Eagle94-A1

GREAT QUESTION! The reason why 'Youth Led" keeps coming up in Scouting is because it is the heart of Scouting, yet it is not fully practiced, and in some units embraced. And as @TAHAWK points out, BSA has not had a true explanation of the Patrol Method in the literature and training for a very long time. You would have to look at William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's work to get a true understanding, and his last handbook and training material was from my youth. Is it any wonder folks will say their troop is "youth led" when in reality it is not? And to be honest, while I say my troop is youth led, is not fully youth led if you go by Hillcourt's work. While the PLC is planning activities, meetings, etc, The PLs are not doing the advancement sign offs. That is currently restricted to the SPL, but we are slowly moving towards that. The SM does have concerns about if the Scouts are responsible enough for that. And that leads into some of the reasons why youth led is not practiced and embraced. Some of the most obvious reasons is that it is a messy, unorganized by adult standards, and chaotic process. Adults know there is a better way, but do not have the patience to let the Scouts figure it out on their own. Scouts will make mistakes, and it is hard for some adults to let their Scouts make mistakes. Sometimes the adults think because the Scouts made mistakes, they are not ready for responsibility, ignoring the fact that making mistakes is a learning tool. Also repetition is a learning tool. The more something is done, the better you get at it. Sometimes the adults do not like the decisions the Scouts have made, and believe "Scouting needs to change with the times." best example I have of that is the SM who appoints all the PLs, troop leadership, and SPL because "the same people keep getting elected over and over, and [appointing the leaders] makes it fair for everyone]. The Scouts have a better understanding of each other than we do, and this SM was ignoring the fact that the Scout not getting elected was causing the most problems. Sometimes adults are not comfortable being in the background, they need to do something. And sometimes you have adults that cannot let go, they cannot accept the fact that the Scout is growing up. F Other times, adults are using their own experience as an example, and that experience may not be the best one. One SM grew up in the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s, and his troop rarely camped. He doesn't understand why camping is so important. Another SM was in a troop was run like the military unit because his SM was prior military, issuing commands to the PLC. That is the model he uses with his troop. Finally some adults get so focused on false metrics, i.e. FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR, Number of Eagle Scouts, JTE, etc that they forget we are suppose to be developing youth, not meeting some false goal.

The emphasized sentence concerns me greatly because if trained Scouters do not understand this, we are in deep trouble. YOUTH LED VIA THE PATROL METHOD IS THE FOUNDATION OF SCOUTING! (emphasis). The fun programs you mention and others: sports, 4-H, band, robotics, church groups, school, etc all have adults telling the kids what to do, how to do it, etc. Scouting is suppose to let the youth be in charge with adults guiding and mentoring. Youth make the decisions, do the planning and organizing, conduct the activities, etc. For many youth in Scouting, this the first time they actually do what they want to do, and it IS magical. Youth led is messy, disorganized, and full of trial and error. The Scouts may seem like they are flailing about. BUT, in the long term they learn and grow so much faster. Sadly I am seeing more adult led troops and troops that allow adults to interfere needlessly in the patrols. My sons and I left a troop like that because it was not Scouting. Scouts were getting frustrated at the adult interference to the point they "zoned out." They had no true reason to be there except because they wanted to get Eagle or they were forced to. When we switched to a true youth-led troop, it was a world of difference in attitudes. My boys went from apathetic and sarcastic complainers who gave up trying to run their patrols to active, sympathetic, Scouts willing to take charge and be successful with fun activities. I have worked with youth professionally in my career. I have been deeply concerned how many youth today have no interest in taking initiative and responsibility for themselves. I have seen it when i was organizing job shadowing experiences at the hospital, and I see it at the college. Parents making all the decisions and doing all the work for their high school, and in some cases college students. Worse case, mom was ticked off she could not be at the academic counseling session due to COVID. Student got the schedule and classes he wanted. When Mom was informed, she was ticked off, yelled through the door the schedule is screwed up and she will be redoing it as soon as she is able to. What life lessons did that college student learn? Youth led does a heck of a lot more than "make a tedious program more enjoyable." It gives them a chance to make decisions, problem solve, responsibility, plan, provide leadership, make mistakes and learn from them, independence, and self reliance. I agree with you the advancement. The Advancement Method has been so corrupted over the years by National, that is is nowhere near it's original purpose by Baden-Powell. The original purpose of Advancement was to provide a series of skills and experiences that Scouts challenged themselves to complete. Mastery of the skill was required, and rewarded with a badge. Nowadays the focus is on getting First Class in a year, getting Eagle, getting X number of MBs, etc that some Scouts are not truly getting the full benefit of the advancement program. I'd rather have the 16 year old Life Scout who did a 50 miler in the Canadian wilderness who truly earned First Aid MB do first aid on me to save my life than the Life Scout, about to make Eagle, who did not know what shock was and how to treat it at a first aid competition. The purpose of advancement is to learn life skills, not get Eagle, X number of MBs, etc. And too many adults have forgotten that. One of the reasons it is fun is because they have their freedom. They make the decisions. They have the responsibility. Yes camping is fun. But deciding where to camp, what activity THEY want to do, what meals THEY want to cook, etc is freedom that they do not have in other fun activities.

Not a lawyer, so bear with me if it's a stupid question. Wasn't part of the charter agreement, and part of the CO's charter fees, insurance to cover stuff like this? Wouldn't teh BSA still be liable?

At least in my neck of the woods, sad, but true. We lost a lot of experienced Scouters, and have not recovered yet. One challenge the remaining experienced Scouters are having is that the inexperienced folks want things their way. No matter what type of training you do for them, counselling or discussion you have with them, they will tell you Scouting needs to change with the times and their way is better, ignore you, or become downright nasty with you. I have had inexperienced adults threaten to leave if they didn't get their way, thus stranding Scouts and ruining program. I have been yelled that I don't know what I am doing when i have tried to talk to some folks.

Agree. Historically it was the female Scouters, but I am seeing more and more male Scouters interfering. TRUTH! The SM of the troop I mentioned above was an Eagle from the 1970s. He could not understand why camping was so important. Also he appointed troop leaders so that "everyone could get a chance." One of my sons' Webelos den was camping with the troop, and I was up talking to the Scouts around the campfire. I knew a bunch of them from their time in Cub Scouts. Long story short, the discussion of how a troop is suppose to run, elections, etc comes up in the conversation with them. The a loud "SHUT UP AND GO TO BED" is yelled. Another SM was in an adult led troop that allowed siblings to attend growing up. He followed that model when he became SM. No amount of training could convince him he was doing things incorrectly. He knew better because he is an Eagle Scout.

I saw this first hand, and the troop initially lost experienced Scouts. Once the experienced Scouts left, they didn't get many new Scouts that stayed around. It wasn't until they got an adult with a youth background, and the Webelos III parents left, that the troop finally settled down. But it took 7 years to get back on track, and they still have a ways to go.

Friend showed me a DIY gravity set up. 2L drink bottle with the bottom cut out for water intake. Screw on a Sawyer Squeeze filter to the bottle. And get some food grade hose from a home improvement store. It works.

First, your link does not mention anything anything about a "research question/theory," and talks about how to conduct polls. @Eagledad did have a research question for his survey, "Why did you leave Scouting?" which according to your link, is an acceptable type of question for a survey. I think you are confusing the Scientific Method, a specific type of research method, and research methods in general. The Scientific Method is the one that has a theory that you perform tests, experiments, etc to prove or disprove your theory. And it is one type of research method. You see this in science and medicine. Other research methods are used in different fields. Other research methods include polling and surveys, which Eagledad uses and you linked, analytics and statics, interviews, and good old fashion journal and book reading, to name a few off the top of my head. The need for a theory to do research versus need for research too provide needed answers is usually based upon the environment you are in. In academia, theories are needed and proved or disproved, with your research supporting it. Best personal example is when a prof stated that the Balkan Crisis of the 1990s had no relation to what Nazi Germany did in the 1930s and 40s. When I disagreed with him and gave him a few examples, he said, 'Very well. Why don't you make that your paper." And thus my theory, How Serbian leaders used Nazi techniques, including science and medicine, in the Balkan Crisis was born. I used books, articles, and and interview to support that thesis. In the ''real world" as I call the non academic setting, the need for answers will cause research to be conducted. I cannot count the number of times physicians and nurses needed answers on best practices and evidence based medicine for new medical conditions they were encountering, and needed NOW over my 12 years as a medical librarian. Best personal example would the physician who needed information on counteracting a drug that a patient was having an allergic reaction to while in surgery. They didn't need a theory to prove or disprove, they needed an answer NOW.

I am just going to tell you about Traditional Scouting in my neck of the woods. IT WORKS! (emphasis). We have two "old school," or as some of my Scouts have said "sweaty," troops in my district. My troop has 11 active, is Scout led, and is a "hiking and camping" troop. Although we probably should add "Biking" to that list since we have 3 biking trips scheduled for the upcoming year since the Scouts want Cycling MB. They plan and organize everything, and adults are there for health, safety and guidance. It is messy, and mistakes are made by the Scouts. But they are learning experiences. We normally have an Annual Planning Conference, but with COVID, we did a 6 month plan instead. Part of me was upset because trips that had been scheduled, and the Scouts want to do had to be limited to anything within an hour. BUT, the Scouts took everything in stride, and I was really proud how they handled the situation. If the troop is weak in an area, it is recruiting. We rely to heavily on word of mouth since we do not have a feeder pack. In the last 2 years we had 3 transfer into the troop ( my two oldest and a friend), 2 Cross Over from Cub Scouts, and 3 with no prior Scouting experience.. We also lost 3 to aging out, 1 to behavioral issues, and 1 to a family crisis. And we will lose 2 next year due to ageing out. Yes we tend to retain them until they are 18, even after they earn Eagle. The other troop is more "old school" than us, or "super sweaty," as my Scouts call them. Pre-COVID they had 36 active, and many of their 18-20 year olds stayed around until they left for college, the military, or jobs as ASMs. They are now down to about 26 active. They are primarily a minority troop with inner city kids from the local housing authority in it. The CO views Scouting as a true outreach ministry, and heavily subsidizes the troop to the point they limited the number of Scouts in the troop. ( although the SM is good and increasing that number the past few years. It use to be 32 Scouts). They do not have a feeder pack, but they have an active recruiting program, when they have room. They also have an extremely active outdoor program. They do weekend damp outs at least once a month every month except February ( Scouting for Food project) and December ( they are Salvation Army Bell Ringers), and they will multiple camp outs in a month. They are also involved in ARC hurricane shelter operations. One year they spent more time running shelters than camping. They encourage the Scouts to truly live the Scout Oath and Law in their everyday lives, and because the majority of the Scouts are in they same neighborhood and schools, they tend to hang together all the time. Even the troops that are not as active like the two above have active traditional elements to keep interest. They may be more advancement oriented, or more adult led, or more outdoor club than a traditional Scout troop that is youth led. But they are still in the outdoors. The youth WANT the outdoor adventures. They want the challenges. And Traditional Scouting does prepare them for adulthood than anything else.

Folks, Would it be possible to take a pause for a little bit? I know this is a very challenging issue that is extremely multifaceted. I see all sides of the arguments. I know folks who were molested, I know someone falsely accused (criminal investigation conducted and evidence supported her story), and I had to keep Cubs occupied while police intervened (that was not a good night at camp). Let's remember the #1 goal of the lead lawyer as stated in the Diane Rheem interview linked in a previous post and in another interview I heard him in : the complete dissolution of the Boy Scouts of America and IF (emphasis in interview) an organization like the Boy Scouts is still needed, it start from scratch.

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! (emphasis) When you read the syllabus, they do the activity and get signed off, and there is a comment that goes something like "just like the Scout." They also want you give give out cut out badges as they do the skills. IMHO this only promotes the "one and done" attitude. When I teach IOLS, I tell them they WILL need to practice and practice. I say the course is not designed for them to teach outdoor skills, but rather to have the basics down so they are not a burden on the Scouts. Anyone remember the old Berenstain Bears book on the Bear Scouts, when Papa Bear takes over as SM with a know it all attitude, but no training? Let's face it who would you rather have teaching, the adult who went through a weekend training, or a 13 year old who has been through 2-3 years of camping?

I agree, wood tools needs more time in training AND information in the SHB. When I reviewed the last time I did IOLS, the section on wood tools in the BSHB was missing so much info compared to older BSHBs, that I handed out sections from my 1960s FB and some other sources. Mixed emotions on this one. While I agree the older Scouts should be able to teach the younger Scouts and new adults these skills, I've seen a few things that make me question the idea. First the idea of "One and Done" is so prevalent, I am seeing fewer and fewer Scouts that actually have the skills to do the teaching. Sad but true. Best example is the 17 year old Life Scout who could not do basic T-2-1 first aid skills because " i took it my first year at summer camp, I don't remember them." The second concern is adults intimidating Scouts. I have seen and heard about adults intimidate Scouts, sometimes to disastrous effects. I have seen adults trying to change OA elections get "upset" to the point that I had to intervene and defend the youth. And one of the reasons my sons and I left a troop was because 2 adults intimidated the Scouts to the point that the SPL walked away. What was supposed to be a good trip and recruiting opportunity was a total charley foxtrot. Not only did none of the Webelos who were suppose to camp with us join the troop, we left the troop because of the yahoos and their actions that weekend. I wish I was there with the troop to put a stop to them. I have had older Scouts staff my IOLS, just like they do WB now. It works.

So it is $10 to watch something online AND camp in the backyard. Do they ship the food to me, or do I need to get my own food? 3 hours for lunch? Must include nap time. 3hours 45 minutes for dinner and KP? I am really not impressed with this training. I think C-3P0 said it best:

Once the camel's nose comes into the tent....

If they make IOLS virtual.... Do you want to trust your Scouts camping with someone who has had only virtual outdoor training? On a positive side, for those folks with the outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities, this should make their life easier As for most of my folks, well the internet service is lousy, and I see live IOLS continuing for some time in my area

At one time there were 3 different WB courses: Scoutmaster, Cub Scout Trainer, and Exploring Advisor. Exploring WB was not around when I was a young ASM, just the Cub Scout Trainer and Scoutmaster. Both courses were intense, weeklong courses focusing on a specific program. You had to not only complete the basic training in the program you were in, but also have 2 years of experience AND be invited. The two years tenure was waivable, but you still had to be invited. Most WBers I encountered were cool, but there was some that were cliquish, and had attitudes. Sadly I seen the attitudes more since the changed it in 2000. The reason they changed it is to make it a "One Size Fits All Programs," which in reality takes away from the program specifics. Also anyone with basic training in their POR can take the course. I have seen folks who had rushed through online training to sign up for WB. I have encountered a few folks who thought they knew it all about Scouting because they went through WB, but had only been Cub Scout leaders or Scouters for a couple of years.

I've ran into those critters. I've also ran into critters who believed if you aren't wearing beads, you don't know squat. I found it interesting that when i suggested something, it was ignored. When my beaded friend suggested the same thing, it was brilliant. Focus on your scouts. Do what is best for them. Don't worry about anyone else.

I am old school, and like books. One of the most informative and something I learned a little from was the 3RD EDITION 2 VOLUME SCOUTMASTER'S HANDBOOK. The only reason I got "a little" out of it was I lent it to a SCOUTREACH Scoutmaster, and never got it back. I would love to have it again because there was a wealth of information in it.

Or it could be for the taller Scouts. I know I got my 3 hoodlums the 36' because it was the longest at the time. Oldest is tall and slender, and the 36 inch sash was a little short. Thankfully it didn't look too bad. Try having a 6'1" Scout with a 30" sash, comes under the armpit and looks ridiculous. That too, although MBs are allowed on the back of the sash. Personally, I go for the longest one available and "customize" the size. Folding and stitching to size, then letting the stitching out as they grow, is something I recommend.

Could not agree more. The old Scoutmaster Fundamentals Course I took, which is today's SM Specific, IOLS, with a model meeting added, was BORING! The only thing new I learned was about 30 to 60 minute spent on paperwork, i.e. tour permits, advancement reports, etc. When I had folks who "needed" IOLS, but already had the knowledge, skills, and abilities of the course. I used them for staff. Best example was the 3 Beader who was "untrained" in his current POR because of IOLS. He was an Eagle, Vigil, and Summer Camp Staffer ( I think First Year Camper was on area he staffed), who went to WB as a Cubmaster, and staffed it as an ASM. Then you got the adults who went through NYLT, or one of the predecessor courses, which covers the same material as WB except the ticket. One JLTC Staffer, who also went through WB, told me it was a waste of his time as he knew everything WB was teaching. The only benefit for him was meeting some new folks and getting to wear the WB regalia when he completed his ticket.

Chapter 7 is what the lead lawyer wants.

I can vouch for the anti-Catholic discrimination @David CO is getting. I was lucky growing up. My hometown is largely Catholic, 90+% of the private schools are Catholic, and I did not face the discrimination. Moving to NC, Is were I first encountered anti-Catholic bias. I've have heard it at restaurants, children's' playgrounds, and yes at Scouting functions. When I was a DE, I had one new pack's leadership all set and ready to go. I had about 40 new Cubs signed up, just needed the money and a CO for them. When the local Catholic Church offered to charter the pack, the potential CM called me, cursed me out, and stated he was not going to join any organization that allows Catholics in it. He did not know I was Catholic. While I was glad he stepped down, but so did the rest of the potential pack leadership. Out of 40 kids, only 5 started the new pack. Bias was still felt, and the pack folded within a year because they could not get more Cubs or leaders. At Scouting functions, when I mention I am Catholic, I get the shocked, "You're a heathen" look at times.

In my 34 years experience with NSPs, one of two things happen. Either A. The Troop Guide is so overwhelmed with working with the new Scouts, they burn out fast and are ineffective and it hurts the Scouts, or B. The adults take over. Most of the time Scout led troops will go back to Traditional Patrols, now called Mixed-Aged Patrols.

1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! 2. I do not know how long you have been out of Scouting, but a lot has changed in parents' attitudes over the years. Part of it is Cub Scouts, everything IS family oriented and parents doing stuff with the kids at Cub level is the norm. But instead of letting the Cubs do more and more on their own in the Webelos years, they keep treating them as Cub Scouts and doing everything with, and sometimes for, them. Then, instead of being prepared for Scouts BSA, both the new Scouts, and especially the parents, are ill equipped to handle the big differences in programs. Add to the fact at one time BSA was pushing "Family Scouting," there were some major issues in some troops that confused adding Girl troops with opening up everything to families, and it was a mess. My sons and I left a troop because it was "family friendly." Not only were parents attending troop functions, but also younger siblings who had no business being there. Add the "Cross Over Cub Leader Syndrome," i.e. new Scouters still acting like Cub Scout Den Leaders with their constant interference, to the point the Scouts are complaining, it is a big challenge. What made it worse was the parents would ignore and disregard the experienced Scouters.

Telecom would have lobbied to stop it. We have 2 large towns/small cities in the state that have their own internet service provider companies. Mine was doing so well, they met their 5 year goals in 9 months. The city knew there was a demand. But did not realize how big a demand there was. Telecom sued, and kept losing all the way to SCOTUS. Then they changed tactics. Telecom lobbied the state to limit how far the city ISPs could expand in territory, essentially city limits and existing county customers, and prevented other cities from doing the same.