Eagle94-A1

Unfortunately, UC comes in all shapes and sizes. Some do the job by visiting periodically, and helping where needed. Some are just a name. And I've known one who was extremely active with his units. He visited at least twice a month, and only got involved when problems arose by offering advice, counseling, and mentoring. Unfortunately the unit leaders have ignored his advice. While technology is a useful tool, heck I used a unit's Facebook page to keep up with them and tried to help them out, sometimes the problems are too much for simple email, and a sit down meeting is needed. But as I have learned the hard way, sometimes folks do not want to change.

Sprout, As others have said, there is no one way of doing things. Back in the dark ages when I was a Cub, Tigers were a separate program, and Cub Scouts was only three years: 3rd grade was when you joined as a Wolf, 4th was when you were a Bear, and 5th grade was when you became a Webelos. And it usually took the 9 months of the school year to get AOL, hence when most Cross Overs occured. And there are still a few packs that do it that way. When Cub Scouts expanded to a 4.5 - 5 year program, Most packs used the Blue and Gold in February/March as the Cross Over Night for the reasons you have stated. A few years back, my pack decided to do Cross Overs in December. Reason for that was A) it was the earliest they can earn the AOL and Cross Over, B) Our Cubs were getting restless and jumping at the bit to become Boy Scouts, C) Since I charter end in January, we didn't have to deal with any of the recharter paperwork on them for only 1-2 months, and D) Gives them a chance to get to know the troop and get ready for summer camp. For me that last reason, getting to know the troop and preparing for summer camp, is the most important. I know that when I crossed over in May, I really didn't know the troop, nor was I financially prepared to go to summer camp in 3-4 weeks after joining the troop. So I misssed out.

To get somewhat back to the original poster's question. You need to establish a relationship with your pack. I can tell you some ways NOT to establish a healthy relationship. 1) You do not communicate with the pack's leadership. How can a pack know about you when you do not communicate with them? Facebook is a good tool, but face to face contact via visits and roundtables are best way to communicate. 2) You do not skip events or activities that Webelos will be at. If you do not go to district or council camporees where Webelos are invited to attend, are announced in advance, and many Webelos dens place into their yearly schedule, do not be surprised if they decide to go to another troop that they met at such an event. 2A) You do not need to make your pack's leader BEG (emphasis) you to invite the Webelos to camp with you IF you do go to such an eventa event. You would think a troop would be happy to get a Webelos den to go camping with them, especially when the patrols get bonus points in the competition for having Webelos present. But on 2 occasions that has happened. One time the Webelos did camp with them, the second time, the WDL got tired of begging and waiting for a response, and accepted another troop's invitation to camp with them. Then the SM was surprised when the WDL said he had already made arrangements when the SM returned the phone call 2 days before the event. 3) You do not give a week and a half to two weeks advance notice for your Webelos Overnighter. With folks' busy schedules, you need to invite folks to an overnighter at least a month, if not more, to an overnight campout. 4) You do not provide Scouts as Den Chiefs or day camp staff that are immature, irresponsible, and cause enough problems that you send the scouts home. 5) You do not invite Webelos to a troop meeting a month before they Cross Over and pressure them into joining your troop. Unfortunately I didn't attend that event due to scheduling conflicts, but several parents, and one Cub, told me they felt pressured into joining them. 6) You do not take over a pack's Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies and turn the event into a last minute troop Court of Honor without telling the pack's leadership well in advance. It ticked off folks who were told the ceremonies would last a certain time, and then find out they are expected to stay longer than they were told due to the troop putting on a COH that none of the Cub leaders or parent were told about until that day. Unfortunately we did have several families pick up and leave after the pack was finished because of other commitments. 6A) Having someone drive to the Scout office before they close on a Saturday to pick up the troop's advancements for a COH that night does not give a good impression of the troop's organization to prospective new Scouts and their parents.

To add, the reason for my friend's silence to the Cubs and parents are for the same reasons I asked my son not to discuss which troop he was joining until the very last possible moment: to not create any problems and not destroy any units. I've seen what can happen when there is bad blood between a CO's pack and troop leaders. I've seen a troop fold, and eventually the pack as well. I do not ever want to be accused of subverting a unit, and I think I have shown that with everything I have done to try and help the CO's troop out over the past 3 years. I have scheduled IOLS training around their schedule so that their leaders could get the training they need, only to be told "It's too cold to camp," and only 1 person showing up. And then later I get lectured on how IOLS should be offered all the time in our district, that folks should not have to drive and hour or more away to another district to get the training. And that if we do not have enough staff to offer IOLS all the time, we need to hire folks to teach it. I have recruited for the troop, only to see those new scouts dropp out after 3 months. I have listened to the scouts complain about how the program is running, and being told once they get Eagle, they are gone. I have talked to scouts who transferred to another troop, and my own, complain about the troops MB and Eagle focused program and lack of camping. I have had parents contacting me privately asking if my son was joining the troop and I was becoming an ASM, only to transfer out when I responded in the negative. I have asked my son not to mention ALL of the reasons HE (emphasis) decided not to join the troop ("adults do too much", SM's son "is a bully and causes too much trouble", "they keep cancelling camp outs, I want a troop that goes camping") and instead state the scheduling conflict and that he has freinds in his current unit (which are true BTW). I have tried to counsel and mentor the SM on why folks are leaving, only to be told I need to adapt Scouting to modern times. Heck, I've gone so far as to stay overnight with the troop, when everyone in the unit left the camp Saturday night,except the SM's son and 1 scout so that there would be 2 deep leadership. I was planning on going home with my family when I discovered that situation.

Fred, When I said he kept it quiet, I meant to the parents and Cubs of the pack, not the CM and CC. Shortly after he made the decision, he informed the CM and CC that he was apporached by the pastor and several church members to restart the pack and troop at his church. He told them that he will be starting from scratch, and not trying to "steal" anyone from the pack. He did not try to recruit anyone from the pack to join his.That was in May/June, with enough time to get a replacement leader for him. Initially only him and his son left. The new pack became known in September. My pack was having some issues (the CM at the time is the current SM of the troop I've discussed), and when folks got frustrated, they looked to his pack since A) they knew him and B) His pack was doing things and was organized. So by December, 1/2 the folks left. With last minute cancellations of pack meetings, no awards to hand out, etc, I was even tempted to leave. Reason they were angry was again they viewed the pack as "competition" when in all honesty there was none.

Forgot to add, that is how Scouting is suppose to be.

Fred, Agree with you 100% on units helping each other. And as I have stated elsewhere I do not care what uniot a person joins or transfer too, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IN A UNIT (emphasis, not shouting). Either we can work on the unit meeting your needs, or we can help find another unit that will meet your needs. I've found that most times its the adults getting the "us versus them" attitude. A friend of mine left my pack to start one at his church because his pastor and others asked him to. He kept it quiet that he was leaving because he didn't to destroy the existing pack. Unfortunately when word did get around, about 1/2 the existing pack decided to follow him. It was the CM and CC that had the hard feeling and developed the "us vs. them" attitude, and it took several years for the CC and my friend to be on a speaking basis. Another example of adults having the "us vs. them" attitude was at one RU, we had every pack's dream leader show up: fully trained leader in both DL and CM positions who has just moved to the area and is lookign for a pack for his sons to join. After talking to him, I found out A) he's fully trained and B) he goes to the church where my friend started the new pack which needed experienced leaders. So I introduced him to my friend across the room, and he joins that pack. My CM was ticked because I sent him to the other pack. Now what's funny is this: now that the folks with the "us vs. them" attitude are no longer involved, both packs have a great relationship. They have actually sent Cubs to us who were not happy with them for whatever reason, and vice-versa. At district and council events where campsites are assigned and crowded, we generally end up together and have some joint campfires.

Burn out. At the moment, I'm wearing 5 hats and I would love to narrow it down to 3.

"It needs to be one unit similar to how UK and many other countries run it." Even in the UK, folks switch groups. I met one young lady who started out in one group. When she got her Queen's Scout, the group had a policy of having them look elsewhere to serve as a leader for whatever reason. So she joined as a leader with a second group. Because that group was not as adventurous as the previous group she was in, nor as adventurous as what some of the scouts wanted in the second group, she ended up starting a 3rd group, taking 1/2 the second group and a portion of the original group with her.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit, so please bear with me. What have you done for the pack lately? Are you sending them Den Chiefs? How about physcially going to a few meetings and inviting them personally instead of flyers? Does your CO have any events that you do that will not only promote the troop, give visibility to the public AND provide service as a thank you to the CO? Are there any public events, especially ones that may get photos in the paper, that can be done Like assisting the American Legion, or whoever in your area does it, put out flags on graves for Memorial Day? Do you do any joint activities? I ask because it can be said by some that I am subverting the troop my pack's CO charters with the one my son belongs to and I am a committee member for. How can I be accused of subverting the troop? Because I am going to invite them to visit my son's troop at the district camporee because the CO's troop is not going again this year. Because after begging the troop to provide den chiefs over several years, I am willing to recommend that when the next offer for DCs comes from one troop with no pack ( and it's not my son's troop either) we take them up on the offer. I am not trying to subvert this troop. As I have posted elsewhere I helped get the troop started, and when the new leadership took over bent over backwards trying to help them out, along with a host of other scouters. I have recruited for the troop, despite my better judgement, and those kids quit within 3 months. Out of the 5 Scouts from my old den who joined them, 1 quit within 3 months, 1 transferred to my son's troop in 5 months, and 1 has not been heard from since May. Only 2 of my guys remain with them. Now for a little history. My son's troop was in a very similar situation about 10 years ago. There was a major disagreement between the Cub Scout leaders and Boy Scout leaders. It destroyed the troop first, and eventually the pack. When both the pack and troop were reformed, the COR/CC wanted to make sure that A) the rift between the pack and troop does not happen again, and B) The troop is never accused of "poaching" other packs. In fact the COR/CC and I had a discussion after one BOR recently about the situation in the other troop, and made darn sure that give the other troop every single opportunity to recruit from my pack. BUT if we are going to lose the scouts altogether, then invite them to visit us and other troops. Now the troop and pack does have "joint" meetings on occassion. Three come immediately to mind. The Christmas party is a joint meeting with both CS and BS awards being given out. Also any Webelos ready to Cross Over do so .Blue and Gold Banquet is a joint activity, specifically birthday party/pack meeting/COH And again if any Webelos is ready to Cross Over, it's done.Finally the pack's last meeting of the school year is also a joint pack meeting/COH. Also when the Pack and troop do the community service projects, specifically Scouting for Food and Memorial Day Flags, they are inseparable, working together to do the same areas as a team. More later

Sad, and I've seen it happen. We had a kid have "panic attacks" during his Ordeal. As soon as he was able to, he called mom to pick him up after the Ordeal Ceremony. Only saw him once at an OA function, and that was the district camporee's Call Out Ceremony when we get all the Arrowmen in the campfire circle behind the ceremony team. Found out that nite the only reason he did OA was A) resume/college admissions, and B) Dad, grand dad, and I believe great grand dad, were all in the OA with grand dad being VERY involved with the lodge and council.

Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc. I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me. Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite

Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc. I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me. Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite

Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc. I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me. Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite

FYI the requirements: RANGER http://usscouts.org/advance/venturing/RangerAward.asp NOA http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/sitecore/content/home/boyscouts/youth/awards/noa.aspx

Phughes, #1 Welcome to the forums. #2 You do know that the NOA medal came about because Boy Scout leaders complained that they wanted their Scouts to earn the Venturing Ranger Award?

'Nut, Way back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos, Webelos were limited to a one night camp out with Boy Scouts or dad at a "Cub and Dad" weekend, which was a Saturday-Sunday event. Somethings take a while to change, just look at the requirements and artwork in the various CS handbooks, they are 99.999% identical to the one I had growing up. Yep, my pack also camp 2 nights, and council events for Cubs are 2 nites too.

You should be fine, although you may want to contact the trainer a in order to A) Make sure your husband go credit for OWLS ( some placed will give credit for OWLS and IOLS, some won't) and B) Make sure your council does not have stricter requirements on camping. Don't know why it would be limited only to 1 nite, except that someone hasn't updated the language from 30+ years ago.

Skip, You are correct, kids want camping. My pack is one of the more active packs with 3 camp outs a year, two of which are organized, council ones. Our program is really out of date, in fact my old book is almost, (try 95%) the same as my sons' books, and I even complained about the lack of adventure. Luckily that is suppose to be changing. On a tangent, parents do the bulk of the work on the CS camp outs I've been on. I know 2 guys who crossed over from Cubs to Scouts left after a few months b/c although they liked to camp, they didn't want to do any of the work. They were so use to the 'rents do the work, they didn't feel they should do any of the cooking or cleaning.

Renax, Does your den camp with a troop or do their own camp outs? I know that Webelos dens can camp on their own, but I've only seen them camp with troops, unless it's a district level event, like my district's Webeloree (and even then, the troops staffing the event usually camp with their CO's pack, but not always). I ask because what I've seen done with parents attending is the Boy Scout leaders take them away from the Scouts, and start orienting them about the Boy Scout program, focusing on differences. Basically keeping htem occupied and out of the Scouts way of having fun.

Skip, Not a daft question at all. Cubs Scouts is considered "family camping," and essentially everyone goes. It's usually Webelos (ages 9 and 10) that they stay with buddies for the first time. Believe it or not, it's been only within the last 15-20 years than an emphasis on Cub Scouts camping has taken place. And we still have a lot of folks, some who should know better, that have the attitude that, "Cubs don't need to camp." In my neck of the woods, it's only been in the past 6 years that anything like Kingsdown ISC's "Cub Hub" has taken place. And there are lots of rules and regs that have to be followed. For example, Cubs can climb, but they cannot abseil (or repel as we call it on this side of the pond), Cubs cannot do moving water boat trips (no raft building and racing in the Channel allowed here), etc. For got to add, some packs do not camp at all. The Latter Day Saints do not allow their Cubs to go camping at all, and I know of at least one pack who's Cubmaster has been around so long, she believes :"Cubs don't need to camp." Gonna get real interesting June 1st when the new changes, which I am told incorporate a lot more outdoor activities, goes into effect

Fred, I know that when I and my buddies did their Eagle projects back in the day, "meaningful or significant to the scout" were part of the discussion on doing projects. And as others have stated, if you have a passion fro what you are doing, you will be doing a heck of a lot better a job.

With Cubs, I have 2 hydration songs that I used at day camp. For pirate theme camps, the Pirate Cub Scout Hydration Song Yo ho yo ho a Cub Scout's life for me We're Cubs, we're the best and we have the knack, DRINK UP ME HARDIES YO HO (pause for drinking) We hike and we camp, And sometimes backpack DRINK UP ME HARDIES YO HO (pause for drinking) Yo ho yo ho a Cub Scout's life for me For knight theme camps, The Dragon Cub Scout Hydration Song. Late last night when we were all in bed, That old dragon had a cold up in his head. And when he coughed and sneezed He winked his eye and said, There'll be a hot time, for the old Knights tonight. WATER, WATER, WATER! (PAUSE FOR DRINKING) Next year we have a space theme for day camp. Can't think of one off the top of my head. Closest is STAR WARS CANTINA where every time cantina is mentioned, we pause to drink.

Not throwing knives, but tomahawks. I know back in the day when my lodge was running a tomahawk booth, we had to set everything up as if it was a BB gun range: range flag, commands, etc. I believe that was per G2SS. Only problem we had was we didn't have enough 'hawks for the numbers waiting to throw. Me personally, I wouldn't want the Scouts using their personal knives, unless they are specifically made for throwing, as they won't have the right balence and can be damaged.

OUT-FREAKING-STANDING! Now that's a service project, That young man will go far!