Twocubdad

Seems like we have to deal with this sort of thing about every two years. We're due. The Scout in question is a notorious firebug. Always has to build a fire, even when there's no purpose and is always playing in it -- nothing as serious as this, but constantly poking and playing with burning sticks. I'm not sure I want to make a person responsible for teaching a topic where he has so clearly demonstrated a lack of responsibility. In the past we've none the Fire Safety MB thing, but the troop program theme for this month is fire safety, so earning the MB wouldn't require a whole lot of effort. We've previously require a 1000-word essay on fire safety and the effects of burns, including a interview with a professional who works with burn patients. We have discussed requiring a visit to a burn unit but felt it was a bit gawkish. The interview was a compromise. Before, we have also included some sort of suspension. In this situation a suspension would exclude the Scout from a Philmont trip in early June. I don't think anyone is advocating that. As is, the Scout was sent home early from the campout and not allowed to participate in any activities until he left. I'm leaning toward the essay and interview route again, with the added incentive that it must be completed and a presentation made to the full troop before he goes to Philmont. The presentation would be EXCRUCIATING for this particular fellow. And probably lifetime probation against similar behavior in the future. I sometimes wonder if any of this has any real impact on kids or if they just blow it off with a "whatever" and are greatful there weren't any real consequences.

What do you believe is an appropriate consequence for an older 15yo) Star scout who intentionally throws Coleman fuel on a roaring fire?

I had that question posed to me by a not-so-happy dad. Actually, it was more of a statement: "WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME HOW TO SPEND TIME WITH MY SON?!?" I wouldn't begin to presume to tell anyone that, nor would I deny a family a parent-child moment. I will, however, tell you if and how you are going to interact with a patrol. If I were an OA advisor, I would have no problem telling you if and how you'll observe OA activities. As a Scout leader, I'm concerned with more than just you and your kid. I'm concerned with the overall program we're delivering to all the boys. If you're in you son's patrol site, sneaking him snacks and fluffing up his sleeping bag (as the dad was just prior to the above "conversation"), then yes, I'll run your butt out. If you're on the perimeter of the OA circle, waving and yelling, "THAT'S MY BOY," you're gone from there too. You want a parent-child moment? Take him to Disney.

Our council is one which requires the fully-complete application to be submitted the day before the Scout's 18th DB. There are a number of other requirements added to the process -- additional paperwork, requirements for handling references, etc. -- which I don't believe are legitimate.

I suppose since today is the boy's birthday, the lot has been cast, but here's my two centsL Don't sign. My recollection is that there is no qualification as to what your signature indicates. The app doesn't say, "I certify the candidate is a registered member of this unit and all the administrative stuff is in order." It just generically asks for your signature which, to my thinking, is a generic endorsement of the whole. If you can't give that endorsement, don't sign. Personally, I would feel compelled to include a letter to the Scout explaining why. Yeah, that will probably just add gas to the fire, but I think it important. As Crew21 says, the kid may be a dud now, but maybe he will grow to be the man of character we hope for. That's less likely if his dad and the rest of the world keep making excuses and solving his problems for him. If you're going to make a stand on principle, make it meaningful. If you want this to be a wake up call for the lad, let him know why you're waking him up. I'd attach the letter to the application or otherwise make sure it gets to his Board of Review. Your reservations need to be part of the Board's deliberations. Here's another thought -- What does the rest of the troop committee think? Generally speaking, the committee chair doesn't have any singular power, but should represent the full troop committee. Is there a concensus? (But I also understand a lot of troops committees are rather adhoc and aren't really in a position to make these sorts of decisions.) Last, for heaven's sake, don't resign. This troop needs folks around who can fix this going forward.

DON'T IMHO, call outs, especially long boring ones, do more to damage the OA than anything else. Non-Arrowmen have no idea what the indian stuff is about. If you think about it, all the symbolism is explained during the Ordeal. To most of the rank and file, its just a boring ceremony by a bunch of guys in indian costumes speaking in really bad monotones. Personally, I thing the whole call out thing needs to be re-thought. I'd never do it on more than a troop level. On a camporee, send teams OA reps to each troop's campsite and recognize the new candidates in front of their troop (where it counts). Escourt them to a central location for a small reception and info meeting -- or, if you must, a more traditional OA ceremony.

Dont' know. But I raise a glass to honor the young men and women involved in the operation. Thank you! Sorry -- how the h**l do you double post nine hours later? This new IE upgrade really sucks.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Dont' know. But I raise a glass to honor the young men and women involved in the operation. Thank you!

It's a minor thing, but instead of bleach, try Sterimine tablets. Restaurants and commercial food processors use them. Put one or two in a gallon of water for your final rinse, then air dry. You can use the remaining solution to clean any tables or other surfaces. No ruined clothes from bleach, or potential burns from boiling water. Online for about $5 per bottle of 150 tablets at http://www.webstaurantstore.com/edwards-councilor-steramine-sanitizing-tablets-sanitab-150-bottle/999TABS.html or just Google Sterimine. Instead of patrols taking the whole bottle on campouts, get a few large pill bottles from the local pharmacy and only take enough for the campout. That way if someone leaves them out in the rain you only ruin a few.

So, E92, clarify for me -- if we created a ballot on which Scouts could vote For, Against or Abstain, then a Scout would simply need more For votes than Against votes? Abstain are disregarded? The way it has been explained to us is that we must have a simple quorum of the troop present and Scouts must receive a simple majority of the votes. Based on that, Abstain counts against a candidate. We usually try to have our OA elections in Jan. or Feb., before the new Scouts cross over, which solves the problem. When that's not possible, based on the voting rules we've been given, we explain to the new Scouts that, if the don't know a Scout well, the should vote FOR them. Of course, if the know the candidate and think he's a jerk, then they can certainly vote no. Yeah, with a lot of new guys in the troop, it skews the results toward yes votes, but I'd rather unfairly elect guys that to unfairly keep them out.

So, E92, clarify for me -- if we created a ballot on which Scouts could vote For, Against or Abstain, then a Scout would simply need more For votes than Against votes? Abstain are disregarded? The way it has been explained to us is that we must have a simple quorum of the troop present and Scouts must receive a simple majority of the votes. Based on that, Abstain counts against a candidate. We usually try to have our OA elections in Jan. or Feb., before the new Scouts cross over, which solves the problem. When that's not possible, based on the voting rules we've been given, we explain to the new Scouts that, if the don't know a Scout well, the should vote FOR them. Of course, if the know the candidate and think he's a jerk, then they can certainly vote no. Yeah, with a lot of new guys in the troop, it skews the results toward yes votes, but I'd rather unfairly elect guys that to unfairly keep them out.

So, E92, clarify for me -- if we created a ballot on which Scouts could vote For, Against or Abstain, then a Scout would simply need more For votes than Against votes? Abstain are disregarded? The way it has been explained to us is that we must have a simple quorum of the troop present and Scouts must receive a simple majority of the votes. Based on that, Abstain counts against a candidate. We usually try to have our OA elections in Jan. or Feb., before the new Scouts cross over, which solves the problem. When that's not possible, based on the voting rules we've been given, we explain to the new Scouts that, if the don't know a Scout well, the should vote FOR them. Of course, if the know the candidate and think he's a jerk, then they can certainly vote no. Yeah, with a lot of new guys in the troop, it skews the results toward yes votes, but I'd rather unfairly elect guys that to unfairly keep them out.

My cousin and five very, very close friends rode out one of the Raleigh tornados in a bathtub. Took out the house one away but not where she was. Ya never know....

Hate that Grannie is doing poorly, but with any luck at all, this whole thing can just slide until September. You'll be surprise at how much growing-up a boy can do in six months.

I'll note that the requirement doesn't require identification at all, although I'd make it one of those non-required, value-added things a good counselor will throw in. Two resources for you, NC: Forest Plants of the Southeast, by James Miller & Karl Miller, Univ. of GA Press. and Common Forest Trees of North Carolina, published by the NC Div. Forest Resources. If you tell them it's for the scouts, they'll send you a stack for free. I like them because they're geo-specific and don't try to go overboard with every last ultra-rare species. I hate spending 30 minutes poring over a guidebook, settling on an identification of something only to read further that it's only native to the Mongolian Steppes. The tree book is particularly easy to use and Scout-friendly.

From BS-87: "You are entitled to the opinion that the 14th amendment limits the categories of citizenship to "natural born" and "naturalized". It also happens to be the belief held by the SCOTUS for the time being." While it's been 30 years since I sat through Constitutional Law class, I recall that a Supreme Court Ruling trumps the unwritten intent of the framers and prior common law. This then becomes a moot point, right? From BadenP: "you are just plain WRONG, and are starting to sound like a broken record" Hmmmm.... You should re-read your last few posts and listen to what they sound like. From my own post, about a week ago: "Why doesn't Obama just post his birth certificate and be done with it?" Okay, done.

Oh for God's sake. If the Scout had stabbed someone, would you be charged with theft for taking away the knife? If there is a suspicion a Scout is taking obscene photos can anyone think of a justification for not allowing him to keep the camera? Anyone?

I don't disagree OT. If tomorrow national eliminates adult age requirements entirely, I'm not going to get too wound up -- as long as COs have the ability to exceed the national requirement. But what if they did? Don't you think those 20yo "acting" SMs would be come 17yo "acting" SM? Don't you think those committees which now go the extra mile to find an older, qualified SM would shrug their shoulders and just go with the 18yo? I really don't know how the program would be affected, but I can see good and bad things coming of it. I suppose that should tell us the rule of Unintended Consequences will go into overdrive.

Beav writes, ... odds are that a 19- or 20-year-old SM is goin' to be someone like MtIB, eh? A boy who has grown up through the troop whom everybody knows ... Not true. One of the relationship issues I'm dealing with is that after six years as SM, none of the new Scouts or their families know me. They're coming into a troop with a leader they've never worked with before. Until now, the new Scouts coming into to troop knew me as the Cubmaster their Tiger year, if not longer. I was the guy at School Night Roundup, the fellow who guided the parents through orientation, organized their first Cub camping trips and was director of the district day camp. It was a long time ago, but there is still a basis of trust and a relationship there. Now, so long removed from the pack, I no longer have those relationships with incoming families to build on. And an 18yo SM would be in the same positions. While neither of us have personal relationships to fall back on, I do have something an 18yo can't have -- experience. All those knots and do-dads may not be worth a pitcher of warm spit, but they are a walking resume. I've taken every pertinent training course available to me and taught many of them. The district trusted me to run their day camp. The council trusted me to take a troop to jamboree. Region trusts me to teach at National Camp School. I've been responsible for the troop at summer camp seven times. I can count on one hand the campouts I've missed. I've dealt with homesick kids. I've taken boys to the ER. I've raised two sons. IT AIN'T MY FIRST RODEO and the parents understand and appreciate. That 18yo couldn't possibly have those bonafides. That may not matter. I may still be the biggest dolt in the county, but after seven years, chances are I'd have been found out. No one's tested the 18yo yet. Not as a Scoutmaster, not as an ASM. Daddy always said never buy the first model year of anything. And rational or not, parents are going to look at a 18yo in that light. Sure, I understand the experience and skills of a good Eagle Scout. But new parents don't. The toughest sell we make every year is selling new parents on youth leadership. I would be comfortable with a fellow like MIB taking the troop for a weekend. Shoot--pair him up with some do-nothing dad and you're legal. But even in our troop, my experience shows there will be parents who will keep their boys home that weekend. And again, you're argument of prejudice fails your own relevance test. Race and gender are not relevant to SM performance. Experience and maturity are -- at least they are when we're talking about someone turning their son over to you for the weekend. Listen, big picture, I agree with you. In particular, I don't understand why ASM is different than a committee member. BSA does a terrible job with young adults. Not just 18-20, but through Tiger-age parents. At World Jamboree I saw a young, 20-something couple in uniform with a year-or-two-old kid in a stroller -- also in uniform! How cute was that! But importantly, the UK Scouts had a program which cemented the relationship with that family YEARS before their child was old enough for Beavers/Tigers. We slam the door on 18yo Scouts then offer them lame stuff like college reserves and Chi Rho (do I have that right?). Venturing somehow misses the mark, but putting kids in top-level positions of responsiblity for units isn't the answer either.

This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous and back a couple times now.... actually it hasn't been sublime in a few pages now, but..... You all have completely ignore to elephant in the room. Parents. You're telling me parents will not take issue with an 18-year-old as THE unit leader? You've ignored the whole emotional response of parents being asked to send their kids off into the wilderness for days with another kid. All your rational, reasoned arguments will go right out the window when the parents show up for a weekender and no one on the trip shaves regularly. Look, I'm over 50 and have been a Scout leader for nearly 15 years. We typically travel with a half-dozen ASMs who aren't far behind me in age and experience, and a few ahead. Yet we constantly deal with parents who are afraid to sent Sweet Little Thing out with us. Every year we have at least one new scout dad go camping with us with no interest in becoming an ASM or helping with the program. Sooner or later it comes out that he's there only because his wife won't let their Scout go without him. Do you really believe a 19yo SM with 6 months time in position will allay those parents' fears? Last fall, we planned a campout at our Scout reservation where the adults would camp in our regular campsite but the patrols would fan out to the far corners of the camp, some a mile or two away. Holy Smokes! I can't tell you how many parents I had to talk down off the ledge. We were on Scout property with all the usual security and support, our usual complement of adults were still in camp just a little further away than usual, and we allowed the PLs to take cell phones for emergency communications (plus all the guys who smuggle them in anyway.) And still, we had a much smaller than usual turn out. I think you're all under-estimating the nervous-nelly parents. Secondly is the ability of an 18yo to handle difficult parents. I've had numerous moms leave Scoutmaster conferences crying. I had one dad get off work early just to come tell me how big a son-of-a- **** I am. I've discussed serious youth protection issues with parents. I don't know many 18-19yos who have the chutzpah to go toe-to-toe with difficult parents. Those who do, don't have the maturity to do so tactfully and guide the parent to the desired understanding. Okay, let's look at the other side: 1 -- the parents are just prejudiced against young people. That's correct but irrelevant. The basis for the parents' decisions is not within our control or necessarily rational. That's just a given we must deal with. 2 -- "But 'Our' 19yo SM is exceptional and works well with the parents." Is it really useful to debate the far bottom corners of the bell curve? From a national policy point of view, does this come up often enough to warrant a new set of procedures for managing these exceptions? Interestingly, in nine years on these boards, I don't recall this coming up before. 3 -- But with a supportive committee and committed ASM, a very young SM can succeed. If you have such a great friggin' troop, why is there no better sucession plan that to go with a 18yo SM? 4 -- Everywhere else in the world 18-24yo Rovers run Scout troops. No, not really. Rovers don't run Scout troops in the way a BSA Scoutmaster does. They operate under the aegis of a Scout Group. But that's a whole 'nother thread. It's not really related to my point about parents, but all the discussion about 18yo EMTs and teachers is irrelevant, too. Beav's example that excluding females from combat is irrelevant to a discussion of females in engineering school is on point. Gender is not the relevant issue, just as age is not the relevant issue between Scoutmasters, teachers, EMTs and firefighters. The relevant issue is the totallity of the circumstances in which they may find themselves. A more fitting comparison would be between a Scoutmaster and principal. Edited to add: If somewhere on the far corners of the bell curve there is a troop situation and an 18yo Scout who would be the best candidate for SM, I honestly don't have a problem with it. I'm generally in favor of greater local control within the BSA anyway. But I frankly have a hard time envisioning a unit in which that would be the case. I absolutely would NOT support the appointment of a very young SM unless the troop's situation was such that he would be successful. Throwing a young man to the wolves in a weak or embattled unit is wrong on many levels. I would think in most cases it would be better to let the unit fold and find other troops for the boys. But if you have a strong unit with lots of support for the SM young or old, then why don't you have other options? To me the one factor is in inverse relation to the other. Unless you're just playing games with job titles with a young "Scoutmaster" and folks behind the scenes with the real power and control. But that's just baloney too.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

The only paperwork you need is a Boy Scout youth application. Treat their registration as a transfer and be sure to include the boy's BSA ID numbers so their Scoutnet records will follow them. The transfer fee is only $1.00 and covers them through the next recharter. Of course the troop may have additional paperwork and dues, but that's on their side of the bridge. (so is the application, for that matter. The pack really has nothing to do with it.) FYI, conventional wisdom is for the Webs to join the troop sometime in the February-March time frame. The main purpose being that the Webs get a chance to meet the boys and leaders in the troop and get a couple of campouts under their belts before taking off for summer camp for a week. It's not a policy and there are a lot of troops who don't do so, but that something to consider for the coming class of scouts.

Sooner or later you have to figure the guys on the other side of the ball are getting paid too. The ONLY reason they're spending time, money and effort on this junk is for the profit potential. One of the digs against Supply division is they've hired a bunch of retail merchandising folks who have no real understanding of the BSA program. Witness: all the uniform and program gaffs which show up in catalog photos. My underlying assumption is they're making a boat-load of money on this crap, otherwise they'd never touch it. I rather imagine folks in meetings at supply grumbling about how much money they loose having to devote retail space to all these low margin badges and books....

Sit down with the Scoutmaster and WDL and ask, "what can we do to make sure that all the current Webelos are active, enthuasiastic Scouts a year from now?" The answer to that question is your protocol A few things you can do: -- Make sure your Webelos Is are going to Web resident camp this summer. -- Make sure your WDL haven't gone ROAD on you (retired on active duty, aka asleep at the switch or burned out). Do they have an active, engaging plan for the W2 year? Do they have any den campouts planned? -- Work with the SM to recruit den chiefs for the W2 den. Ideally, they should be their troop guide when they join the troop. -- Schedule now at least one joint Webelos/Troop campout. We try to do ours in November, after fall sports but before it gets too cold. Ditto for a troop meeting open house. -- Does the troop have a orientation plan for the parents? They need one. I always say the transition to the troop is harder on parents than the boys. (This ought to be offered by national). I've posted this many times before, that I believe part of the reason for the loss of boys between Webelos and Boy Scouts is that we make such a big deal it being the "end of your Cub Scout career" and AOL "the pinnical of Cub Scouting". At the same time, boys are coming to the age where they have the ability to objectively judge their own abilities, likes and dislikes. "I'm really good at math, but suck as baseball." "I really like tiddly-winks but hate camping." So right about the time boys are beginning to pick and choose what the do and don't like, we light up this HUGE exit sign at the other end of the crossover bridge. Personally I would like to see crossover take the entire year. Have the Webelos IIs dens start meeting the same time and place as the troop, but with separate programs. Maybe they do joint opening ceremonies. When they begin to plan for a Webelos/troop campout, the future troop guides attend the Webelos side of the meeting and teach the Webs what they need to bring and how to pack. By December, the Boy Scouts should be running the Webelos meetings totally. Through the months the Webs spend more and more time with the Boy Scouts. Before anyone notices they're just all part of the troop, and their old Cubmaster shows up with certificates and shakes everone's hand.... Of course, when I try to sell this to Webelos leaders and parents, they get all sanguine and weepy-eyed. "They've been together since they were Tigers now and we just want to have our last few months...." as their lip quivvers and their voice trails off. It's the parents who want all the Blue & Gold/crossover hoopla. I don't doubt that in an existing pack that pulls all the stops for crossover, the boys have an expectation of a big "look at me" event and will be disappointed if they don't get their turn. Which is why -- with a clean slate -- you have such a great opportunity to get it right!

11x17 tent? Ya think he's trying to compensate for something?

I am registered with Bugles Across America, but have never had the opportunity to play. We've had a couple troop buglers I've encouraged to register, although I don't think any have. But a question -- would it be appropriate for a Scout -- or me for that matter -- to wear a Scout uniform to the service?