acco40

Has all the "badges" needed? Do you mean he has earned the proper amount and type of merit badges and has earned a Life rank? Of course, there is much more to earning the Eagle rank that MB's and earning a Life badge. Does the SM have authority over those other things? Yes. So technically, he can prevent a boy from earning the Eagle rank (in the troop that he is SM) at any age (but he may not). For those who don't believe some boys are mature enough at a young age to earn Eagle, please enlighten me about the "maturity" requirement. I'm not aware of any.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Yes. Check out http://www.keystonebsa.org/_FORMS/National%20Camping%20Award.pdf There are yearly and cumulative awards.

FOG: " "Where does bronze fall into this?" From my understanding of heraldry (nothing to do with GS or BSA awards), there are only two metals, silver and gold. Bronze does not fall into it at all.

Sounds like beavers to me. Bears would never act like that! (heh, heh)

Our council stresses the 11 skills of leadership (resources of the group, communications, needs and characteristics of the group, effective teaching, evaluating, counseling, sharing leadership, planning, controlling the group and setting the example). Under "sharing leadership" they mention five styles of leadership: telling, persuading, consulting, delegating and joining. One could equate telling to directing, consulting to coaching and of course delegating to delegating! Persuading is a form of selling. The leader makes a decision and then sells it to the group (a favorite SM technique). Joining is when the leader steps down so to speak and agrees to live by the groups decision. However, he does work to build a consensus.

OGE, unless I misread your references, one stated that first place was awarded silver (pre 1904), another that first place was awarded silver and second place bronze (pre 1908). Gold was first awarded in St. Louis (1904) and the now familiar Gold, Silver, Bronze order was not used until 1908. Thanks for the links!

It is all perspective. As SM, do I expect everything to be done by the boys? No. Is it my goal that everything (almost everything) is done by the boys? Yes, even the annual planning! I have "swatted" away ASMs (usually the untrained ones) and parents who want to help the boys set up their tents, put up the dining fly, unload or load the trailer, etc. At our PLC, when the boys come unprepared, I offer a few suggestions and then walk away to let them bang out the program details for the month (outing and theme are already in place). I then review it with them, complement them, or give a critique (in the most positive manner I can) where needed. Am I unapproachable? No. But I do know that many feel I ask too much of the boys. From the youth's perspective, it is very difficult for many of the younger youth to see the boy leadership struggle when they feel that the adults could do a better job. Maybe we could but the primary goal is not to see how clean the dishes can be, how quickly camp is set up or taken down. The goal is to teach the boys character, citizenship, and personal fitness. In many cases, that is best done by "getting out of the way."(This message has been edited by acco40)

I've noticed in our troop that the Sr. Patrol (SPL and ASPL only right now) try to get away without doing any real work (we're management!) and sometimes our QM will putter around in the trailer when it is time for dishes, get water, etc. As SM, I've tried to get the boys to realize the importance of a duty roster which is only half embraced by the youth right now. The older boys can become "work savy." If they know what they perceive as drudgery is going to be performed at a troop meeting, they'll find an excuse to miss it. My solution is to assign tents to individuals. If the parties are not present to clean and fold the tents, make sure the tents are waiting for them the next week! Try not to take the QM's actions as personal.

What's a Vigal member? I've heard of Vigel, I keep getting their stupid pop-up windows, but not Vigal. (Just kidding.) Knowing the rules and following them are two different beasts. From a 12 yr old's perspective, if he has earned his (whatever) and is proud, he wants to wear it. In our troop, the ASPL earned a spot on his JV football team and wears his football necklace (a silver chain with a big silver football helmet) with his uniform. Is that kosher, no. But why make a big fuss over it? Have you seen adults with patrol patches? A definite no-no. A boy without a patrol patch? Another no-no. I have two SM shirts, on one, I have my adult patrol patch in an attempt to "lead by example" that I wear on outings. The other SM shirt I consider my "formal" shirt that I wear to COHs, roundtables, etc. has no patrol patch. I try to inform the boys and adults of the uniform insignia guidelines, or rules or whatever one chooses to call them, and then try to lead by example. I am very careful to "pick my battles" carefully. Just like the "hat in church" debate (we have our formal COH in the church basement, should we wear our troop hat?), it is not worth the trouble of making it a big issue. (This message has been edited by acco40)

I know that this thread is really about the highest Girl Scout rank as compared to the highest Boy Scout rank and not a gold vs. silver debate. However, I did find this (see: http://www.colorsystem.com/projekte/engl/69here.htm) "The seven elementary virtues include the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity and the four cardinal virtues of justice, prudence, temperance and fortitude: black represents prudence, blue justice, green fortitude, purple or violet temperance, with gold or yellow representing faith, silver or white hope, and red charity. These seven virtues (three plus four) take the form of a crescendo, commencing with prudence and culminating in charity, the greatest virtue of the Christian faith." According to the above, silver (argent or white) "outranks" gold (yellow or or) just as hope "outranks" faith. Now this is string to sound like one of those "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" debates! Now I'm sure just as many other sources may cite the preference of gold outranking silver. The question was asked why silver was placed higher than gold (Eagle palms, military insignia, Cub Scout arrow points (to some), etc.). (This message has been edited by acco40)

Not a threat in my book. Check out: http://www.bpscouts.ca/world_associations.htm You may notice (if you venture there) that on the World Organizaton of the Scout Movement (WOSM, which BSA is a member) states that, "Scouting is Education for Life, a Movement for Youth, International, Open to All, Fun with a Purpose, a Challenge for Adults, Voluntary, Non-Political, Non-Governmental."

Check out:http://www.bsaswmc.org/2003CommrCollege.htm I plan on going to Commissioner's College and plan to register on-line and follow-up with payment. Maybe wrt privacy issues, youth vs. adult comes into play.

I've seen SMs wear a tie (BSA issued of course) with their field uniform. I'm assuming "non-professional" scouters may do that. It did look sharp.

Had our troop COH last night. My son asked if he should wear his OA sash or MB sash. I told him it was his choice but since he was to receive five MBs (the COH after summer camp where he earned three) that I would wear the MB sash if I was in his shoes. Well, mom said, "Let him wear both." Another peer of his in the troop wears his OA sash (the only other OA member in the troop besides my son) on the right shoulder and the MB sash hung on the belt. I knew that is what my son wanted to do, too. Well if mom says yes and dad says no, guess who he takes direction from? It may be incorrect from a uniform insignia guide, not what dad wanted, not what the SM wanted (me again) but the world sometimes has no higher authority than a loving mother who is proud of her son. The rest of the world be damned! (Yes, for those who may not know me well, while true, this was written in a very humerous tone.) P.S. Pants are to be worn at all BSA functions. Something I had trouble with when a bunch of the boys got a bug to sit around the campfire on the last night of summer camp (well past lights out and quiet time) in their boxers. They did have the lights out, they were quiet and it was warm. I didn't join them, but had to chuckle.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Nice post FOG but I'm not sure of the source. Believing everything that is posted on the www is frought with risk (i.e. Bob Hope is dead). While I do not doubt the basic "facts" as presented in the article, I've been told by many West Point grads that when they teach heraldry at the academy, they emphasize the historic basis of why silver is considered of more value (symbolizes purity, honor, truth, etc.). Golds symbolic value has traditionally been wealth. Now, why do district epaulets come in silver and national in gold? Simple, becasue the district volunteers are worth more!

Nice post FOG but I'm not sure of the source. Believing everything that is posted on the www is frought with risk (i.e. Bob Hope is dead). While I do not doubt the basic "facts" as presented in the article, I've been told by many West Point grads that when they teach heraldry at the academy, they emphasize the historic basis of why silver is considered of more value (symbolizes purity, honor, truth, etc.). Golds symbolic value has traditionally been wealth.

Reminds me of the dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac. He stayed up all night long wondering if there really was a dog.

Do you know the difference between a Missouri boot and a Texas boot? With a Missouri boot, the BS is on the outside.

Recently camped at a Michigan State park. The "group campsite" is now open only to Scouts (boy & girl). The comment I got was that "too many church groups have trashed the place." Going to Gettysburg in a month. The campsite we are staying on the battlefield itself, an area not available to the general public. Now some bad news. I was talking to a park Ranger who worked on Isle Royale (National Park in Michigan). It is a pristine area. However, the ranger commented that the boy scouts who visited were some of the messiest, least respectful (to the environment) of the visitors. Let's all try to police ourselves better! We do not want to lose the "privileges" that some grant us.

Somewhat related ... After coming home from a very wet camping trip my wife and boys set up the tents and ground cloth outside in my backyard on the next sunny day (I was at work) to dry. The ground cloth we use is clear plastic sheeting. It only took about one hour on the grass and the sun shone through the clear plastic "cooking" the grass underneath (greenhouse effect). When I got home, I had two 10' x 10' brown patches in my yard. Live and learn.

The solution: have the new scout teach swimming (by demonstrating) to the new scouts next year. Wait, he can't? By gosh, how did that happen? By doing the above, it gets the message across to both junior and mom that the scout really needs to master a skill to get signed off.

Have the committee vote on a recommendation that ... Let the boys determine if they follow that recommendation. Then have the boys live with their decision. It is that simple. Too many troops (parents) pay their sons dues either annually, quarterly, or semi-annually. The boys should pay weekly dues out of their own income source.

Interesting take Adviser. But if you ask some collegiate "cheaters" why they did it, they tend to rationalize their behavior (i.e. everyone else does it, I'm not hurting anyone, yadda yadda yadda). Do they really think that what they are doing is immoral? Maybe yes, maybe no.

"and finally to crave a roast or ham" - Now that is a requirement that I am sure all the boys in my troop could immediately pass with flying colors!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Mark, I believe you missed my point. By definition, you are correct, what is right is "moral" and what is wrong is "immoral", they are absolutes and do not change. The $64 question is who determines what is right and wrong. That is a perception issue and perceptions do change. When you write statements like, "But even when society viewed out of wedlock sex as acceptable, it wasn't.", it begs the question, "acceptable by whom?" To you and I, it may not be acceptable then, now or ever. To a lesbian who wants to have a child and is not permitted to marry, it may be acceptable in her eyes. Our society has become very polarized. I wish individuals would issue statements like, "I believe that out of wedlock sex is wrong." To flatly state personal views as absolutes rubs me the wrong way.