Twocubdad

I should really know better than to get involved in this, but like a moth to a flame, here goes.... When DL for my older son's Wolf den, I noticed that all the boys selected knives for their popcorn sales. After discussing it with the parents, I had the den earn their whittlin' chip as Wolves. We figured that since the boys all had knives, it was better if they learned to handle them safely rather than wait a year. Since knife safety and the Whittlin' chip is clearly part of the Bear program, not the Wolf program, I would consider this a change, albeit a minor one. And since this series of threads started as a discussion of patrol size, I'll note that when that den started as Webelos, we wound up with 12 Scouts, well above the recommended number. Three of the boys moved away, but the remaining nine all earned their Arrow of Light. Of that nine, only one has dropped out of the troop since cross over. Seven of the eight who are still active are on track to make First Class by spring. The other one missed summer camp and is considerably behind the rest, but we're trying to get him caught up. If you discount the boys who moved away, that's an 89% retention rate over the Webelos-to-Scout transition period -- a pretty good measure of success.

$135 is not out of line for the average cost of having a Scout in a pack. That's maybe $10-15 more than our pack's budget, but in the ballpark. Our dues cover about half our budget with the other half coming from popcorn sales. I agree with SMA that families shouldn't have to pay for activities they don't participate in. I wouldn't want our pack to pay the fees for things like camporees, summer camp or special outings like a weekend on the USS Yorktown where only a portion of the pack attends We also charge a nominal fee (usually $5 per person) for food on campouts. If a pack chooses to forgo fundraising and simply asks everyone to pony up the full amount, that's their perogative. There's nothing that says the pack has to provide Scouts/families the opportunity to raise money to pay for participating in Scouting. If it's an issue to you, go out an wash cars one Saturday and use the money you make to pay your pack dues. Frankly, in the time I spend supervising my son's popcorn enterprise, I could easily make the money to pay his dues. Shoot, I spend that much buying popcorn! The second issue is collections/enforcement. SMA doesn't say if her sister can't afford the $135 or if she thinks it's too much and just doesn't want to pay. If it is a matter of financial hardship, has she asked what assistance is available? Our pack often forgives dues for Scouts who truely can't afford it. There are individuals in the pack (myself included) who are willing to write a check to help if needed. That doesn't even get into assistance available from the Council. But what is a unit to do if a family just refuses to pay? How would you suggest they enforce payment of dues? Pinewood Derby kits and trophies cost the pack money. It's one thing if a boy's registration is current, but how long are they to wait at recharter time? I have responsibilities for a pack with a $10,000+ budget. I'm camp director for a day camp with a $30,000+ budget. I'm amazed at the number of people who think that just because we're Scouts we should be lax about collecting money. I even get this from our DE. "Oh well, they're a ScoutReach unit, we'll just call it a campership." But I guarantee you don't want to be standing near a fan the day we are over budget. I have a fiduciary responsibility to the boys/families/unit/council/donors who pay for the programs. That means that sometimes I have to be the son of a gun who stands at the door making sure everyone has paid.

I don't seen any need to make any major changes to the basic field uniform. I wasn't active when the change was made to the current tan shirts from the old olive ones, but I can only imagine the uproar. Other than maybe the epaulets, the thing that makes the uniform militaristic is the insignia. By far, most of that is optional. I don't see any boys stripping down their uniforms because they don't think all the patches are cool. Just the opposite, any uniform "mistakes" I see involve boys wearing too many badges rather than too few. Although I wouldn't care to see a wholesale uniform change, I do think they could do a better job with some of the individual pieces. My pet peeve is the pants. They are cut for 12 year olds, if you know what I mean. Aside from adjusting the cut, I'd like to see the pants go in both directions with a BDU-type outdoor version and a Dockers-style dress trouser. I've got a pair of the light-weight wool dress pants which look nice and are very comfortable. Unfortunately they're not appropriate for outings. As far as value, I can wear the dress pants anywhere. There's nothing that identifies them as "Scout pants." I've worn them with a blue blazer and tie to dinner. I'd like to see a more uniform activity shirt instead of the mish-mash of tees. The red polo-style shirt in the catalog would be a good choice if it were better made. I've got one but don't wear it because it is so uncomfortable. I think it's made from recycled milk jugs. It's like wearing a garbage bag. I'd also like to see a better choice of uniform outerwear. Scouts in the winter look like a bunch of gypsies. I have a set from Columbia with an outer parka and rain pants and zip-in fleece liners. I wear the liners without the shells more often than I do the whole set. Something like that would be very versatile. If they sold it in pieces, it would be more affordable. Granted, I paid for $150 for the Columbia gear, but I wear it year-round -- the shell as a rain suit in the summer, the fleece liners in the spring and fall and the whole get-up in the winter. But even at $150, for the wear I get out of it, that's a much better value than the $100 I paid for my red wool jacket. All these different pieces could be worn mixed and matched, creating several levels of uniforming -- Class A, B, C and D, if you will.

How about d)reluctantly signed-on "for the good of the district" as long as they don't really have to do much. I met our new DC last week. First time I ever met the guy. He's only been our unit commissioner for three years.

One thing my son's troop does a fairly lousy job at is teaching the boys how to plan a campout or outing. Every outing we've been on has been significantly changed or cancelled due to poor planning (failure to secure reservations, leadership, etc.) The troop leaders talk a good game about the troop being boy led, but the truth is that the boys have never been taught the mechanics of planning an event. It's not so much leadership skills as it is management and organization. As a result, my son't new Scout patrol has never planned or even observed a sucessful outing. A secondary problem is that the older boys in the troop are bored with "just camping." All the outings planned by the PLC are built around some other major activity (whitewater, rock climbing, biking) so that the basic Scoutcraft skills of camping and cooking take a back seat. I want to put together a course for the younger boys on how to plan a model campout. I want to walk them through all the steps from initial planning (picking a date, location, activities) down to the the details (menu, duty roster, equipment list) On the actual campout, I'd like to have a series of check lists covering all things like loading and packing equipment, selecting a site and setting up camp through returning home and storing the equipment. These are the kind of procedures an experienced troop or patrol has been trained to do automatically. Of course much of this info is found in the handbook. Ultimately, what I'm looking for is to reduce all that info into series of check lists and/or worksheets. This could be a teaching tool for new Scout patrols, but also a reference for the boys as the become more experienced. Does anyone have anything like this?

"For a Job Well Done" make a trophy out of a piece of burnt toast. I made a base out of a piece of scrap wood with a wooden skewer drilled in it. Stick the tost on the skewer.

The Yorktown in July? Are you insane? I've done two tours of duty on the Fighting Lady and my chiropractor has a new Lexus to prove it. Keep in mind that while on board the boys were "in camp" and were okay to be in activity uniforms (although in a thread a few months back someone make the point that there is no such thing as a Cub Scout activity uniform.) On the other hand, I agree it would be nice to see the boys in full uniform. We tried to get our guys back in unform for dinner. Truthfully, we all know they're all wearing the same underwear all weekend, so it shouldn't make much difference that they wear their uniform the whole time.

Boy, I hate to stir things up, but we have Cub Scouts who tent alone from time to time. If the boy is okay with it, I don't see a safety issue. Tents are typically so close together that any problems during the night which would wake up a tent mate will also wake up those in separate tents nearby. I don't believe sleeping next to another nine-year-old offers much protection against the type of nighttime emergencies that have been mentioned. I think we enforce the buddy system differently. While "in the camp site" we don't enforce the boys being one-on-one with a buddy. Twelve Scouts sittig around the campfire together are considered to be "buddied-up." But if you leave the campsite for any reason you must take a buddy with you. What constitutes being "in the camp site" varies with the layout of each site, but generally means arond the fire ring, within the circle of tents.

In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent. If a parent cannot attend, the boy's family must arrange for another youth's parent (but not the Webelos leader) or other adult to be his parent substitute on the campout. It is essentials the each Webelos Scout be supervised by an adult. Parent substitutes may supervise on one Webelos Scout in addition to their own son Webelos Leader Guide, pg. 21

What the G2SS says is: "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult.... Den Leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips." This is one of those areas where the policy is poorly written and self-contradictory. To my reading, the first two sentences say two different things. But taken as a whole, I intrepret the rule to mean that they really, really, really want a parentto camp with the boy, but there is an out for those situations where that just isn't possible.

I don't disagree with you, E. But since my primary responsibility is as the Cubmaster to a pack with well over 100 boys and since working with the FYFC guys is as much of a commitment to the troop as I'm willing to make, I'm not in a position to do a whole lot about it.

My son's troop has the same problem. They have a huge group of 15- 17-year-old Life scouts, the den of new boy who crossed over this year and only a few in between. Of the older boys who come to meetings, most just hang out and do nothing. I'm responsible for the FYFC program and have asked them to help teach the younger boys but with poor results. No planning, no preparation, but they'll sit and talk about first aid or what ever subject off the top of their head. Makes for a really bad program for the younger boys. Our guys seem to have plenty of ideas, they just don't want to work at anything. Our three big trips for the fall were rock climbing, hiking a section of the AT and deepsea fishing. The SM is into rock climbing and did a good job teaching the basics over a span of three weekly meetings. But when it came time for the trip, only four boys attended, three of my new Scouts and one of the middle boys. The back packing trip promises more of the same. The PLC insists they want this to be a really challenging trip, and are limiting it to First Class and up. So far, I think only four guys are signed up to go -- the four who are into backpacking and have hiked the section before. But there is no planning or preparation going on. The fishing trip is also floundering (sorry). One mom called for info on chartering a fishing boat and found out the cost. That put a damper on that trip as no one was interested in paying the fee or organizing any kind of fundraiser to cover it. There was some talk of going to the Outer Banks and going surf fishing, but when it really comes down to it, I think what the boys really have in mind is just going to the beach and hanging out down there. In all three cases, they're just hanging around waiting for someone to spoon-feed something "fun" to them. If it requires much more effort on their part than operating a TV remote, they're not really that interested. IMHO this relates to A)the level of leadership training the boys have had and B) the fact that a couple of them are just lazy and tend to spoil things for the rest. There are a couple of good leaders in the troop who do a good job of leading those who are willing to be led. To work off BW's analogy, if putting all the bored boys in one room meant that the remaining one were interested and engaged, that may not be a bad trade off. Attaining Eagle is apparently something one does as a lone quest, away from the troop and other Scouts. I've been in the troop for nearly a year and am constantly surprised at the number of unfamiliar boys with wispy facial hair who show up at their first troop meeting in a year for help with their Eagle application or project. Perhaps things have changed in 30 years, but back in the day participated in troop activities while working on our Eagle.

Is singing for lost items hazing? Most likely. But in doing it, the youth did learn some responsibility. And there was some discipline. Now, there is not any real consequence for actions. Also a lack of responsibility. And making boys sing is the best way you can think of to teach them discipline and responsibility?!? That's one of the problems I have with this stuff. It's like quack medicines. It's not that the snake oil will kill you, but that while you're taking the snake oil you're not getting the real medical treatment that could save your life.

Okay, as it relates to your -- er, your son's unit, fair enough. But since I'm a Cubmaster and more likely than not parents tent with their children, what should we require of parents to make sure the rules are followed? Just so you are aware, here are the steps we normally take and/or are taking for our upcoming campout: 1) I discussed the rules at the last pack meeting. 2)Our permission slip asks for the signature of the parent or legal guardian 3)In the case where a parent is assigning supervision of their son to another adult for the weekend the form we require for that reiterates the accommodations policy. 4) The info flyer for the weekend states that "All BSA health, safety and youth protection policies will be observed during the campout." It goes on to specify the accommodations policy. And, 5) The leaders of the trip are all trained to position and/or BALOO trained and prepared to address specific situations as necessary. All these precautions were in place a year ago when the situation came up with the Webelos Scout. What should we be doing differently?

Been watching the presidential debates, Bob? They are wearing off on you. So I'll rephrase the questions: What does BSA consider sufficient proof of parenthood or legal guardianship? What documentation does the troop you serve require? For that matter, what proof have you provided your son's troop that you are the legal parent or guardian of your own son?

I'm not arguing what the policy is, Bob, simply asking what BSA requires of me to take to ensure that the person who brings a child to a campout is in fact a biological parent or has legal custody of they child. What would you consider sufficient proof? What documentation does your troop require? For that matter, what proof have you provided the troop that you are the legal parent or guardian of your own son?

Actually our form just says "parent." But I notice that the signature line on the new form in the G2SS says mother/father/guardian -- it doesn't specify legal guardian either. Admittedly, common sense tells me that in the case of a legal waiver it's looking for a legal guardian. But in this day and age with families being what they are, how far do I have to go in determining the precise custody arrangements for a Scout? If a man known to us as the boy's "father" shows up to go camping do I really need to ask for birth certificates, guardianship papers or adoption records? In the above instance the mother signed the permission slip in advance of the campout and told us that the boy's "father" would be attending. What cause did I have to question that? Who here would think to ask, "Well is it his real, legal father or just some guy you used to shack up with." God as my witness, the need to ask these kind of questions was never mentioned in training.

That may be, but I will make sure that I hire a lawyer who understands the concept of reasonableness. True story: we had a Webelos last year who lived with his mom and stepdad. I don't know that I ever saw the stepfather. The mom was active, helping on the pack committee and attending several campouts. Last fall we were camping at the council camp which is about two hours from here. The mom says that the boy's dad, who lives about 45 minutes the other side of the camp, wants to go camp with the Scout. The mom made arrangement with the den leader for the boy to ride to camp where the dad met us. The dad was there waiting when we arrived. Nice guy. Fit right in with the rest of us. Sunday morning, as we are loading up, I took the time to tell the dad what a great kid his son is and how much we enjoyed having him in the pack. The dad thanks me but almost in passing says that the boy isn't really his son. The "dad" lived with the mother from the time the boy was three months old until a year or two ago. He said the boy never met his real dad and considers him his father. At what point should I have asked for a copy of the boy's birth certificate? I've got applications here for 37 brand new Scouts. Every one of them list only one parent. Unless I've just happend to meet them, I don't necesssarily even know the name of the other parent, much less their legal and/or biological connection to the Scout. For that matter, how do I know that the parent on the application is really the parent? What if they've just "always consider themself the father"? At some point we have to trust the parents.

My Internet service is down for a day and you start talking about me like I'm not here.... "In most cases each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responisble to a specific adult." This sentence appears at least twice in the G2SS. If you like we can differentiate between "parent or guardian" to mean legal guardiand and "specific adult" to mean "small-G guardian for the campout." It is clear to me that either is acceptable. On the other hand, it is also clear that "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his parent or guardian." means just that. Sorry grandpa and Uncle Bill, you need two tents. Yet I think some family situations dictate we apply common sense and accept the judgement of the parents. If a "stepdad" shows up to go camping with his "stepson" are we really supposed to ask if he has legally adopted the child? It is probably more to the point that we are never going to know all nuances and permutations of the various family relationships. Frankly they're not necessarily our business.

Our pack meets the 4th Monday of every month although June, July and August are summertime activities, not normal pack meetings. Dens meet first, third and fifth weeks (if there is a fifth week.) The second Monday is the leaders' meeting. We usually camp once in the fall and once in the spring and our year-end picnic usually turns into a campout too. The troop meets every Tuesday, 52 weeks a year. If Christmas or Chirstmas eve is on a Tuesday, we' skip that. During the summer meetings are usually outings, even something simple, like a volleyball tournament at a local park or a trip to the skating rink. One other thing -- we still try to have Cub Scout meetings on holiday Mondays. If you skip the Mondays that have holidays, you miss a ton of meetings. Because Tuesday is a school day everyone is still in town. There's no reason not to meet.

I feel sure that both the Council President and the Council Nominating Chairman, will not allow this meeting to become one where dissatisfied people voice their opinions. This is not the time or the place. Eamonn, what would you suggest would be the proper time and place?

I'm with OGE. What's your hurry? Here's your hat.

This is just BS. Please quit wasting our time.

An even better approach, Jamie, is "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." I believe you are missing the point. Your "just joking around" is my "hazing." Hazing is in the perception of the person receiving it. We can't agree on what constitutes hazing among ourselves, adults sitting around their computers with plenty time to think. How can we expect 12 and 13 year olds to know where to the lines in the heat of the moment with the pressure of their friends egging them on? Being sent on a fool's search may be good fun for some, but can you predict how a boy will respond? Do you think the other Scouts can predict more accurately the you can? Is the laugh taken at another Scout's expense or your "lesson in self-reliance" worth the possibility that a Scout is humiliated and decides to drop out? There are too many ways to have fun in Scouting without making it at the expense of another Scout.

I didn't mean to imply that you had. Only that it is an interesting proposition to consider. Instead of having hourly merit badge classes to addend, what if boys had the same facilities and activies available to them and the opportunity to simply do whatever they wanted? Would they just hang out and do nothing? Would they find the one activity they really enjoy and do it all week? Would they complain that there is nothing to do?