DuctTape

There was always an ebb and flow with rural, urban, suburban, etc... I am a huge proponent of the outdoors personally and in scouting. However I still see the outdoors and the related activities not as the goal or even focus. I keep myself grounded to the the focus written in the first handbook for boys, BSA. The purpose of scouting is for boys to learn to do things for themselves. The out of doors is the location, and the patrol method is the means. If boys weren't interested in animal husbandry as a merit badge, but are interested in nuclear science then it makes sense to adapt mbs to the boys interest. The lack of adventure I see is not in activities or fun but the decrease in the amount the boys are doing themselves. A zip line is fun and all, but what did the boys learn to do themselves beyond planning the menu for the day trip. I am not suggesting that zip lines, etc... have no place. My point is the adventure is the boys deciding to do something, figuring out how to do it, and then doing it. Thus the lack of adventure to me is a result of well-meaning adults planning, organizing, fundraising, etc... I will probably get flamed for this last comment, but I think part of that is the fault of chartering organizations who use scouts for their own goals instead.

I thought this mom's idea of the Santa disclosure was fantastic...http://www.today.com/parents/santa-real-handling-santa-talk-your-kids-t105765

The difference in opinion here is based upon each starting from a different premise. There are two main premises which are at odds with one another. Premise 1: All gay, transgender, etc... is a choice made by the person. Premise 2: All gay, transgender, etc... are not choices made by the person. We are arguing conclusions without first agreeing on an original premise. I highly doubt that agreement on the two contradictory premises is coming anytime soon.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not advicating for more adults to be involved in running the program, only as logistical resources. This also maintains a pool of potential future SMs. With many patrols, working independently of each other there will be a time when all these patrols choose different outings for the same weekend. This is where having a cadre of other scouters becomes necessary. Not a larger pot of coffee, but 5 smaller pots each 50 miles away.

More adults are necessary to be drivers to events, and if more patrol based trips occur more adults are needed to have 2-deep on the separate events occurung simultaneously at different lications.

With those boys, also comes their parents. From that group the CC should recruit committee members, and the SM should recruit ASM's. Get the adults trained so as to manage the larger troop. If it is too much for a single SM, then have the troop "break" into 2 smaller "troops" each with their own "SM" (really an ASM.) The one area most find difficult is managing camping trips this large. Encourage less "whole troop" and do things as patrols. The entire troop can go together to district camporees or other similar type events. My point is, to concentrate on the patrols, not the troop as a whole. More scouts = more potential adult volunteers.

Or license "Eagle Scout" and other BSA trademarks, copyrights etc... to allow GSA to use them in their own program if they so wish.

I disagree that the problem stems from adults not having a scouting experience as a youth. The very first scouters did not have it, yet they were the ones who pioneered the patrol method. I think the training for scouters should be improved to focus on the patrol method explicitly. As has been mentioned the implicit lessons do not work. It needs to be focused and direct. "This IS the patrol method vs, this is NOT." Instead of journey to excellence, there should be a journey to the patrol method. For example, first measure: At amy meeting did adults speak to the entire troop for more than 2 minutes? My point is there needs to be clarity of ADULT expectations first.

I have no religious test for scouts or scouters. Their acknowledgement of the DRP is all that is required by the BSA. their beliefs, and actions consistent with them are between them, and their religious leader (and/or parents).

Focus on your den. The pack is mostly irrelevant for the boys. Sure, the pack does the big events and stuff, but it is the consistent fun at the den level that matters. I have many memories from my cub scout days, and all of them are from things we did as a den. I don't know if we ever interacted with other dens. I certainly have no memory of it.

What most don't even realize is that the real advancement is in knowledge, skills and experience. The checklist, sign-off, and badges are a token meant to represent the real advancement. It appears many have come to believe these tokens are the advancement, instead of simply a symbol. Without true advancement in knowledge, skills and experience, the symbol is meaningless in and of itself.

Agreed. The entirety of the mb process has the potential to be great, but it has devolved into schoolwork and checklists. It is a shame, the boys lose out on so much.

Charter schools will claim to be public schools when it suits them, and private when it suits them. Usually they claim to be public in the media, and claim to be private in court.

I wish not only would troop only mb counselors not be allowed, but that counselors are forbidden from signing off for scouts in their own troop. The boys lose out on so many opportunities by having everything done "in house". I am almost certain this will never change.

I wish all people would show respect to others and treat them with kindness more than they do for symbols.

That is fantastic! I agree the old handbooks were much better written than the current. The inspiring prose is accentuated by providing specific examples for the boys. Both in story form, as a parable but also simple ideas of "how tos". The current books speak of ideas, with no practical application attached. Even if a boy wanted to do something, he has little to start with. But I digress. The collection you were gifted is certainly a treasure. One I am trying to build myself. Fortunately I already have a first edition I found at an estate sale among other old tattered books. I picked it up for 50 cents!

Not really. The "fair tax" is basically a national sales tax which would mean scouts would likely need to collect it based on sales, as the proposed "fair tax" in the early 2000s included food.

I would ask the adult who is questioning this whether the COH is for the scouts or for the parents since the only rationale given for interfering with what the scouts do is boredom for parents. This isn't to suggest that none of the other suggestions are bad, in fact I typically remind scouts that they are in charge and they have the power and authority to use the plan that has been used by others before them or change it.

My general reply is usually, "is this really a safety issue, or is someone just using safety as an excuse to interfere?"

I am not sure what you mean here. I am especially wary of an absolutist criteria since sales tax is governed by state and local law which can and do differ greatly.

I have seen "safety" as the excuse for adult interference taken to some ridiculous extremes. I am in no way suggesting this is the case for anyone here. Some extreme examples I have seen or heard in my past: 1. Adults must approve meal plans because proper nutrition is a matter of safety. 2. Adults will cook the food because they will follow safe food prep. 3. Scouts must camp close to the parking lot for emergency situations.

I also think the scouts should be doing the planning for the troop/patrol trips, and not the adult committees. I disagree that seeing is believing; doing isbelieving.

Deadlines and responsibility need not be a separate lesson just to avoid procrastination for the eagle award. These values can and should be part of the entire program as standard operating procedure. Jimmy doesn't sign up on time for the patrol campout, i guess he diesn't go. Timmy forgets to bring his medical form for the patrol swim, I guess he has to watch. Sounds harsh I know, but as long as adults keep bailing them out for the small things, they never need to be responsible or plan ahead. Then the big things they might miss out on. Better to miss a small thing and learn the value of responsibility and preparedness than miss out on something bigger later on.

And it gets even messier because of these "sales" even if for non-profits should be collected sales tax in many cases.

That is unfortunate. What is odd is how many businesses (big, small, non-profit...) fail to see how these types of partnerships are a benefit to their bottom line. Usually the small family owned businesses understand, because it is necessary for their survival.