Oh wait a minute, I can't seem to recall the date. Hail the colors Blue and Silver let them wave. Sing their song and cheer the Gridiron Heroes brave, Fighting for fame, winning the game, Dashing to victory as they go. Forward down the field, A charging team that will not yield. And when the Blue and Silver wave, Stand and cheer the brave. Rah, Rah, Rah. Go hard, win the game. With honor you will keep your fame. Down the field and gain, A Lion victory! GO LIONS!

Miss Rooster7? Packsaddle, my opinion of your profundity just dropped. As I post this I happen to see a "Donate Today" advertisement for Ron Paul who exclaims it will now take $6M to win in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida & Nevada (vs. $4M of yesterday). The pattern of asking a question and getting a reply one isn't really looking for and then haranguing the respondent is fairly typical in this forum.

Scouting has a vision and mission and methods to accomplish that mission. What I don't appreciate are Scouters who feel they have Carte Blanche to do it their way. Most boys expect the method of the outdoors. Most adults do too. However, you can peruse this forum and find countless postings from adults who claim thing like patrols and the uniform are not utilized the way they "do" scouting. Poppycock. If they don't use the patrol method and uniforming then it plain just isn't scouting.

I guess when I spent my time as a Scoutmaster and Den Leader I was in it for the boys but when I spent time as a unit commissioner (council/district position) and as a council/district trainer I was not. Thanks everyone for clarifying that for me. Without your help, I never would have understood my motives. As a Scoutmaster, I noticed the double edge sword - sort of like the "for the boys" phrase - of boy led. Any time parents (always untrained and of the helicopter type) didn't agree with a particular issue they would either go to one extreme and say that I was wrong in possibly expecting the boys to do (whatever) or the other extreme, that I shouldn't be making decisions for the boys. Example: Annual Planning. I'd work with the SPL to gather lots of appropriate material (school calendars, state park info, list of past 5 years of outings, council/district calendars, etc.) and ask all scouts to solicit ideas and then later spend an afternoon with the PLC planning out the calendar. If certain parents didn't like the results, they would blame me for "making the boys make bad decisions." If I made camping suggestions, they didn't like, I get the "you have to let the boys decide" feedback. It didn't help when my feedback to them was that as committee members, your job is not to critique our selections but to provide support to make them happen.

Okay, as a Scoutmaster I had the huge burden of supporting the OA. I actually had to yield 10 to 20 minutes to a youth at one of our meetings and get this - I actually had to labor away for almost 5 minutes counting ballots and writing down names, addresses, age, and rank for selected boys on the ballot. On top of it all, I had to do this not just once but once a year! Gosh, these organizations that just swallow up my precious time are really getting on my nerves!

It is my understanding that the original founders of the Order of the Arrow utilized some of the language of the Leni Lenape tribe (Delaware Indians). The order was never meant to be about "native americans" per se. The Order does use American Indian-styled traditions and ceremonies as well as Masonic symbolism and terminology - all to instill a feeling of shared community. Some just don't get it.

"We don't do OA" sounds like a very arrogant statement to me. "I don't do OA" - may be an appropriate response but why should one member of a troop decide for all?

I'm a long ways from Delaware but still ...

MONKS: Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. CROWD: A witch! A witch! MONKS: Pie Iesu domine... CROWD: A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! VILLAGER #1: We have found a witch. May we burn her? CROWD: Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her! BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch? VILLAGER #2: She looks like one. CROWD: Right! Yeah! Yeah! BEDEVERE: Bring her forward. WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch. BEDEVERE: Uh, but you are dressed as one. WITCH: They dressed me up like this. CROWD: Augh, we didn't! We didn't... WITCH: And this isn't my nose. It's a false one. BEDEVERE: Well? VILLAGER #1: Well, we did do the nose. BEDEVERE: The nose? VILLAGER #1: And the hat, but she is a witch! VILLAGER #2: Yeah! CROWD: We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah! BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this? VILLAGER #1: No! VILLAGER #2 and 3: No. No. VILLAGER #2: No. VILLAGER #1: No. VILLAGERS #2 and #3: No. VILLAGER #1: Yes. VILLAGER #2: Yes. VILLAGER #1: Yes. Yeah, a bit. VILLAGER #3: A bit. VILLAGERS #1 and #2: A bit. VILLAGER #3: A bit. VILLAGER #1: She has got a wart. BEDEVERE: What makes you think she is a witch? VILLAGER #3: Well, she turned me into a newt. BEDEVERE: A newt? VILLAGER #3: I got better. VILLAGER #2: Burn her anyway! VILLAGER #1: Burn! CROWD: Burn her! Burn! Burn her!... BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch. VILLAGER #1: Are there? VILLAGER #2: Ah? VILLAGER #1: What are they? CROWD: Tell us! Tell us!... BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches? VILLAGER #2: Burn! VILLAGER #1: Burn! CROWD: Burn! Burn them up! Burn!... BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches? VILLAGER #1: More witches! VILLAGER #3: Shh! VILLAGER #2: Wood! BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn? [pause] VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of... wood? BEDEVERE: Good! Heh heh. CROWD: Oh yeah. Oh. BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood? VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her. BEDEVERE: Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone? VILLAGER #1: Oh, yeah. RANDOM: Oh, yeah. True. Uhh... BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water? VILLAGER #1: No. No. VILLAGER #2: No, it floats! It floats! VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond! CROWD: The pond! Throw her into the pond! BEDEVERE: What also floats in water? VILLAGER #1: Bread! VILLAGER #2: Apples! VILLAGER #3: Uh, very small rocks! VILLAGER #1: Cider! VILLAGER #2: Uh, gra-- gravy! VILLAGER #1: Cherries! VILLAGER #2: Mud! VILLAGER #3: Churches! Churches! VILLAGER #2: Lead! Lead! ARTHUR: A duck! CROWD: Oooh. BEDEVERE: Exactly. So, logically... VILLAGER #1: If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood. BEDEVERE: And therefore? VILLAGER #2: A witch! VILLAGER #1: A witch! CROWD: A witch! A witch!... VILLAGER #4: Here is a duck. Use this duck. [quack quack quack] BEDEVERE: We shall use my largest scales. CROWD: Ohh! Ohh! Burn the witch! Burn the witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Ahh! Ahh... BEDEVERE: Right. Remove the supports! [whop] [clunk] [creak] CROWD: A witch! A witch! A witch! WITCH: It's a fair cop. VILLAGER #3: Burn her! CROWD: Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn! Burn!... BEDEVERE: Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?

I actually think it is better to have an understanding of child development than it is to have a youth experience in Scouting to make a good Scouter with direct contact with the boys (SM, SA, CM, DL, etc.). I participated as Cub Scout (Wolf to Lion) before moving to a different state and not continuing on with the program. However, I was lucky to have had the opportunity to camp every summer with three friends who were all Boy Scouts. I thought it was strange to clean dishes with three pans instead of two but hey, I went with the flow. As a Den leader five years and a Scoutmaster for seven years, I thought my strength was knowing how children develop, what was appropriate at what ages and a genuine interest in the boys. I had a love of the outdoors and took all the required and supplemental training the BSA had to offer but outdoor skills, while much better than the average adult, were not as good as my other skills. When you get right down to it, the first aid, camping, orienteering, pioneering and other basic skills one needs to know as a Scouter are really fairly basic. Could I perform an appendectomy with a spoon in the field? No. But, my skills were never found wanting in over 250 days of camping over that time. My patience sometimes was tried, 95% of the time by the adults, not the youth.

Yes, training videos could use more "attention" getters for the boys.

Yes, the BSA paid for capital improvements to A.P. Hill as part of the terms for use. The Army has supported ALL BSA jamborees since 1937 at a cost of approximately $8,000,0000 per Jambo. Those are my tax dollars at work as well as yours and some atheists and avowed homosexuals too. The BSA gets facilities. The Army gets publicity (mostly good) and training. However, many question why the USG should support a private organization that excludes individuals on the basis of religious views and sexuality. I see their point. Yes, the judicial branch has deemed the BSA a private organization (Dale vs. BSA). In spite of the fact that at the time about 400 Scouting units were sponsored by U.S. military bases and over 10,000 units by other governmental entities, primarily public schools. Also, the USG has sponsored bills in support of the BSA and even holds the charter for the BSA and the US President serves as President of the BSA during his term in office. So, thinking of the BSA as a public institution is not totally off base. The Congress has deemed it a "Unique American institution." There is some gray areas in the private vs. public debate. Will the Army provide support for the next Jambo? I'll take on anyone who wants to wager that they will not. The Army will definitely be involved (too many future soldiers will be attending!).(This message has been edited by acco40)

Yes I have children (3) and both of my sons and myself have sealed our membership in the OA (Brotherhood). Part of me wanted to attend my oldest son's Ordeal and to a lesser extend Brotherhood ceremony but I also wanted him to experience those events without me. As his Scoutmaster, and his father, I'm sure he was conflicted on occasion with having "dad" at most of his scouting events. When I had my Ordeal ceremony, he attended. He was very prideful in earning that accomplishment before I did (and that is where I got my real enjoyment). I suggest to all parents who have a curiosity about the OA. Sign-up and meet the requirements to be a candidate. That way you can experience the organization first hand. I'm quite perplexed about all of these rants about "adults running the OA" - they don't. The youth does. As the Chapter Chief states after the Ordeal Ceremony celebration - we have adults attend so that they can go get the donuts and pizza - not to far from the truth! As it has been stated earlier, don't confuse educating an adult on the benefits of allowing his son to experience an OA ceremony without a parent present as some how "banning parents" or in violation of anything. Douglas McArthur's mother followed him to West Point. She got an apartment close enough to campus to be able to see his window. Just because she was allowed to doesn't mean that she should have. Am I detecting a bit of jealousy in these comments? I'm interested in how many of the posters like SeattlePioneer and ThunderFox are OA members?

I think a good unit accepts the fact that some families are time rich and cash poor. Others are time poor and cash rich so to speak. They give families the option of how they want to participate in fundraising. At the Boy Scout level, the majority of the fundraising should go to the boys scout account IMO.

When I was a Scoutmaster, I required at least three adults on every outing. The reason was not for YPT specifically, but because if one adult had to leave - family emergency, illness, accident, etc. we would still have two adults on hand and would not have to cancel the outing. Isn't it implied that if the parents sign up their son to a troop or unit, that they trust the Scouters in that unit? If not, what's the point?

Are you meeting with boys who are all ready to go (know each other, have critical mass) or do you expect your first meeting to be an "This is what Venturing is all about and who would like to join" type meeting?

The BSA insisting that it is a private organization helped remove it from Fort AP Hill - and rightly so. The USG spent a lot of money on the National Jamboree which I think is wrong - for a private organization. Yes, the BSA wants a set place for Jambo. From my experience with Jambo, severely lowering or even banning "visitors" would be a great improvement!

The whole purpose of the OA From Wikipedia - Ceremonies were once considered to be secret, and consequently the OA has been viewed by some as a secret society. With the introduction of Youth Protection program guidelines in 1980s, the BSA has made clear that any concerned parent, guardian, or religious leader may view a video of the ceremonies, attend meetings, or read scripts upon request to a council, district, lodge, or chapter official to assure themselves that there is nothing objectionable. Such persons are asked to safeguard the details relating to ceremonies for the sake of the participants. The intent of the provision for parents and religious leaders to be allowed access to ceremonies is to ensure that there is no religious conflict or violations of youth protection guidelines occurring. Parents have long been discouraged in many Lodges from seizing the opportunity to use the provision for photo opportunities with their sons. Hazing or demeaning initiation pranks are also prohibited by the OA and the BSA. I contend that for a child, having a parent or parents attend, especially if they are not OA members, takes away from the experience for the youth. Therefore, I feel it a selfish act by the parents to push for attending. Having attended many, many OA ceremonies, I share this - I don't think I've ever witnessed a Scout progress to "seal" his membership in Brotherhood that had a non-OA parent attend his Ordeal ceremony. Does that indicate anything or is that just a weird coincidence?

I recently watch the History Channel program Vietnam in HD, and found it riveting. Good level of "history" without getting too deep or too shallow. How we treated those Veterans is sad. I think as a country we learned a few things from that experience.

Adult OA leaders should not be running the OA events, including the ceremony.

Why do parents feel the need to attend?

When I was a den leader and my wife Pack committee chair, we found it best if dens took care of their own expenses for materials and supplies (via den dues or what ever) and did not involve the Pack leadership. Pack event (Blue & Gold, Pinewood Derby, etc.) were taken care of by the Pack committee. My only beef was the Pack seemed more intent on "hiring" entertainment as opposed to putting in the time and effort to have the boys involved in the pack meetings. In my community we tended to be money rich and time poor so to speak.

Parents should be allowed to attend and strongly encouraged NOT to attend and given reasons why. Should parents of a high school football player be allowed to attend the half-time speech by the coach in the locker room? Should parents be allowed to attend every visit a student makes to his high school guidance counselor? Parents - get a clue, let go and let your charges grow up. Can't you see that your child will view the event much differently given the fact that your are there vs. are not there? Having the right and acting upon that right are two very different things. My oldest son went through his Ordeal the year before I did. On the eve of my Ordeal, I asked him a few questions about preparation and he just smiled and said he couldn't tell me about it! Truth be told, I knew that and wasn't really looking for a response but wanted to give my 14 year old son a reason to be one up on his dad/Scoutmaster. It gave him immense joy. I ask parents, why the compelling need to want to attend?(This message has been edited by acco40)