acco40

Most adults who are aware of the Ordeal and the ideals of the OA readily admit that no hazing exists. But in the eyes of the youth, hazing, like beauty, is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. We just had four youth finish their Ordeal weekend. They experienced typical Ordeal weekend "stuff." I won't get into details but there is a reason they call it an Ordeal. One of the boys really came away from it with the wrong understanding of what the Ordeal represents. He viewed it as just a very bad comping outing and the "things" that go on as hazing. Forget that all of his clan, along with his Elangomat (sp?) experienced the same things, in his eyes it was hazing. The older OA member referenced in the earlier post may just be stating what he feels is true, not trying to scare or embellish. I don't know. For me, to really understand your Ordeal, seek to seal your membership status in the OA with brotherhood.

Cub Scouts ranks are not like Boy Scouts. One does not have to "earn" Wolf to become a Bear. When I was involved in CS, the program was age and grade based. If a boy does not "age" or advance in grade he does not go on the the next level, regardless of awards or previous rank earned. It is really quite simple from a rules perspective. Now, do DEs, DLs, etc. have the power to change those rules? I didn't think so but that is not my area of expertise.

My family is heavily involved in both programs (BSA & GSUSA). Both programs advertise that some of their goals (aims) are to build character, strong (GSUSA) or traditional (BSA) values, service, citizenship, and leadership skills. Heck, it is not surprising that a Baden-Powell had hands in the beginning of both. I believe that GSUSA emphasizes the need for girls and young women to feel self-worth. Most boys of that age already have an over inflated ego of self-worth! The GSUSA does not have the pressures, either by members or dollars, that the LDS church or Catholic Church exerts on the BSA, so their stance on religious and sexual matters reflects that. Their structure is very different than the BSA (they don't have charter organizations like the BSA). I feel both are great programs who rely heavily on volunteer leaders. It is really these leaders who make or break the program.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Children of this age have excuses for everything. Some they are just trying to use to buffalo adults and others they really believe in. Nothing is ever thier fault. It may be race, feelings of "you don't like me", views of unfairness and a myriad of other things. I would not try to emphasize it too much. After an outing, I usually privately ask a number of Scouts, sometimes all of them, if they feel they pulled their share, didn't pull their share or did more than their share of tasks. Invariably, they feel they did more than their share of tasks. For example, when picking up the troop trailer for our last outing, one of the patrol coolers and its contents from the previous outing was found in the trailer along with quite a stench. When all of the patrol was together I reiterated that the trailer is not to be used as a wharehouse for the coolers and that perishable foods should never be left in the cooler after an outing. I mentioned no names but every boy had some excuse they wanted to tell me about why is wasn't their fault. I cut them off at the pass. I was not interested on why or who made it happen, just not to let it happen again. It is a hard concept to grasp, group responsibility. I still have adults who find it hard to grasp. As for quitting smoking - according to my brother it is extremely easy. In fact, it is so easy he has done it numerous times!

All of the Cub Packs that I have been affiliated with charged at registration for the remainder of the charter year (the vast majority of units rechartering in the January-March time frame) plus the next full year. So the cost was $10 plus a pro-rated $10 (long ago $7.00 plus a pro-rated $7.00). Boy's Life magazine was highly encouraged but not mandated. When I was a den leader, our pack usually gave out promotional items we either received "free" from the council or got very cheaply - pencils, zipper pulls, etc. What the boys liked and enjoyed were the fact that while their parents dealt with "grown-up stuff" (registration, fees, forms, etc.) I and either some other adults or more preferably older boys (Den Chiefs or other Boy Scouts) would teach the boys games, sing alongs or demonstrate a camp site set up. It doesn't have to cost much. One year, we simply brought along some ping-pong balls put four prospective recruits to a table, (far far away from parents!) put a ball in the middle of the table and the first boy to blow the ball off the opposite side of the table won! They loved it. That is what the boys want - attention and fun, not material items! In today's society, most get all the material possessions they want! They crave attention. Now it is hard for the national council to send out "attention" packages to all of the Cub units so they go with other promotional items.

Can't argue with your logic. If wearing both I assume the arrowhead goes right below the oosition patch with the trained strip below the arrowhead. Correct? UPDATE: Found on the netcommish web site a gif file that showed the left arm (sleeve) with the position patch, then trained strip below that and then the arrowhead below that. The sequence being top to bottom in the order earned (which goes easy on the person sewing on the patches!).(This message has been edited by acco40)

From a proper uniforming perspective ... I believe the Commissioner's Arrowhead award should be worn right below his position patch (Unit Commissioner for example.). The "trained" patch is also worn in the same way. My question, if one wears (and earned) the arrowhead award, I assume one does not wear the trained strip anymore. Is that correct? One of the requirements for earning the arrowhead award is to be trained so wearing both would be redundant. Can anyone cite a BSA reference on how to wear the Arrowhead award? Thanks.

I'm sure others have real numbers but your 27.4% of trained leaders is not far below the "average" from what I am told; about 34%.

CC, Contrary to popular belief, the Committe, NOT THE SCOUTMASTER, is tasked with handling discipline issues within the troop.

It should not be an either - or situation. Why not have both involved? And FScouter, I've got news for you, many states have implemented and are considering granting grandparents certain rights with respect to their grandchildren. So, in some states grandparents do have rights not granted to them by their grandchildrens parents (who are usually not their offspring). Not that I necessarily agree with it, but ... Example: If an unmarried child has resided with grandparents or great-grandparents for a period of 12 months or more and is subsequently removed from the home by the parents, the grandparents or great-grandparents may petition the court for partial custody or visitation or both. The best interests of the child will be considered and these rights will only be granted if the granting of the rights will not interfere with the parent-child relationship. (This message has been edited by acco40)

It is fairly easy to generate a tax ID number (go to IRS web site). Our troop has one. It is different than that of the CO. But remember, the troop is NOT a legal identity in and of itself. We have a non-interest bearing account so that we don't have to file any tax forms. As for minimum requirements to open an account - for most banks, it is simply money. The more you have, the fewer "extra" requirements you need to meet!(This message has been edited by acco40)

In today's paper (Detroit Free Press) there was a "review" of the movie. It mentioned a "bunny talk" kid friendly less violent version. See below: 'Passion of the Christ' arrives Per instructions of Mel Gibson's Icon Productions, Fox did not supply reviewers with advance copies of "The Passion of the Christ" ($29.98), but we are assured this is the same version seen in theaters, available either letter-boxed or in full screen, with no extras. However, Anchor Bay sent along "The Animated Passion" (THREE STARS out of four stars, $14.98), a kid-friendly telling (i.e. fairly bloodless) of the New Testament story of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth. And, (I know I'll get pummelled for this) Another kind of 'Passion' Meanwhile, Paramount has been so kind as to collect three "South Park" episodes under the title "The Passion of the Jew" (THREE STARS out of four stars, $19.99) after last season's show in which Cartman sees Gibson's movie and has even more ammunition with which to torture a Jewish friend. A crazed cartoon Gibson makes a guest appearance and has his wallet stolen. (This message has been edited by acco40)

I didn't know that the BSA had a program to mentor boys. I always thought that the BSA goals were character development, citizenship training and mental and physical fitness.

In the distant past when I was a boy (60's) den leaders (or more correctly den mothers) were 100% female. Most dens met after school and fathers (most) worked and mothers (most) stayed home. I don't want to get into a discussion if that was good or bad, right or wrong but it was the norm at the time. Also, the BSA stipulated that Cubmaster had to be male. At the same time, Scoutmasters had to be male. No ifs ands or buts. I don't think anyone inquired about the sexuality of the leaders at that time . As the years progressed, the BSA now allows male den leaders and female Cubmasters and Scoutmasters. Some perceptions die hard. One of the methods of Scouting is adult association (not MALE adult association). Any adult can fit that bill (oops, only those who believe in God(s) and are not avowed homosexuals!). Program is what sells to the intelligent consumer. Yes, I know of parents who stay clear of troop with female scoutmasters but I don't know of any who stay clear of packs with predominantly female leadership. My suggestion to you when a Neanderthal approaches you about the lack of male leadership is to look him straight in the eye, smile and state, "Yes, I completely agree. What leadership position would you like to take on so that we can move forward in meeting your goal?" That usually makes them back down fairly quick!

In my next of the woods, the Detroit Science Center (plug!) put on some awesome MB programs at their facility. They utilized high school teachers who not only know the subject matter but are very familiar with the Scouting program (the vast majority are Scouters). They had excellent programs for Chemistry, Astronomy, and Weather. If the summer camp program rates a 4 (on a scale of 1 to 10) I would rate the Detroit Science Center program as a 10 plus! They were very explicit about "homework" and coming to the classes prepared. No merit badge mill. Bottom line, teachers, especially teachers that know the Scouting program, can be excellent MBCs. My oldest sons HS Band Director (an Eagle Scout), is a MBC.

OneHour, my committee chairman tends to agree with scoutldr, that is look at what the troop needs and if some is left over, it can go to Scout accounts. I tend to disagree with that approach myself to a degree. If the troop has a fundraiser and all participate no problem. But what happens if 15% participate and the vast majority do not? In that case, I say put the vast majority of the money in individual Scout accounts (obviously to the Scouts who raised the money). For popcorn, this is what we are planning to do this year. All money raised by individual sales would go to the individuals Scout Account. All Scouts will be expected to contribute TBD dollars to the troop OR participate a minimum amount of time working show and sell (store sales). That way, the boys (or more likely his parents) can decide to participate in the store sales (high time cost, low dollar cost) or open their wallets (high dollar cost, low time cost). I firmly believe we should allow families the option of fundraising or contributing directly. Granted, the council does not benefit from direct donations to the troop (but we usually are quite generous when it comes to FOS) and the boys may not get the "fund raising experience" but ...

I've never been to the national jamboree yet I proudly (and correctly) wear my Jamboree patch. Remember, if you were or are registered to attend, you may wear the patch. That is the reason you may see many individuals wearing the 2005 Jambo patch on their uniform now even though none have attended the 2005 Jamboree.

I have a Life Scout who wants to throw worms into the lake to benefit a SCHOOL of (non-BSA) fish. Because I don't want to try and interpret the intent of the authors, I okay the Scouts project. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Let's see now, isn't Scouts Canada a private organization and if you don't like yit ou can leave? Where have I heard that argument before? Isn't making uniforms "mandatory" in the BSA a no no? It is a method of Scouting, not an aim. So why the big fuss when Scouts Canada does the same thing? I've attended Scout camps in Canada with our troop in the past. I don't think having co-ed membership has hurt their program at all. They do have the problem of having to have a female leader at all unit functions when female Scouts are present. They seemed to be more like Venture crews. I was not aware of any homosexual presence, but then again I didn't ask. I wish them well.

I agree with your assessment Eamonn but I might add that the only one who really has to pass judgement is the MB counselor. For example, when my older son was a den chief, he camped in a tent, at a BSA council camp with the Webelos den he was assigned to during a Webelos outing. His Scoutmaster at the time stated that his time tent camping didn't "count" (for OA, camping MB, XX nights of camping awards, etc.) because he didn't camp with Boy Scouts. Forgetting the fact that he had spent his summer camp in the exact same location, neither he nor I complained. Even though I thought the SM was mistaken, why sweat the small stuff?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Sorry but the anal retentive engineer in me has to state that the increase would be infinite percent if no units rechartered via the internet and only one did this year. A 100% increase would occur if one rechartered last year and two rechartered this year. As for signatures, obviously there are none. It is my understanding that each unit has a special unique access code to be used for rechartering, often contained in the rechartering material.

For what it is worth, I talked to locals in the Cimarron area and most are against the removal of the natural gas in the area. I don't pretend to understand the geoplogy/physics involved but the area has vast, vast coal reserves that have not been mined to date due to cost. Removal of the natural gas, they told me, would tend to devalue the "quality" and thus the price of the existing coal in the area. Any geologists care to explain that better?

Our youth Arrowmen deride the "clean" sash and see it as a sign of an inactive member. They delight in deriding sash "condoms." Most of the adult members either go with the two sash method (one ceremonial, one for service) or perform service sans the sash or wash it.

Just returnd from Philmont and against the wishes of the staff who continuously warn us "out of control volunteers" not to quote what they hear as gospel at Philmont .... A question and answer session was held as professionals from the national council were cordial enough to take questions from the volunteers at the PTC that week. One question concerning uniforms came up. Paraphrasing, "Why do so many official BSA publications depict Scouts and Scouters incorrectly wearing the various BSA uniforms? For example, wearing the shirt with the top button buttoned up." At first the professional tried to answer the question by explaining when to wear the field uniform and when to wear the activity uniform. After a clarification was made, he finally answered simply that mistakes are made. Another professional from the national council went on to share a story. The artist who has been commissioned to paint various BSA posters (I forgot his name and no, it is not Norman Rockwell Jr.) is currently commissioned to show an Eagle Court of Honor scene. His painting displayed an Eagle Scout wearing his OA sash around his chest and he has his merit badge neatly folded over his belt. Upon review, the artist was told that 1) an OA sash should not be worn at a Eagle COH (not an OA event) and 2) a MB sash should never be worn folded over one's belt. The artist stated that he had seen just that at the many Eagle COHs he observed. Too bad was the response. The artist is now in the process of "editing" his painting to include only the MB sash worn properly. National also suggested that the artist make sure that the MBs shown on the sash be such that they qualify the Scout for the Eagle rank. I was glad to hear the the BSA wanted to "get it right." On a different note, the question of what training is required of a Scoutmaster to take the Socuts on an outing was asked. The correct answer - none. So, while a Cub Scout leader (BALOO), Webelos Leader (OWL or equivalent), and Venture leader must have specific training before taking Scouts on an outing, a Scoutmaster needs none. It was pointed out that yes, while one of the adults needs youth protection training, it does not necessarily have to be the SM or SAs. Interesting!

I agree with the Bear. I've known UCs who were "commissioned" before they had any real unit service experience. They all struggled by their own admission. Ideally, a UC is an experienced Scouter who can share, if asked, their wealth of knowledge to the unit they serve. I know it is not PC to state, but a UC is a "spy" for the district. The UC reports to the district certain metrics about a unit. They do this not to be critical but to make sure a unit thrives. They are first and foremost a friend of the unit they serve. Hopefully, their vast experience can be tapped by the unit to help them with suggestions, conflict resolution, and much more. Why become a UC? To help the BSA become the premier youth organization in the world. The same reason to serve in the BSA in any other volunteer position.(This message has been edited by acco40)