Eagle94-A1

I am just going to tell you about Traditional Scouting in my neck of the woods. IT WORKS! (emphasis). We have two "old school," or as some of my Scouts have said "sweaty," troops in my district. My troop has 11 active, is Scout led, and is a "hiking and camping" troop. Although we probably should add "Biking" to that list since we have 3 biking trips scheduled for the upcoming year since the Scouts want Cycling MB. They plan and organize everything, and adults are there for health, safety and guidance. It is messy, and mistakes are made by the Scouts. But they are learning experiences. We normally have an Annual Planning Conference, but with COVID, we did a 6 month plan instead. Part of me was upset because trips that had been scheduled, and the Scouts want to do had to be limited to anything within an hour. BUT, the Scouts took everything in stride, and I was really proud how they handled the situation. If the troop is weak in an area, it is recruiting. We rely to heavily on word of mouth since we do not have a feeder pack. In the last 2 years we had 3 transfer into the troop ( my two oldest and a friend), 2 Cross Over from Cub Scouts, and 3 with no prior Scouting experience.. We also lost 3 to aging out, 1 to behavioral issues, and 1 to a family crisis. And we will lose 2 next year due to ageing out. Yes we tend to retain them until they are 18, even after they earn Eagle. The other troop is more "old school" than us, or "super sweaty," as my Scouts call them. Pre-COVID they had 36 active, and many of their 18-20 year olds stayed around until they left for college, the military, or jobs as ASMs. They are now down to about 26 active. They are primarily a minority troop with inner city kids from the local housing authority in it. The CO views Scouting as a true outreach ministry, and heavily subsidizes the troop to the point they limited the number of Scouts in the troop. ( although the SM is good and increasing that number the past few years. It use to be 32 Scouts). They do not have a feeder pack, but they have an active recruiting program, when they have room. They also have an extremely active outdoor program. They do weekend damp outs at least once a month every month except February ( Scouting for Food project) and December ( they are Salvation Army Bell Ringers), and they will multiple camp outs in a month. They are also involved in ARC hurricane shelter operations. One year they spent more time running shelters than camping. They encourage the Scouts to truly live the Scout Oath and Law in their everyday lives, and because the majority of the Scouts are in they same neighborhood and schools, they tend to hang together all the time. Even the troops that are not as active like the two above have active traditional elements to keep interest. They may be more advancement oriented, or more adult led, or more outdoor club than a traditional Scout troop that is youth led. But they are still in the outdoors. The youth WANT the outdoor adventures. They want the challenges. And Traditional Scouting does prepare them for adulthood than anything else.

Folks, Would it be possible to take a pause for a little bit? I know this is a very challenging issue that is extremely multifaceted. I see all sides of the arguments. I know folks who were molested, I know someone falsely accused (criminal investigation conducted and evidence supported her story), and I had to keep Cubs occupied while police intervened (that was not a good night at camp). Let's remember the #1 goal of the lead lawyer as stated in the Diane Rheem interview linked in a previous post and in another interview I heard him in : the complete dissolution of the Boy Scouts of America and IF (emphasis in interview) an organization like the Boy Scouts is still needed, it start from scratch.

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! (emphasis) When you read the syllabus, they do the activity and get signed off, and there is a comment that goes something like "just like the Scout." They also want you give give out cut out badges as they do the skills. IMHO this only promotes the "one and done" attitude. When I teach IOLS, I tell them they WILL need to practice and practice. I say the course is not designed for them to teach outdoor skills, but rather to have the basics down so they are not a burden on the Scouts. Anyone remember the old Berenstain Bears book on the Bear Scouts, when Papa Bear takes over as SM with a know it all attitude, but no training? Let's face it who would you rather have teaching, the adult who went through a weekend training, or a 13 year old who has been through 2-3 years of camping?

I agree, wood tools needs more time in training AND information in the SHB. When I reviewed the last time I did IOLS, the section on wood tools in the BSHB was missing so much info compared to older BSHBs, that I handed out sections from my 1960s FB and some other sources. Mixed emotions on this one. While I agree the older Scouts should be able to teach the younger Scouts and new adults these skills, I've seen a few things that make me question the idea. First the idea of "One and Done" is so prevalent, I am seeing fewer and fewer Scouts that actually have the skills to do the teaching. Sad but true. Best example is the 17 year old Life Scout who could not do basic T-2-1 first aid skills because " i took it my first year at summer camp, I don't remember them." The second concern is adults intimidating Scouts. I have seen and heard about adults intimidate Scouts, sometimes to disastrous effects. I have seen adults trying to change OA elections get "upset" to the point that I had to intervene and defend the youth. And one of the reasons my sons and I left a troop was because 2 adults intimidated the Scouts to the point that the SPL walked away. What was supposed to be a good trip and recruiting opportunity was a total charley foxtrot. Not only did none of the Webelos who were suppose to camp with us join the troop, we left the troop because of the yahoos and their actions that weekend. I wish I was there with the troop to put a stop to them. I have had older Scouts staff my IOLS, just like they do WB now. It works.

So it is $10 to watch something online AND camp in the backyard. Do they ship the food to me, or do I need to get my own food? 3 hours for lunch? Must include nap time. 3hours 45 minutes for dinner and KP? I am really not impressed with this training. I think C-3P0 said it best:

Once the camel's nose comes into the tent....

If they make IOLS virtual.... Do you want to trust your Scouts camping with someone who has had only virtual outdoor training? On a positive side, for those folks with the outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities, this should make their life easier As for most of my folks, well the internet service is lousy, and I see live IOLS continuing for some time in my area

At one time there were 3 different WB courses: Scoutmaster, Cub Scout Trainer, and Exploring Advisor. Exploring WB was not around when I was a young ASM, just the Cub Scout Trainer and Scoutmaster. Both courses were intense, weeklong courses focusing on a specific program. You had to not only complete the basic training in the program you were in, but also have 2 years of experience AND be invited. The two years tenure was waivable, but you still had to be invited. Most WBers I encountered were cool, but there was some that were cliquish, and had attitudes. Sadly I seen the attitudes more since the changed it in 2000. The reason they changed it is to make it a "One Size Fits All Programs," which in reality takes away from the program specifics. Also anyone with basic training in their POR can take the course. I have seen folks who had rushed through online training to sign up for WB. I have encountered a few folks who thought they knew it all about Scouting because they went through WB, but had only been Cub Scout leaders or Scouters for a couple of years.

I've ran into those critters. I've also ran into critters who believed if you aren't wearing beads, you don't know squat. I found it interesting that when i suggested something, it was ignored. When my beaded friend suggested the same thing, it was brilliant. Focus on your scouts. Do what is best for them. Don't worry about anyone else.

I am old school, and like books. One of the most informative and something I learned a little from was the 3RD EDITION 2 VOLUME SCOUTMASTER'S HANDBOOK. The only reason I got "a little" out of it was I lent it to a SCOUTREACH Scoutmaster, and never got it back. I would love to have it again because there was a wealth of information in it.

Or it could be for the taller Scouts. I know I got my 3 hoodlums the 36' because it was the longest at the time. Oldest is tall and slender, and the 36 inch sash was a little short. Thankfully it didn't look too bad. Try having a 6'1" Scout with a 30" sash, comes under the armpit and looks ridiculous. That too, although MBs are allowed on the back of the sash. Personally, I go for the longest one available and "customize" the size. Folding and stitching to size, then letting the stitching out as they grow, is something I recommend.

Could not agree more. The old Scoutmaster Fundamentals Course I took, which is today's SM Specific, IOLS, with a model meeting added, was BORING! The only thing new I learned was about 30 to 60 minute spent on paperwork, i.e. tour permits, advancement reports, etc. When I had folks who "needed" IOLS, but already had the knowledge, skills, and abilities of the course. I used them for staff. Best example was the 3 Beader who was "untrained" in his current POR because of IOLS. He was an Eagle, Vigil, and Summer Camp Staffer ( I think First Year Camper was on area he staffed), who went to WB as a Cubmaster, and staffed it as an ASM. Then you got the adults who went through NYLT, or one of the predecessor courses, which covers the same material as WB except the ticket. One JLTC Staffer, who also went through WB, told me it was a waste of his time as he knew everything WB was teaching. The only benefit for him was meeting some new folks and getting to wear the WB regalia when he completed his ticket.

Chapter 7 is what the lead lawyer wants.

I can vouch for the anti-Catholic discrimination @David CO is getting. I was lucky growing up. My hometown is largely Catholic, 90+% of the private schools are Catholic, and I did not face the discrimination. Moving to NC, Is were I first encountered anti-Catholic bias. I've have heard it at restaurants, children's' playgrounds, and yes at Scouting functions. When I was a DE, I had one new pack's leadership all set and ready to go. I had about 40 new Cubs signed up, just needed the money and a CO for them. When the local Catholic Church offered to charter the pack, the potential CM called me, cursed me out, and stated he was not going to join any organization that allows Catholics in it. He did not know I was Catholic. While I was glad he stepped down, but so did the rest of the potential pack leadership. Out of 40 kids, only 5 started the new pack. Bias was still felt, and the pack folded within a year because they could not get more Cubs or leaders. At Scouting functions, when I mention I am Catholic, I get the shocked, "You're a heathen" look at times.

In my 34 years experience with NSPs, one of two things happen. Either A. The Troop Guide is so overwhelmed with working with the new Scouts, they burn out fast and are ineffective and it hurts the Scouts, or B. The adults take over. Most of the time Scout led troops will go back to Traditional Patrols, now called Mixed-Aged Patrols.

1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! 2. I do not know how long you have been out of Scouting, but a lot has changed in parents' attitudes over the years. Part of it is Cub Scouts, everything IS family oriented and parents doing stuff with the kids at Cub level is the norm. But instead of letting the Cubs do more and more on their own in the Webelos years, they keep treating them as Cub Scouts and doing everything with, and sometimes for, them. Then, instead of being prepared for Scouts BSA, both the new Scouts, and especially the parents, are ill equipped to handle the big differences in programs. Add to the fact at one time BSA was pushing "Family Scouting," there were some major issues in some troops that confused adding Girl troops with opening up everything to families, and it was a mess. My sons and I left a troop because it was "family friendly." Not only were parents attending troop functions, but also younger siblings who had no business being there. Add the "Cross Over Cub Leader Syndrome," i.e. new Scouters still acting like Cub Scout Den Leaders with their constant interference, to the point the Scouts are complaining, it is a big challenge. What made it worse was the parents would ignore and disregard the experienced Scouters.

Telecom would have lobbied to stop it. We have 2 large towns/small cities in the state that have their own internet service provider companies. Mine was doing so well, they met their 5 year goals in 9 months. The city knew there was a demand. But did not realize how big a demand there was. Telecom sued, and kept losing all the way to SCOTUS. Then they changed tactics. Telecom lobbied the state to limit how far the city ISPs could expand in territory, essentially city limits and existing county customers, and prevented other cities from doing the same.

Reagarding online training, it is virtually nil. One person attempted to do YPT 2.O, and stopped after spending 4 hours trying to dowload and do it. When we finally got permission to do the live version, and we went thru hoops to get it from the SE, we had a large attendance. As soon as the COVID situation gets better, we will be doing a 3rd time. Ditto all the training. COVID seriously screwed up my training achedule.

Trust me, it can be bad. COVID really showed how poor the local internet infrastructure is. Schools have issued laptops and hotspots to students. They also left the wifi running while school has closed so there are students in the parking lots. Local businesses have offered or expanded wifi to help students. The city owned internet provider, which can not expand outside city limits thanks to major telecom companies lobbying to stop them, has established several free wifi zones to help students. One of the reasons i was "essential" was my library was open with limited service and capacity. 100% of the patrons needed computer or wifi access.

The entire OPERATION FIRST CLASS program uses faulty methodology. The premise is that if a Scout get's First Class in a year, they stay longer in Scouting. Two things that skewed the data is the former LDS Church model and the activity level of units. From talking to LDS Scouters, overserving their program, and LDS membership requirements, LDS troops segregated their 11 year olds in a separate patrol and focused on getting them to First Class by the time they turn twelve. The 11 year old Patrol was more of a Webelos program with the ASM really acting like a DL, and the Troop Guide acting more like a DC. And of course, LDS automatically registered all youth regardless if they attended meetings and events or not. With 1/5 of the membership being LDS, that heavily influences the stats. As a 15 year old Life Scout, who was one of the Guinea pigs that tested the New Scout Patrol prior to it becoming the recommendation in 1989, I noticed that everything BSA came up with to support NSPs and OPERATION FIRST CLASS was focused solely on advancement. There was no mention of how active the troops were, i.e. how often were they hiking, camping, meeting, doing activities, etc. None of the stuff that really attracts youth to the program was mentioned in the literature. And of course an active troop will retain Scouts.

Do not know how effective that will be. We have areas of the council with no internet service, or dial up service, as we a rural area. Some of my friends are only online at work because of connectivity. Others are using their phones as hot spots, which uses data. One of my friends is paying through the nose to get unlimted data so his 3 kids can do their online school work with their phones as hotspots.

Update. Met the "new" DE this weekend. Actually he is the DE in a neighboring district. Found out that we will be merging with 2 other district come January 1. Ours will be the smallest geographic district with a little over 31000 square miles of territory. Largest will be almost 46000 square miles. Currently no idea how roundtables, event planning, and district Eagle BORs are going to be done. At least the bug to switch to the Unit Committee with District representation option has been mentioned to the DE. Interesting character. If I didn't know he was a professional, I would think he is a new volunteer. Very jaded with a lot of stuff coming out of national at the moment.

My DE believes that the new NCAP standards are a way to shut down small camps within a 500 mile range of the Summit so that it would get more business, especially with summer camps. And I thought I was jaded.

How do we know any of the claims are real? After all some of these cases go back decades. On a different note, here are my thoughts on the latest. 1. Quickest wat to destroy the BSA, which the lead lawyer has stated at least twice and @CynicalScouter provides the linnk to one occasion https://dianerehm.org/shows/2019-08-20/a-moment-of-reckoning-for-the-boy-scouts-of-america-and-a-history-of-sexual-abuse, is to threaten the Charter Organizations. NO ONE would want to be liable for that. 2. If memory serves, part of the Charter fee was to cover liability Insurance for the CO. So the BSA is still liable and not the COs. 3. I think BSA's financials are lower that anyone thought, or are secured behind endowments and trusts.

Yes, take advantage of the uniform sale now, you WILL be voluntold. It may be a few weeks from now. It may be a few months from now. But you will be in a uniformed Position of Responsibility,