Twocubdad

I think you're borrowing trouble. Get involved (beyond one committee meeting) before asking a lot of questions which may not be received very well. Take some time to get to know the individuals and how the pack operates before jumping in. There are many possible explainations for the fund balance, most of which include having a well-run, fiscally responsible pack committee. It seems to me your boys are in Scouting at very little cost. Pack dues of $30 is cheap. Except for the first year, 90% of your dues goes directly to national. Unless your council is especially generous, I think you're off on your popcorn allocations. Usually, another 10% goes toward the prizes the Scouts earn, so probably half of the pack's net is going into the boys' individual accounts. When I was chairman of the pack I received a call from the brand new treasurer that we had a problem. I assumed we were broke or something. No she said, we had $25,000 in the bank and was uncomfortable with that amount. The explaination was we were at the high point of our cash flow. We had collected dues from the boys but not yet paid recharter fees to the council. And we were in the middle of popcorn season and had thousands in gross receipts still in the checking account. You won't see that from atttending one committee meeting and seeing one month's treasurer report. Ultimately, we came to the conclusion that a reasonable fund balance was one year's worth of expenses. We figured we were one lousey Popcorn Colonel from being broke. That much cushion would allow us to maintain our program until we could reorganize the popcorn sales or find another fundraiser.

From the Troop Leader Guide, pg. 23: Activities Uniform The activities uniform for youth and leaders will be a jamboree T-shirt, Scout shorts or pants, Scout socks, and Scout visored cap or jamboree cap. Open-toed shoes are discouraged.

I'll honor Beavah's request to avoid psudo-legal debate, but I believe some councils have been subjected to federal investigations for registering "ghosts" scouts and paying their registration independently. I'm not suggesting the LDS church is doing anything illegal by registering all their boys in mass, but if it is wrong for a DE to go into a school and register all the students in mass, why is it okay for a chartered organization to do so? Maybe the church has good reasons for doing so, but when those ghost members show up on the council's roster, they're still being reported to show membership growth and to justify United Way funding, etc. Even if the church is justified in handling membership the way it does, BSA has an ethical obligation to maintain and report it's membership numbers accurately. Pretending it is an internal matter of a chartered organization doesn't change the ethical obligations. Here's a question on a different tact: Does anyone know who is on the National Committee and their affiliations? Granted, going through and identifying everyone by religion may seem a bit tacky, but I also think it reasonable to know how the various consituent groups are represented.

This is why I really don't care if our troop ever does a HA trip again. Want to go to Philmont? Great! The council sends several contingent crews ever year. Two years ago the crew almost fell apart three times. The shame of it was that when one kid dropped out and the crew size fell below the minimum, the kids who still wanted to go were placed in jeopardy of not going AND losing all their money. This year we implemented a policy that NO money is refundable until after the crew returns home from the trip. Then, any money remaining will be divided among the dropouts pro rated on what they paid in. That gives us the ability to spend YOUR money to help pay the way of your replacement. Our Number One priority is to preserve the crew. Getting you a refund is secondary. From da Beav's point of view of looking at this from a more principled perspective, I don't have a huge problem with drop outs on HA trips. I look at it as a escalating commitment. Philmont requires such a long lead time, it's tough for folks to anticipate things 18 months out. Peoples' lives change. I've had kids gun-ho for Philmont in October a year out who have dropped out of the troop two summers later. I have more of a problem with boys who blow off weekend campouts because they're calling for rain or because their running buds want to go to the movie Saturday night.

Sounds to me like the committee chairman is trying to hold the senior Patrol Leader to a higher standard than he is willing -- or able -- to meet himself. Is this something new which is being enforced? Or is this a new responsibility being added to the SPL's job description? Where is the Scoutmaster in all this? The SPL should be working through him. I would hope the SM would be trying the shield the SPL from this junk. Meeting with the troop committee and relaying the results and plans of the Patrol Leaders' Council is the job of the SM, not the SPL. I always ask new SPLs if they want to attend committee meetings and represent the PLC personally, but I've never had a taker. What's the SPL's opinion of the request? That you are posting it I assume it's a problems for him. Does he object to attending committee meetings, to having to produce a written report, or having to make a written report a month in advance? I think the SPL's role in this is to go to the SM and explain his position. The SM needs to represent the SPL to the committee and, frankly, back him up. Beyond that, my general operating principle is that problems with adults need to be solved by adults. The SPL doesn't need to get into a shoving match with the committee chairman. If the SM isn't going to tote water for the SPL, his parents should. The CC is really so worried the SPL is going to stump him he needs a full month to prepare? Jeeez.

Very, very timely topic for our troop right now. In the past, our troop has had a very strong connection with the OA. In the early '90s our troop basically ran the lodge with a string of lodge chiefs, Vigil Honors, nationally-ranked dancers and section officers. But by the time my older son crossed over six years ago that was long gone and there were no active Arrowmen in the troop. We just elected our fourth class of Scouts into the OA a couple weeks ago. I've been working for three years to try to get the OA some traction in our troop. It is very difficult and the OA doesn't do much to help. Here are some of the problems I see. Some may be local, some may be structural to the organization. Thus far, I've not really figure out what our Lodge DOES. It seems to be a big smoke grinder, consuming a lot of time and energy for no real benefit. Lots of time and effort into elections and ceremonies, but nothing after that. The big focus around fellowships is the spirit award. A good bit of energy is spent on nonsense stuff like costumes, decorations, color coordinated hats and making sure every brings their official lodge kan kozie to meals. I thought Scout Spirit is defined as living by the Oath and Law. What point of the Scout Law covers kan kozies? As a youth, involvement in OA was strictly service-related. Our district had three camporees a year and the OA was heavily involved in running them. We helped with parking, check-in, escorting troops to their campsites, building the council fire for Saturday night, ran a concession stand, etc. In my years in the OA, I only recall two events exclusively for OA members. OA doesnt do much service around here. Several years ago, I ran our district Cub-a-ree and had an unexpectedly large number of Cubs register to attend. I called the chapter advisor to ask if the OA could send a few guys Saturday morning to help with parking and was told their calendar was set a year in advance and wouldnt ask the chapter to do anything that wasnt already on the calendar. I will allow that I really dont know what happens at Lodge meetings. That seems to be a very tough circle to break into. I think that may be where the councils Good Ol Boy Club trains its youth members. Chapter meetings are excruciating. If our PLC meetings ran like this the troop would never have another program or campout ever. The chapter chief struggles to conduct the meeting from a printed agenda which is really just the standard meeting outline. The advisor does little to help the boy along. After allowing the boys to struggling for 20-30 minutes over what color kan kozie to order, some adult will chime in with a litany of problems with the decisions the boys made and the whole process starts over. Meanwhile I'm in the back of the room slitting my wrists..... At the troop level, adult leadership is my biggest problem. Apparently, we need to create a parallel troop leadership to accompany our OA members. And dont tell me its just three fellowship weekends a year. Someone has to take the OA Troop Rep to chapter meetings monthly. There are three Ordeal weekends a year and schedule-wise its looking like we have guys wanting/needing to go to all three. Lodge banquet, chapter fundraisers, etc. And that is just with basic membership, -- no ceremony team practices or running elections for other troops or things of that nature. I am the only adult OA member in the troop. The Lodge requires troops to send two-deep leadership to all activities (they'll fudge it to one leader and buddy you up when they get there.) They want the adults to be OA members, unless you have no other option. That's another issue. There seems to be a lot of "rules" they want you to follow, except when you really drill into it, they're not really rules, they're the rules people would make if they had the authority to make rules. Example: Everyone has to go through a Call Out ceremony. But our chapter call out is in February, so anyone elected after that has to go out of district. So your Scoutmaster spends four days and multiple emails and phone calls trying to find out info on the other districts Call Outs. When I mention my frustration to my buddy the Lodge professional advisor, he tells me it's not a requirement. (I will grant you that Call Outs at camporees can be cool for the candidates, who first learn of their election when their name is publicly called. But these chapter Call Outs are a waste of time. Everyone knows they've been elected otherwise they wouldn't be there. There is no real public recognition as everyone there is a participant. Rank and file Scouts see the whole Indian thing as pretty lame. Their only exposure to it are Call Outs (which seem to be conducted by the third-string ceremony teams) and some bozo showing up in a neon-orange cartoon head dress for elections. The actual Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies are quite good and my guys have been impressed, but that is because part of those ceremonies is explaining the significance of the Indian connections. Without that context, the Indian costumes come off as rather silly. I've had a number of guys decline nominations because of this. Question: did Native Americans really speak in monotones and Longfellow-esque tetrameter? Although the theory is noble, elections are popularity contests. I take seriously the "approval of your Scoutmaster" clause in the membership criteria, so every boy on our ballot is deserving of nominations, but almost every year there are boys who don't get elected who should. The pattern I've seen is these are usually the less popular, "uncool" guys who are really into Scouting and would enjoy and really take advantage of OA membership.

I'm paying a hefty sum for my two sons and myself to attend. $10 per day for visitors seems very reasonable. Anyone paid to go to a movie lately? How about the local theme park?

Normally wouldn't consider it, but since it is in troop's color scheme.... Works out to, what, about 75,000 boxes of butter lite?

"Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do. " I must have missed that part of training. Can you point to literature which supports that?

I agree. We have a dad -- an ASM at that -- who feels it's his job to keep things "light, fun and entertaining," by which he means don't always focus on this Scouting stuff all the time. A couple years ago he volunteered to put together a Jeopardy!-style game for TLT. One of the categories was titled "FUN STUFF" and was all answers and questions wholly unrelated to Scouting, popular music, movies, TV, video games and the like. I really got my knickers in a knot over that one. What kind of message is it when we advertise "Scout Stuff" vs. "Fun Stuff." From time to time I've had Scouts with the same attitude. I explain there are things we do as Scouts and particular ways we do them. The troop used to have "family campouts" which meant "bring your mother and let her powder your butt for you." No more. As a newbie SM I was twice convinced to allow campouts with no theme, purpose or planned activies. Those two weekends were the only time I've ever had to send a kid home -- idle hands and all. You want to hand out at the mall, go to a movie, eat Cheetos and PopTarts all weekend? Stay home and let your parents deal with you.

We've collapsed tents on guys any number of times. Works best if the tent is cold and dewy. A cup of cold water works for repeat offenders. I once had a mom complain that her son was being bullied when he slept late. Of course it wasn't his fault. His routine was to wake up, take his ADD/ADHD meds, then lie in bed 30-45 minutes until they kicked in. I explained to her that Scout camping was a group activity and the schedule was set by the group and her son was expected to adhere to the group schedule. As we don't have the leadership to supervise one boy dragging up an hour after the rest of the group. He either needed to conform or stay home. I suggested a reasonable accommodation would be for him to bring an alarm clock, set if for 45 minutes before wake up call so he could take his meds and be ready to go with the rest of the group. They've since moved on. Go figger.

I admit this has my Spidey Sense tingling, but I don't think it's time to fly in the team from Criminal Minds. I see a unit which is clearly struggling. Yes, there's not enough active adults for a legal unit committee, but there is only the minimum number of active youth for a legal unit, too. You don't have to be involved in new unit recruitment long to know there are more troops like this than you may imagine. But let's not necessarily assume the SM has nefarious intentions. I'm seeing a unit with five active boys and two active leaders. I wish 40% of the parents in my unit were active! I'm not a trained commissioner, but I would want to know which way this unit is heading. Does the SM have a plan to grow and add both youth and adults, or was at one time the unit larger will a full complement of leaders? Clearly you and the SM need a plan. Your District Commission and Executive are your resource. Helping units like yours is their job and they have a vested interest in saving and growing the unit. On the other hand, if the SM likes the current situation and doesn't want to fix the troop, Moosetracker has the right idea.

I can understand being in my skivvies, getting ready for bed, noticing some of the guys still around the fire and wandering back out. But to think through, plan and specifically ask permission to sit around the campfire in my boxers ..... that's just weird. It doesn't bother me that they are doing it, it's just weird to make it a planned activity.

Greaves is dead on. I would add is that BLs and pins are useful as something for the boy to earn as he goes along. It's nice to stand up and be recognized for something at most pack meetings. If the boy is blowing through all the BLs as a Tiger, he's going to have long, dry spells between rank advancements as a Wolf, Bear and Webelos. I would also expect over the next few years that quite a few den meeting, pack activities and summer camp programs are going to be built around earning BLs. Is their boy going to sit through those programs or is he going to cause a problem because he already has it? As to the money, that's no small matter. Our pack's policy was to give the boy the BL or pin only once. You can earn it mutiple times, but you only get one set of hardware. By Webelos the boys don't really care, but for a little guy, is he going to be unhappy is his whole den gets bling and he comes away empty-handed?

Please don't take offense, Gary. I have in no way suggested you don't respect other faiths; I'm simply saying you have a right to keep your own. My experience with the LDS units in my area is that they tend to be fairly exclusively LDS and and are very closely associated with their local wards. Maybe that's different in other parts of the country. Were I to join a LDS unit here I would expect to hear prayers in keeping with the LDS Church and to follow other practices and tradtions of the church. If I object to that, I would find another unit. I am only saying that is an acceptable way to operate a unit.

Been to a LDS troop meeting lately? How about the local Catholic Camporee? A chartered organization is fully within it's charter and the DRP if, at the outset, they say, "We are a (Christian/Jewish/Bhuddist/Druid/Rastafarian)organization and wish to limit membership in our units to Scouts of our faith. We expect our Scouts and leaders to follow the tenents of our faith, including attendance at services when appropriate." No one is forced to join that unit, but if you do so, you must adhere to the CO's wishes. It is also incumbent upon the CO to communicate that policy to perspective members. I don't know if this is the situation in pictak's unit or not. I rather doubt it. But I hold out the possibility that perhaps the unit was at one time a sectarian troop, but over the years has gotten away from that policy. Maybe now the SM is trying to redirect the unit and is just going about it poorly. More than likely he's just a strong-headed, my-way-or-the-highway kind of guy. I don't know which is why I ask. Look, I'm the LAST guy to force a Scout to attend a service contrary to his own faith. I got sideways with a camp director a couple years ago because the camp chaplain was a Evangelical Christian who insisted all his services and even graces before meals would be rather forcefully Christian. I spend a good bit of time working with our troop's Chaplain's Aide to make sure he understands that our Scouts' Own Services are inter-faith. In a strongly Bible-belt area (that is, New Testament Bible-belt area) we had a Jewish Chaplain's Aide a year or so ago. The fellow did a great job and I encouraged him to use Hebrew prayers from time to time, most of which work nicely in a Scout's Own service. Of course my Southern-Baptist district executive tells me I'm going to hell, but that's my cross to bear. But while I try diligently to make sure our troop is welcoming to our Scouts of different faith, I will just as strongly support another troop's right to practice their own faith within their unit, if that's what they choose to do.

From what I've read in the other threads, through membership loss and council mergers, the northeast region simply has more Scout camps than it can support or use. While that's not the situation in our area, I have a friend on the region camping committee. I've had a number of conversations with him and he believes some councils just should not be in the business of running camps. Much of it has to do with capital and operating resources, but also commitment. Some places just don't put a priority on summer camps. I'm sure lack of funding, maintenance, poor facilities and low attendance can be a downward spiral. But some councils just won't devote the time, money or attention camps require.

However, units may elect to limit membership to members of a particular faith. While it doesn't sound like that's the situation here, that's why I asked the question the way I did.

I think it would be instructive if we could learn more about the rational national provided for their decision, if any. If you go back to the early days of the thread, there was some fairly reasonable debate as to the merits of the appeal and a fair bit of speculation as to national's direction. I know this isn't like a Supreme Court decision, but if there is a lesson we could all apply moving forward, it's would be nice to learn what that is. I'd like to offer my best wishes and congratulations to Justin and his mom as well. Perserverance is not a bad lesson either.

Have you discussed your concerns with the SM? What did he say? Have you both trained to position? Does the SM understand the youth led method? Is he familiar with a Scouts' Own service? Does he not understand, or does he just choose to do things differently? Regarding church services, what is the position of your chartered organization? If you are a church-sponsored unit and the church wants the boys at their services, that is their call to make.

We do roast chicken pretty much as Gonzo does. One extra trick is to put a bed of cut up potatoes in the bottom of the oven to keep the chicken out of the grease. If you really want to be bad, the potatoes browned in the chicken fat are incredible. I like simple stuff best. Like baked apples. Core the apples. If you can drill out the core and leave the bottom intact, even better. Fill the cores with brown sugar, a couple shakes of cinnamon and a glob of butter. Bake until soft. Good stuff. If you get sloppy with the sugar, cinnamon and butter, that's okay. The stuff in the bottom of the pan is great on pancakes the next morning.

We're trained to never do anything for a boy he can't do for himself. But I think Oak Tree is on the right track. The adult leaders of the troop need to deal with the adult parents in the pack. I don't see that as a violation of the principle of Scout-led for a minute. There are things the Scouts need to do and there are things the adults need to do. This is an adult thing. You wrote, "Basically, it's very difficult for a boy-led, patrol-method, troop to compete with a polished, adult-led/recruiting organization. The issue is basically the message that is being promoted in the community. Adult-led is growing, exciting, dynamic, and well-run. Boy-led is dying out, disorganized, no opportunities, and the leaders don't know what they're doing. " That's right. Your problem is the perception the parent's have of a boy-led Scout troop. It is unlikely that your SPL is going to change that perception. He may be a great SPL but the Webelos parents still see him as a kid and they see you sitting in the corner, detached from the proceedings. They want to know that a responsible adult is in charge. Its scary enough to drop your child off with a coach or scout leader you dont know well, but youre telling them a 15-year-old is running things? From the point of view of a new parent, the stories being told about your troop probably appear to be accurate. I tell new parents our troop meetings are absolutely chaos when you walk in the door. But I also try to get them to look for and understand what the senior boys are doing. Thats difficult and Ive had parents pull their boys out of the troop because they just never see the patterns amid the chaos. If were lucky, after a year they start to catch on. One thing I think our troop does very well is our annual Webelos campout every fall. The boys put on a really good program introducing the Webelos to Boy Scouting. At the same time, the troop adults are leading the new parents through a similar introduction. We have a 90 minute classroom session we hold while the boys are on a hike and we will spend a fair bit of time with the adults just watching the Boy Scouts working with the Webelos. And we try to point our to the new parents when and how the troop leaders interact with the boys. Still, it takes about a year. I had a new dad last year who just would not leave the boys alone. He helped set up their tents, organized games, let them make phone calls on his phone (we dont allow boys to have phones on campouts) and would sneak snacks to them. And he wouldnt listen to me or any of the other adults to back off. YOURE NOT TELLING ME I CANT SPEND TIME WITH MY OWN SON! was his battle cry. This year, that same guy had two new parents off to one side explaining to them that the boy led system really works, but how tough it is for parents to step back. Wow! Things usually dont work that well! I dont think you should do anything directly about the other troops denigrating your troop. Unless you have them on tape or in writing, theyll just deny it. And a district executive or commissioner would have to be a moron to get involved between two troops like this. Rather, I think you YOU, the Scoutmaster need to do some politicking with your pack. Put yourself in situations where you can advocate for your troop. When the cub leaders start talking about camping, you chime in that you know the word on the street is that your troop never camps because you dont go to camporees, but your troop has a full plate of camping without the district activities. Your troop campouts are far better than those organized by the districts because...... Youve got a great program without the district events. Sell your program. I wouldn't mention the other troops.

"I'd say you're a little overschedled, especially this time of year." I won't disagree. But a number of things are beyond our control and several are things targeted for specific groups. My point is that if I'm disappointed with the attendance at any give event, I'm not considering the big picture. Of course expecting 100% attenance at every event.

Our troop is similar to yours and we're seeing the same thing. Our troop has also exploded in numbers and in the ratio of new boys. So we're trying to program to both the new and older Scouts. Consequently, here's a sample of our troop calendar: Last Saturday -- Day-long service project helping a local non-profit Last Sunday -- Eagle Court of Honor and Troop Committee Meeting Tonight -- PLC Next Weekend -- Philmont shakedown trip Next Saturday -- an outing with the local orienteering club and an Eagle project work day. Next Sunday -- A merit-badge related outing for guys 1C and up Following weekend -- troop campout Following Saturday -- OA callout Following Sunday -- Jamboree troops meet That's 13 activities in 16 days (counting Troop meetings). I can't think of another time when we've had so much going on. Although we're over 60 boys, we are spread pretty thin. Consider it growing pains, but we need to get a better handle on it. I think we need to do a better job of communicating to our Scouts and families that many of these programs are being offered on an ala carte basis. Clearly, some things are primary and some things are supplemental. Troop campouts are important. Philmont and Jamboree stuff is important to the guys going. Maybe we need to think more about the rest. We also need to do a reset on our attitude toward attendance at these things and be willing to pull the plug on activities that aren't attracting interest. Our Eagle candidates need to understand they can't automatically rely on 10 or 12 solid workers showing up just because they put out the call. They may need to look beyond the troop for help. One thought which occurs to me -- and thanks to this thread, I'll bring it up at PLC -- is to encourage patrols to adopt some of these activities as patrol activities. Our Eagles should make one of their work days just for the guys from their patrol. If the Aardvarks have several guys who need orienteering for First Class, they should adopt that trip a patrol outing. Maybe this isn't what's happening in your troop, soonerfan, but from here it's a good problem to have.

Unfortunately, changing the schedule is a problem. Our lodge likes to get this done early and we've already missed our district's two call outs. The guys will have to go out of distict for that. But would it be acceptable to have a ballot where you could vote "For," "Against" or "Don't Know" for each Scout separately? Several of the candidates are troop guides and I can see where the new guys would want to vote for them. Ultimately, I guess it's all a matter of what we work out with the election team.