Twocubdad

You're CC/COR right? It is within your authority to set the standards for how the unit operates. Obviously good leadership and management require more than imperial fiat, so how do you implement the needed changes? Of course you have to decide what sort of troop you want. Over the years we've rather settled on a policy that we don't worry too much about elective MBs. Part of the MB program is for Scouts to get a taste of a wide variety of careers and hobbies. If kids blow through a whole bunch of elective MBs, I don't get too torqued over it. After three years at summer camp and with little effort, boys easily have all the elective MBs they need for Eagle anyway. However, we hold their feet to the fire on required MBs. No parents as counselors (we have multiple counselors for all required MBs). Counselors are trained that they should meet with Scouts at least twice -- no showing up once with a stack of paperwork and expecting a sign-off. The idea is we expect the Scouts to work WITH the counselor to LEARN the material. The counselors are expected to do more than just grade papers. The whole adult association thing, you know. While it is technically improper to retest once a counselor has signed-off on a merit badge, I do sympathize with your advancement chairman. I have never had a Scout earn First Aid at summer camp and come home having really learned the material. Our thought was to allow Scouts to "audit" the MB class at summer camp, but to issue a blue card for a home counselor. Essentially we would do the same thing your guy is doing, except we would be clear with the Scout up front that he would have to complete the badge after camp. (We never implemented this idea as we now have a counselor who teaches the MB start to finish every years.) But again, if you're CC the AC works for you. If you don't want him to retest the MBs, talk with him. Everything else is up to the Scoutmaster to enforce. Blancemange is correct that the SM should simply refuse to issue the Scout a blue card with his dad as counselor. I also think you are justified in a troop policy limiting adults to counseling a limited number of MBs or to limit the number of MBs a Scout may earn with one counselor. It's also up to the SM to manage the camping program. I know a lot of troops work on the principle that youth=SM, adults=CC so he may be looking to you for help with the dad. The best approach would be for both of you -- the COR/CC/SM combo should be fairly authoritative -- and let the dad know where the limits are on campouts. The best solution would be for the dad to stay home the next couple trips, short of that he needs to stay the heck out of the patrol campsites, period. But keep the conversation friendly. Appeal to the guy's sense of what's right for his son. If he's homeschooling 10:1 a big reason for Scouting is to expose his son to other people and boy is he fouling that up. Help him see what his son can gain if he backs off.

Nah, FScouter. Back to Hawkrod's rube neighbor showing up in jeans and a tee. You're polite and accepting while he's there, but that doesn't mean you can't talk bad about him after he leaves! Seriously, our troop is usually pretty tight when it comes to uniform. Full field uniform when appropriate, including troop hat and necker. Invariably, there will be some troop at summer camp showing up for evening retreat with their Scout shirts unbuttoned and untucked over a dirty t-shirt and plaid shorts. Those are the teaching moments I look for. Even the coolest of the too-cool-for-school crowd has to take a bit of pride in how our troop looks versus the guys who look like they fell out the back of Jeff Spicoli's van. The number of compliments we get from other leaders and camp staff doesn't hurt. While I would never do it in such a way it seems like I'm calling out or making fun of another troop, at another time I will remind out Scout of the sense of pride and unity we gain by looking like a troop. If the SM is concerned the OA e-team's appearance undermines the troop efforts, it would be appropriate to address during the following week's Scoutmaster Minute or perhaps through the SPL and PLC. But I wouldn't do it if it weren't a positive thing, without pointing fingers or disparaging others. Brent -- I don't go to restaurants like that either.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Blame it all on my roots, I showed up in boots, and ruined your black-tie affair.... Hawk, unless you're hosting a bridal shower for Andrew and Kate, I still can't imagine sending a guest away, or hauling them upstairs to look for something to change into. If some schlub shows up for a white-tie formal in ripped jeans and an AC/DC tee shirt, the poor reflection is on him, not the host. Asking him to leave would be a poorer reflection on the host than having him stay, in my opinion. As to hired help, in the first place, I do not equate the e-team with hired staff for the very obvious reason that they aren't paid. But more to the point, if my paid caterer sends casually-dressed staff to my formal party, my beef is with the caterer, not his staff. Yes, I'm probably going to hit the ceiling and raise all sorts of cain with the caterer, but that goes back to the first point -- in this case I AM paying for formally-dressed servers and expect to get what I paid for. Still, there is no need for me to take it out on a bunch of $6-per-hour servers. They, like the OA election team, were doing what they were instructed to do, or what they failed to be instructed to do, as the case may be. Although I don't think it appropriate, if it's a deal-breaker for you, take the e-team outside and let them know that as a matter of principle you cannot let them represent the OA before your troop in less than full uniform. You can reschedule the election another time when they are in full uniform. Of course that other time may be a really, really cold day, but that's the cost of standing by your principle. As far as the slow degradation of standards, I don't disagree with you. But I have to ask which standard is more important -- A Scout is Courteous or A Scout Wears Official Pants? The key is in how you go about enforcing the standard. There is a process here. It would have been absolutely appropriate for the SM to rip the e-team on his evaluation or the call the lodge/chapter advisor and share his complaint there. And next year, when the troop schedules the election, the VC-Elections should be reminded the troop expects the team to be in full uniform. If not, meet them at the door and reschedule. And -- by the way -- the second time your schlub neighbor show up in the AC/DC tee, he's doing it on purpose and you're justified in giving him the boot. I would also ask you to think about which standards

Blue jeans with a Scout shirt makes me absolutely insane. However... The Scouts were doing what they had been taught to do. Frankly, artjrk, I don't care for your troop's intrepretation of the Uniform method. But then, the OA advisors and/or lodge officers should have included in e-team training something about uniform standards. The SMs were totally out of line, including the guy who asked the boys to change. They were guests of the troop. Would you embarass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner? There are untolled ways in which this could have been handled more appropriately, including using the evaluation sheet e-teams give the SM at the end of every election.

I've never seen it specified. Back when I was first pack CC and in search of good campsites for a big pack, I first asked for the council's list of approved campsites. "What list?" When I asked for the inspection sheet, I had to provide the BIN number so they could order them from national(this was before everything was online). Somewhere, if some council camping committee has decided to get froggy and wants to inspect campsites, then they may. But my impression is this is so far down the list of priorities it rarely sees much action.

Roger that, OakTree. I was in the council office once watching the lady behind the counter "approve" a stack of tour permits, stamp-stamp, stamp-stamp, stamp-stamp. I said, "You know, I bet I could submit a tour permit listing our destination as Hell and you'd approve it." She stopped her rubber-stamping, thought for a minute, and said, yep, you're probably right. ----------- Not all councils keep such lists. Ours doesn't.

I don't understand the rationale behind how you would respond, SP, but if I ask about a transferring Scout and you tell me he was expelled, the troop has sealed his records and refer all other questions to the council, I'm not going within 100 miles of this boy! Are you kidding me? First of all, I can only imagine what levels of hell this kid has dragged your troop through. Secondly, you make it sound like six lawsuits waiting to happen. I guess I don't see the firewall between units maybe other folks do. Within out troop, we have a written policy that information will be shared with other leaders on a need-to-know basis, but there is a very broad need to know. We never know which leaders will be around when an issue (medical, discipline, behavioral or otherwise) arises, so we want all our leaders aware of what's going on with a Scout. I don't see a whole lot of difference between an ASM in our troop and the SM of the one down the street.

How do you wear it on your uniform? Proudly.

One of the very first things taught at National Camping School is that "day camp is the camp that comes to the boys." If your district or council thinks they can only offer day camps on council-owned property, -- well, they don't really think that -- they may want YOU to think that. No one running a day camp can possibly complete the required training and not understand that. If your parents are bucking at the distance to the district day camp, you need to be talking with your district camping, program or Cub Scout chairman. There are numerous solutions to provide a day camp experience to far-flung packs. One method is "caravan camp," in which the council has the equipment and materials for a day camp packed into a truck or trailer and hauls everything to the day camp location. Another trick is "twilight camp" which typically runs from late afternoon until dark, which makes it more avaiable to working parents. Of course, many of these methods include heavy participation from the pack parents to implement. Generally, the core day camp staff will be through the district or council, but depending on the program all other volunteers can come from the pack or several nearby packs. The camp director and program director must have completed the Cub Scout Day Camp section of National Camping School, a three day course. If you have swimming or boating, your Aquatics Director must have completed aquatics school (four or six days). Starting a camp is absolutely doable -- but you have to be willing to do it. If your parents have the attitude that "SOMEBODY OUGHTTA...." it won't happen.

Our council can't track Webelos moving from Pack 1 to Troop 1. It is not remotely possible that seven months later someone at the council office will catch a application from a Scout expelled from one unit registering for another. If someone has knowledge of a system which tracks discipline issues -- other than those fully banned from the program -- please enlighten me. Besides, who is "The Council." Aren't we "The Council." Didn't BSA loose an $18 million judgement last summer because the minister of a chartered organization -- clearly in his role as minister -- decided to give a Scout volunteer a second chance? I'd hate to have that jury and try to explain that I had no responsibility to share the information I had with the new troop. That case was up your way, wasn't it SP? When a Scout transfers to our troop, I do as HICO describes. I ask transferring-in Scouts why they are changing troops and forewarn them I'll be talking to their old Scoutmaster, too. And I usually follow through. As much as anything, I consider it a courtesy to let the old SM know the Scout has moved on (it is disappointing how few boys will extend that courtesy themselves). I also ask the SM, "is there anything I need to know about the situation?" I don't understand the concern that we're creating a bias against a Scout in the new unit. The bias was not created by the sharing of information, the bias was created by the Scout's behavior. I'm all for second chances when the offending individual makes amends for his earlier bad behavior and demonstrates a willingness and ability to change. Absent such a change, giving someone a second chance is just that -- a chance. I want more than a chance things will go better the second time around. But to the point, I am unwilling to dump this chance off on another unit, who may or may not know they are taking a chance. If the boy has really turned himself around, if the therapy has worked and he is due a second "opportunity", then let's put it all on the table and make an informed decision. In the end, I suppose my judgement is I owe a greater duty to the numbers of Scouts and Scouters in another unit that I do to one individual Scout.

I suppose I'm in the minority here. I believe we have an obligation to our fellow Scouters to share what we know. Perhaps the boy deserves a second chance. But the other troop deserves full disclosure. Is the Scout's Troopmaster records complete? Meaning, does it include an objective report of the circumstances of the Scout being expelled from the troop. I would simply honor the mother's request.

Ask your district executive (probably the guy telling you you have to have five scouts) for a list of all the boys who have dropped out of Cub Scouts in the past 2 or 3 years. Look for the ones who are now over age 11 and give them a call. Sometimes boys who are really into outdoors stuff drop out of Cubs because what the really want is a Boy Scout program. Maybe you can convince a couple boys to give Boy Scouts a try.

Hey BD -- what Scoutfish said. Hang in there. Don't forget the other boys in the troop.

> I'm thinking, "Pee break, Boss?" will come in handy too.

Have I ever been in a Scout troop where everyone followed the Scout Oath and Law? No. Have I ever been in a church where everyone followed the Ten Commandments and Golden Rule? No. Have I ever lived in a community where everyone followed all the laws? No. Something you will gain with maturity is the ability to see shades of grey. Striving for an ideal but coming up short is not a failure since there was never a chance of reaching the ideal. That's why they are "ideals." There is honor in believing in an ideal and trying to reach it. Young people, and I'm guessing you're +/- 16, don't see shades of grey well. It's black or white. Either you're obedient or not; reverent or not. Reciting the Scout Law, but then driving 60 in a 55 or swearing when you crack your shin is seen as hypocrisy. It's not, it's just being human. Teenagers also tend to believe the world revolves around them, as in, "I am glad I gave you guys something to talk about." You may want to note that we were well over 300,000 threads before you got here. Yeah, poking the adults is a lot of fun. Been there, done that myself. Of course we only had flint tools and stick to poke them with. Be forewarned now you're old enough to get poked back. Welcome the the adult campfire, fermi. Afterall, this is ScoutER.com, not Scout.com. We occasionally have youth members wander through. We try to keep the conversation Scout-like and kid friendly. Unfortunately, that, too, is an ideal. You may want to re-read the my comments on striving for ideals. And we're going to ask the same courtesy and respect from you which expect of each other. If you have questions, ask. If you have a point, make it. But if all you want is to be a troll, you may want to move along.

I thought I understood early in the thread that BD and the SM were together on this. Otherwise we usually go through about a half-page of chain-of-command posts. As an SM I would appreciate an ASM willing to take point on a problem of this magnitude. I don't spend a lot of time worrying with the org chart.

So Beavah, when you're representing me because I let a Scout ride in the back of my pickup and he bounced out and cracked his skull open, you're going to argue Pirate Law? "Ahhhhh, it's more of a guideline..."

"You know dad, my senior project is just like my Eagle project. All the stuff I learned for my Eagle project, I have to do for my senior project. You have to plan everything, figure out a schedule, the stuff you need, who you need to help. Then as soon as you start all your plans change and you have to do that 'analyze, adapt, overcome' stuff your always talking about." --- OneCubSon

We figured out several years ago the motivation of stopping at a country store on the way home. At the campfire Saturday night we would announce the drop-dead, going-down-the-road, bug-hitting-windshield depature time. The boys almost always complied. Only two problems are the close-in campouts where there isn't a good store between here and there, and that the adults, who like their big chuck boxes and bigger breakfasts, are as often as not the ones late packing. My experience is there are two types of boys here. Okay, three, but the third are the ones on medication who are either waiting for their morning meds to kick in or their evening meds to wear off. But that's another thread. Some kids are simply unaccustomed to putting themselves out and doing things which may be difficult or uncomfortable, like getting out of the sack on a cold morning and starting a fire. They're either spoiled and pampered or just lazy. Typically, those boys will respond to leadership, motivation and positive peer pressure. They want to be a part of the team and be seen in a good light. They either don't know how or don't know what is expected of them. But they're trainable. The other type of kid is the one who doesn't want to be there in the first place. He's in Scouting because mommy and daddy make him. Being a horse's puttut (sp?) is his way of letting everyone know he doesn't want to be there and/or is above it all. They are difficult to lead and motivate because they see leadership and motivation as another opportunity to rebel. They may catch the spark and turn around, or they may finally wear down their parents, or do something so stupid they're asked to leave. You have to hope it doesn't come to that. No one wants to hear this, and I write it in fear of the PC-police kicking in my door, but the herd (patrol) will eventually take care of itself. The other boys in the patrol will put up with a slackard for only so long. The other Scout may take his turn cooking breakfast, washing dishes or packing his gear a couple times, but not forever. And I don't think they should. Cheerful Service and Service Leadership doesn't mean being someone's punk. Remember the 13th point of the Scout Law -- A Scout is No Fool. Adult leaders need to be careful to make sure the peer pressure is positive and not negative. It takes a very delicate touch by the leadership to make sure socialization doesn't cross the line into hazing.

Hate to be a wet blanket, but.... Guide to Safe Scouting http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf Page 33, "Unauthorized and Restricted Activities" 6. Fireworks secured, used, or displayed in conjunction with program and activities is unauthorized except where the fireworks display is conducted under the auspices of a certified or licensed fireworks control expert. 7. The selling of fireworks as a fund-raising or money earning activity by any group acting for or on behalf of members, units, or districts may not be authorized by councils. I believe similar language is on the Unit Money-Earning Applications, however the online version I found doesn't not include page two where the restrictions are found.

I'm all for reasonable accommodation, SP, but this is intolerably beyond the pale. We have had Scouts with serious developmental disabilities whose parents attended every campout, but have never had a parent this meddlesome. BD, I hope nothing I've written has been read as critical of your unit leaders. I think most of us try to be accommodating and work with Scouts and parents, especially new Scouts, and sometimes give a little more than we should. It seems to me this dad has taken advantage of the lattitude he has been afforded. But now the unit leaders see where where the situation landed, they must act decisively for the benefit of the troop.

This isn't an advancement issue, so don't play the game of parsing requirements. That is immaterial. This is an issue of what kind of troop you want to have. Don't argue the requirements. Don't argue what's in the handbook. Don't argue what someone at council said. This is about how the troop is going to operate and the vision the leaders have for the program offered to the Scouts. If this family doesn't share that vision, they are perfectly free to find another troop which shares their view of the world. I dont' think you need to kick the kid out of the troop. My guess is when you lay down the law, they'll move on. And by the way, I do like Moose's idea of meeting first with the parents. Although the kid may have a snit if required to camp with his patrol, at root this is an adult problem. If it gets ugly, the kid doesn't need to watch. Or maybe they decide to move on without a fuss. Or maybe they say, "Oh thank you! Anything you can do to help us cut the apron strings will be great!" But I wouldn't really hold my breath waiting for that one. Edited part -- listen to what Calico's posted. He's on the right track.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

No more calls, please, we have a winner. Cross your eyes and dot your tees, 'cause it may get ugly. I would suggest the SM and CC sit with the Scout and dad and give them the new marching orders. Have a letter prepared which lines in plain language the troops expectations, including a hard deadline for the behavior to change (yesterday) and a statement that failure to comply will result in removal from the unit. Make sure your COR and IH are on board. Here I'd give my DE a heads-up, too, in case he gets a call. This is a cancer in the troop. Removing it will be painful, but better done now rather than later.

Sounds like my old Scoutmaster too. Any time someone asks why I am a Scout volunteer, I tell them I have three reasons; One is "OneCubSon" an Eagle Scout now checking the mailbox every day for college acceptance letters. Second reason is "TwoCubSon", a Life Scout who recently finished a year as SPL and is raising money to pay for an Eagle project. The third reason is Mr. H, because he did it for me.

The eagle mills don't impose their methods on the patrol method troops and vice versa. No, no one is showing up at Roundtable demanding that my troop sbag patrol activities to attend the local merit badge university. The pressure on the program is much more subtle than that. Our council does include announcements regarding the MBU in the newsletter which goes to all families. Every year I have a couple ticked-off parents when they learn our troop doesn't participate. Ditto for "Eagle Week" at summer camp where older Scouts are encourage to attend provisionally with the promise of knocking out nearly half the Eagle-required MBs in a week. Or the annual argument I get that "he really has his heart set on earning all three citizenship badges at camp this summer." Or the pressure from the MB mill troops to which our council camp has slowly succumbed. The camp now offers MB classes until 4:00 every afternoon. And that does detract from the patrol method as program areas and staff like the water front, climbing wall and shooting ranges which were formerly open for patrol activities in the afternoon are now dedicated to merit badges. "Open activity" period is now just one hour. Or even the constant whinning of parents when they discover the troop down the road spends every troop meeting in adult-organized and led merit badge classes. Welcome to my world.