Eagle94-A1

If we become Family Scouts, I am gone, and i believe a large number of traditionalists with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to keep the program alive will as well. It will no longer the progran we signed up for. Worse I think youth will lose interest fast. I was in a "family friendly " troop. The youth had been complaining about the interference for some time. When my family had enough and left, that was the wakeup call for them. That wasvwhen the COR said no more. And a lot of youth who were on the verge of leaving decided to stay.

I am hoping that since we will be removing program for the 18-20 years olds, we will be able to use them once again for YP purposes. After all if everyone over 18 is an adult , and not a mix of adults and "adult participants" there would be some consistency. But if they do not change the YP standards to allow for 18-20 years olds to be a 2nd registered adult, AND Sea Scouting, the OA, Exploring, and Venturing are no longer for them, then I see us losing a bunch of the best and brightest. After I turned 18, Sea Scouts and the OA kept me interested. And it complemented my responsibilities as adult Scouter in my troop.

Even though our camp is still on, at the moment, there are a lot of concerns. Troop will be putting on their own locally. At the moment it is patrol camping, but push comes to shove, it will turn into a day camp. Some folks call this 'Be Prepared," and others will say "Semper Gumby."

Sorry about the misunderstanding, Fred. After what happened in the last troop I was in, family camping is a very sore subject.

Sadly the quality of council rise and fall with the leadership of the SE. I have seen great SEs, and mediocre SEs, and unfortunately poor SEs who should be behind bars for some of the shenanigans they were doing (some have been caught, but not all). Lately I am seeing more and more of the latter 2 categories. I wish that instead of focusing on money, they would focus on service. I wish they would provide a quality, challenging summer camp programs instead of summer school where MBs are given away. I wish national would focus more on the number of camp outs a unit does rather than how many are earning advancement

I am not a fan of family camping at all a the Scouts BSA level. I have seen too many problems result from adults interfering. Last time a family camp out was announced in advance by a troop I was in, I skipped it. More importantly my boys are against it. They have seen the problems first hand because their old troop became "family friendly." The last 18 months they were in the troop, every single camp out turned into a family camp out, most without advance notice. Patrol Camping, or troops separated by BP's 300 feet rule, is the way to go.

I know it is hard, and I am glad I did not make a career out of of being a professional. Locally we have lost a lot of key district level volunteers and big FOS donors because of BSA's membership changes over the past 8 years. Our DEs are stretched thin, and service is not like it use to be. Our volunteers and families do not see any benefit for their FOS pledges, and that is down. Add in National's last minute fee increases and some families that still do FOS had to renege on their pledges to pay for the fee increases. I was one of them. Which in turn further hurts local council support. And the negative publicity is not helping. These lawsuits are coming from 30-60 years ago, and the perpetrators are dead. Mandatory reporter laws were non existent, and what the parents wanted prevailed. So if a parent didn't want it reported to authorities, it wasn't. But we are now getting the blame. The 18% was in reference to the LDS Church. I know the percentage is much higher compared to 8 years ago.

I can see Career Interest Exploring under the BSA umbrella. It was part of the BSA until 1998 when a lawsuit forced BSA to put it under LFL. The memberhsip policy that forced the split is no longer in effect. But LFL and STEM Scouts were just ways to increase membership numbers. I have never seen a successful LFL program, and I had 4 in my district when I was a DE, nor a STEM Scout group.

I see increases coming at both the National and Council levels. National is losing members left and right. and with 18% of the membership gone, that is a huge amount of income that national no longer has. Then I am seeing more and more councils implementing council service fees. I see this happening with my council. Depending upon how much of a fee they charge, will factor into the members the lose. I can tell you family FOS is down in my district because the volunteers are not seeing any benefit. DE is not visible, let alone supporting the volunteers who do step up to the plate to help. Service center has the habit of losing records and applications

Sadly I think National is more about getting Eagle than anything. National has modified the Tenderfoot through First Class Rank requirements so that you can still get FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR, even if skills are not properly learned. Also they have been so focused on Eagle, they not only promote the "One and Done" mentality via training, but also have allowed folks to receive Eagle who should not have. I met a Scout whose Eagle BOR discovered major issues with his advancement, and followed BSA policy to create a plan that would rectify the situation. When appealed to the council, the Council upheld the district's decision. When appealed to National, they noted there were issues with the Scouts advancement, but gave it to him anyway. Sadly it is not only national, but a lot of volunteers who are not interested in the outdoors, but only in Eagle. Let's face it, the attitude of a unit's Scouters does influence the youth. If the adults have the attitude that they want a challenging, youth-led program with an emphasis on the outdoors, the youth will pick up on that. If a unit's Scouters are only worried about Eagle, the Scouts are going to pick up on that. What I find interesting is that units that focus on Eagle do not have great attendance and/or retention. People will stick around until they get Eagle, then leave or they drop out for a while, then come back at the last minute to hurry up and get Eagle before turning 18. Then they leave. Whereas units that focus on youth led and the outdoors will keep Scouts even after they earn Eagle and/or age out. My oldest son is 16, needs 2 signatures and a BOR and he is Eagle. His plans after Eagle: stick around and have fun until he leaves for college. The Improved Scouting Program (ISP) was before my time, but not before my brothers. That was when the BSA did not have mandatory swimming, cooking, and camping requirements. It was possible to be an Eagle Scout never knowing how to swim, never cooking a meal, and never going camping. When my family moved from the city to the suburbs, they went from an established, outdoor oriented troop with experienced Scouters in the city, to a new troop with inexperienced Scouters using the ISP format in the suburbs. They quickly lost interest and left. I don't have the stats in front of me, but the BSA experienced such a loss in membership that professionals accepted "early retirement," and William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt had to come out of retirement to re-implement an outdoor program. The membership losses due to the ISP are less than today's membership losses. I hope the powers that be remember that dismal failure after this COVID-19 mess, and resist continueing these alternative requirements. Sadly I think in the quest to have more Eagles, they will not put this genie in the bottle, and numbers will continue their downward spiral. Agreed, and usually from someone who has no experience int he program as a youth.

Yes, it would be nice if there was some transparency with the BSA. Who made the "InstaPalm" decision when 94% of those polled were either against (18%) or strongly against (76%) enacting that policy? What were the poll results of the membership policy change? And who decided on the most inconvenient time for the poll, i.e. announcing it right before a National Scout Jambore and shutting down polling about a week after the NSJ? And whose idea was it to mortgage Philmont without telling the Philmont committee about it? Why do 18 to 20 year old ASMs and MBCs no longer count towards Youth Protection? Why can 2 registered females over 21 work with boys by themselves, but 2 registered males over 21 cannot work with girls by themselves? Why the double standard? And those are the ones within the past 5 years that I can think of.

SO all a Scout needs to do is attend class and he gets a MB? SIGN MY HOODLUMS UP! (sarcasm off) I so wish "Master the skills" of day and before, and the " The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO, not what he has done" attitude prior to 2010 were still the norm, and not 'one and done." The Summit's "attend class, get a badge" attitude is why my old troop had major issues on a canoe trip. We had a bunch of Scouts who "earned" Canoeing in 2 one hour sessions, and goofed off the rest of the week.

MAKE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS ON REGISTRATION INCREASES NOW INSTEAD OF WAITING UNTIL AUGUST, OR WORSE STILL, LATE OCTOBER!

And that is what I am afraid of. I've ran into a SM, who doesn't understand why camping is such a big deal. He earned Eagle in the 1970s, and his troop rarely camped. When that troop does camp, it is usually at MB Weekends and universities. While they do summer camp, not everyone goes. The Eagle Scout who never attended summer camp was one of his. Although I am no longer in the old troop, I still maintain friendships with them, including Gunship. He's slowly mellowing. But I understand more about him. Not only is he prior military, but his SM growing up was the exact same way. I was fortunate. My SM growing up was old school, letting the youth do their thing. He intervened when needed. In my 7 years as a Boy Scout, outside of SMCs and my time on the PLC, only twice did he really intervene with me. First time was when I modeled the inappropriate behavior of my old PL in my previous troop. Had a long talk about leadership, motivating folks, and working with folks that I remember to this day. The second time was a subtle reminder I'm turning 18 in a few months, and it would be a pity if I didn't finish what I started, especially since I spent the past 4+ years as a Life Scout and folks that I have helped as new Scouts earned their Eagle before me. Otherwise he let us handle things. I remember him letting the SPL, ASPL, and older Scouts work with me when I became PL, and first became ASPL.Then I remember him allowing me to work with the younger Scouts. So yes, Scouts do use their own experiences when they work with youth in the troop. And I am worried that we are slowly seeing the demise of traditional Scouting. DN Robbin's post concerns me because he doesn't see the loss us old fogeys are talking about because he has not experienced it. I am glad I found a troop with the same mentality my troop growing up had. My older two are a lot happier. Youngest is having a good time. And part of that is the SM and primary ASM were both Scouts themselves, in youthled troops.

With a warhammer to the head after rolling a 20 to hit and rollng an 8 for damage. Seriously though, the the only way I have seen this work is for 2 Adults to ride herd on the interfering adults and constantly making sure they do not cause trouble. Then as their Scout matures, they get it. Problem is the following: 1) You need 2 adults to maintain eternal vigilance over the interfering adults 2) You gotta make rules AND ENFORCE THEM. You cannot compromise as it give the interfering parents hope. 3) It takes a long time, several months at a minimum, sadly several years, to make the adults realize that failure is learning. 4) Sometimes people just won't get it.

Thanks for the info. So you became a Tiger Cub in 1995, and joined Boy Scouts in 2000. So you are part of the OPERATION FIRST CLASS aka FIRST CLASS, FIRST YEAR generation of Scouts with aged-based patrols, and heavy adult involvement. Some of us have been a round a little longer and remember when Traditional Patrols, aka mixed aged patrols were the norm, and they patrols were capable of operating independently from each other to the point they could camp, hike, etc on their own without adults because your older Scouts were fully capable of taking care of themselves and the younger Scouts in their Patrols. New Scout Patrols only existed with LDS troops and their 11 Year Old Scouts, and you very rarely saw them because they could not camp much. Do you remember how much influence you had on the younger Scouts in your troop when you were an 18-20 year old ASM? Do you remember how they hung on every word you said? Do you remember some adults getting frustrated because they would ask the Scout a few questions to get them thinking on the task at hand, and the Scout would ignore them, but then you come over and ask the same questions, and they Scouts would get it? I sure do. I remember all the young ASMs I've worked with through the years. They had a lot more influence and could make a bigger impact than some of us old fogeys. But now they have no incentive to stick around. I have had several awesome Scouts leave once they turned 18 because they feel that BSA no longer respect them and their abilities because they are under 21. If they cannot serve as a full-fledged adult, why should they stick around? If they cannot towards YP, the troop doesnt't need them. If they need 2 adults over 21 attending their MB sessions, why bother? On a side note, I feel like BSA has been spiraling downward since they implemented OPERATION FIRST CLASS back in 1989. They made it easier to advance, moving from a "Master the Skills" mentality of the 1979 and earlier handbooks, and "The Badge represents what the Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done" of the current 'One and Done" mentality found in today's Guide to Advancement. And don't get me started on the changes to OA membership over the years.

@DNRobbin, What is your history with Scouting? Were you involved as a youth in Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, Cub Scouts, Exploring, Varsity Scouts or Venturing? Also how long have you been involved in Scouting? I ask because that will give me some background on you to help understand your position. A lot of us oldtimers have some issues with the current Youth Protection Guidelines is that it has slowly eroded the old Scouting philosophy of "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" (sic) From 1910 to 2012 patrols could camp on their own without adults present. In fact at one time to earn First Class you and a buddy or patrol had to do a trek on your own without adults present. And until October 1, 2018, patrols could still do day activities, like patrol food shopping, hikes, and meetings, without adults present. Merit badge counseling could be done with a buddy or a parent, so they were much easier to organize. Now I got to have a 2nd registered Scouter over 21 when I have classes. And I feel sorry for the 18-20 year old Scouters. They no longer count for Youth Protection purposes. At least National relented to all the pressure from troops going to summer camp and HA bases to delay that rule from February 1, 2018 to October 1, 2018. I know my troop would not be going to summer camp when I was 19 and 20 because I was the 2nd adult able to go due to my summer schedule. But I really feel sorry for the 18-20 year old MBCs because they need to find 2 Scouters over 21 since they no longer count towards Youth Protection. There would have been no way I could work with Scouts on Lifesaving MB when I was a 19 and 20 year old YMCA Lifeguard instructor under the current rules. Then you got some of absurd rules that is pure CYA on National's part. According to current YP rules, my nephews could not stay overnight at my house because I would need a 2nd registered adult over 21, but my boys could stay at my sister's house sine her and her husband are not registered with the BSA. Don't get me started on the Department of Labor laws that BSA has decided to implement. I had a bunch of Bears laughing at me when I told them BSA no longer allows them to use their little red wagons to help with a service project. They thought I was joking. A lot of us oldtimers see these rules eroding responsibility from our youth and young Scouters. It is as if we no longer trust them. And Scouts do react differently when adults are around. Instead of thinking for themselves and trying to solve their own problems, they constantly look to adults to give them hints, or worse, tell them what to do. And then you got some adults who intervene so much, the Scouts decide to shut down, and wait for the adult to tell them what to do. I remember one Scout getting upset when and adult got on his case for "playing with fire" when he was cooking his dinner on a spit. From that point until he left the troop, on trips he always used a camp stove to cook instead of trying other methods of cooking. And don't get me wrong, I understand how important Youth Protection. I have had to deal with several YP issues over the years. But none of the latest YP rules would have prevented them.

Yeah the look on some parents when my middle son was a Bear working on Whittling Chip saying "blood circle" was priceless. A few laughed because they hadn't heard that term in ages. I prefer the term "Staying out of melee range." while rolling my D20

I can tell you that my former hospital has instituted furloughs and mandatory days off for those not furloughed. And many hospitals in my council have implemented similar policies.

I would follow our motto "Be Prepared."

I admit I am dense at times. My Brotherhood sash was "used and abused." Dirt stained and some of the embroidery was coming undone. At the fall fellowship, which is when we announce the Vigil candidates, all my buddies kept bugging me with "you need a new sash." I finally broke down to buy one only to be told I would have to wait until the next day so that they would have enough for that nite's Brotherhood Ceremony. Trading post would be open after Lodge Meeting. Long story short, I got pulled up for Vigil. Still got harrassed by my friends for not catching on.

I wonder how much they will be charging to watch?

Don't get me started on my time with national supply. Suffice to say, I worked with folks with no field experience. They banged their heads when merchandise woulkd not sell, despite me saying it's a bad idea. OA is a very sore subject for me. It was the program that kept me involved in Scouting after earning Eagle. I served as a youth office and CA in my home lodge, and served in various capacities in several other lodges. It fell from a proud, hard to get into Honor Camper Society, to anyone can get into it organization. My two older sons have both been elected into the OA, the oldest was placed on the ballot by the chapter chief against his wishes. Neither one is interested because the OA no longer means anything as everyone seems to get elected nowadays. Being elected seems as if it is a formality.

Having worked in the medical field, I have heard some stories of people not telling 100% of the truth to their providers. When I went through physical therapy a few years best I did my darndest to be compliant with his instructions for exercise at home. It was challenging and initially I was not meeting his goals. But I was honest with him and told him I was actually doing. He admitted that since most patients do not follow instructions, he always add to the regime so that the patient can make progress to recovery. I was able to get out of rehab in 5.5 months following his instructions. I saw one of my fellow patients with the milder problem I had still in rehab a year after starting because he would not do the exercises at home, despite saying he was. The procedure he had was the one I was suppose to have, and the recovering should have been shorter than the 5.5 months I went through.

And that is a mistake IMHO. You need to have a basic understanding of the program in order to promote the program. Plus the more experience you have, the better able to help your struggling units if you do not have enough/any commissioners. If you don't meet the minimum training requested of Volunteers, how can you help them? Grant you I was not the normal DE. I already had 5 years as a ASM, and 2 years as a Chapter Adviser and Explorer Post Associate Adviser. While the Scouters had some reservations about me initially, but when they saw me willing to get down and dirty with them at an Ordeal ( my old lodge's motto was a clean sash is the sign of a lazy Arrowman ) that got their respect and trust. And while I did have to go through Cub Scout Basic Leader Training (day long course covering ALL Cub Scout Leader positions), my experience working on staff at various Cub Scout programs, and the work the OA did with Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies made a big difference in gaining respect in that community. This is what happens when a MOVEMENT turns into a BUSINESS. I think Scouting is about to get a lot smaller, and fees are about to skyrocket.