SR540Beaver

Consider it done. God Bless Cooper and his family.

I might add for effect that our traditional boy led troop has 12 WB trained adults, 5 of which have staffed WB.

OGE, quit being a heretic! Kudu, I don't disagree with you about the ease of enticing and recruiting 6th graders. Been there, done that. I ran the new scout program in our troop of 60 for the last several years and still assist the gentleman I trained and turned the program over to. We take in 15 to 25 new scouts any given year. That is the easy part. Retaining that number until their 18th birthday is the challenge.....and we have an excellent traditional boy led program that includes annual high adventure trips. We have one boy who is 15 and a Life scout. I fully expect him to make Eagle. His little brother just finished his first year in our troop. I believe he is 2nd Class closing in on 1st Class. We rechatered last week. The older brother re-upped as usual. The younger brother flat refused and told his parents he has no interest. Two kids from the same family that is very supportive of scouting. They even have two Cubs with one of them crossing over in February. One brother loves it, one doesn't. I suppose his parents could force him, but what is the point if he doesn't want to be there. We hope he decides to come back and we will stay in touch with him. I've seen many 6th graders come into the program wide eyed and excited only to decide by 7th grade that they are not as excited as they once were. It isn't due to lack of program. As I said, we provide a traditional boy led program. Our boys decide annually where they want to go and what they want to do there. Boys step to the plate to volunteer to be the overall planner for individual outings and handle all the arrangements. Each patrol obviously plans their own menus and duty rosters. The PLC functions largely outside of any adult influnece. We climb and rappel, mountain bike, fish, orienteer, etc. on our outings. In December, we had a shotgun and rifle shooting campout. In February, we are doing a wilderness surrvival outing. Your hand wringing over your perceived demise of scouting is premature. It is alive and well in units like mine across the nation. Do we cater to some of the helicopter parents? Kind of. They are welcome to come on campouts as long as they stay out of the patrols way. It gives them an opportunity to see us in action and realize that little 10 year old Timmy isn't going to go hungry and that we will actually bring him home alive. We find that after one or two campouts, the vast majority of parents relax and let the boys and registered leaders do their thing. For those that enjoy camping, they continue to come and serve as much needed transportation. If having a flush toilet and hot shower at the local scout property is going to get a single mom over the hump and help keep Timmy in long term, that is a good thing. He'll learn how to dig a cat hole when he goes on one of our backpacking treks down the road. Scouting is alive and well. By adapting to the changes in society, it will contine to live. Boys will get out in the outdoors and grow into men of character. I think BP would be pleased.

OGE, I don't profess to know the answer. I'm a fairly traditional guy in a lot of respects, but I realize that I'm slowly edging into the minority more and more in many areas. I think they call this aging. Back to my church theme. I'm perfectly fine with singing the same hymns I sang in my childhood and watching my preacher actually behind the podium instead of on the screens to his left and right. I'm 51. I have a buddy in our troop who is 35 who grew up in Baptist churches when they were still much like what I was used to. He turns his nose up at my idea of church in favor of his come as you are, rock band church. I guess there is a market for both, but his brand is gaining steady ground on mine and eventually mine will be a part of history. Change will happen regardless of whether we personally choose to change with it. But we will eventually be viewed as the crazy old uncle that everyone humors. Bottom line is like you said. It boils down to adapting the core mission and vision to the situation on the ground......and it continually changes. As the unofficial mantra of the USMC states, adapt, improvise and overcome.

So OGE, are we re-inventing Scouting or is Scouting adapting to the times? As I mentioned in an earlier post, many churches have changed. While the core message remains the same, dressing in a suit on Sunday morning and singing from a hymnal to a piano and organ is a snoozer for today's generation. My neices attend a church where the pastor isn't even present. They actually go to a location and watch him on a large screen. That is simply bizarre to me. A church around the corner from my house now sets up skateboard ramps on their parking lot on Wednesday nights to attract the teens. It has turned into THE place to be. The crowds are so large and have so many "non-churchy" kids who at times can cause problems, that they have to have a police presence there every week to help keep things under control. To compete, my onw church has built a youth facility with a stage, lights, smoke, mirrors, the works. They even have a snack bar and an internet access section. Many church's worship services now resemble rock concerts. My sister's church meets on Saturday night so folks don't have to bother with getting out of bed early on Sunday. Many churches have decided that they have to adapt the situation while remaining true to there core message in order to bring people in and not die. Me, I still like dressing in a suit on Sunday morning and singing hymns. But I don't like being part of a congregation of ten or twelve 90 year olds. Scouting is faced with the same scenario. If you have protected children with helicoptor parents, how do you approach them to get and keep them in your program to achieve your mission? Flush toilets and hot showers? That is but one of the common changes being made in camp properties today. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter how or where you poop on in order to gain smething out of scouting? Sone folks here sincerely believe that every boy worth anything still wants exactly what Baden Powell provided 100 years ago. Some do. Many don't. Should we throw out the baby with the bath water or change the bath water?(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Beavah: "Personally, when I counsel badges, I do my best to live up to da BSA's policy, eh? "To the fullest extent possible, the counselor-scout relationship should allow the scout to gain the full benefit of the mentoring, expertise, and relationship with the counselor" and all that. I'd never ever accept a nearly complete card from someone else and just sign off da last thing. Where's the fun and learning in that? I'm goin' to grab a couple canoes and go hit a river with the boy and his buddy. We're goin' to have fun and get wet and work hard and demonstrate all kinds of skills." I guess we can come up with all sorts of scenarios, but I've seen this happen more than once. A booy starts a MB with one MBC who doesn't reup as a MBC or becomes unavailable for one reason or another. The boy has already received the benefit of the mentoring, expertise and relationship with his former counselor. He just has one requirement left on a MB that had 90 day tracking requirements. Are you really going to make him repeat the requirements for your satisfaction? Wouldn't a short discussion to determine whether he learned the subject to be comfortable assisting with the last requirement be more in order? Keep in mind, the Scout/MBC rrelationship is two way. The scout is free to find someone who will help him finish his goal instead of accepting someone who will make them start over.

I'm thinking that an 18 year old female ASM can not be in OA. While the age out for youth in Boy Scouts is 18, it is 21 for OA. She would still be considered a youth for OA purposes and would not meet the eligilibity requirements for youth.

Nothing against Venturing, but I don't believe they have substantial enough numbers to make a significant difference in OA membership. Besides, I'd venture (no pun intended) a guess that the majority of adults and youth who came from Boy Scouts into a Crew are already OA, so you would mostly be gaining youth females with some adult females.

BP, I'll gladly let our posting histories speak for themselves.

What specifically was Bob incorrect about BadenP? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bob is a big boy and he does not me defending him. Heck, there are times I don't always agree with him, but I don't feel compelled to be petty about it like some folks around here. Just for the record, Dean invoked Bob's name before Bob even responded in this thread by saying he was sure Bob would come along and give him a lashing. When he did respond (with what is hard to argue as being incorrect), you guys decide to pile on. Grow up! The purpose of the OA is to recognize scouts who their peers see as a scout's scout. Following Ordeal, an Arrowman makes a decision to embrace the OA by becoming a Brotherhood member. As an Arrowman, our duty is to provide cheerful service. Some of us take it seriously. The OA is not about getting more patch bling to wear. If you are going to self identify with the OA, then do it correctly by being a dues paying member wearing your Lodge's patch and actively providing service to your unit first and beyond second.

Pack, Go about halfway down the page at this link. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=219463&p=4 Fscouter deleted GW's comments and referred to him as "Mark". That gives me the impression that GW was our old friend Mark Yaworski who has trolled these forums over the years under a wide variety of user names. GW's attitude fit many of Yaworski's other personas, so it makes sense. Also, if you do a search on GW, you'll see his status listed as closed account. I believe he was unceremoniously ushered away from the campfire. Beavah? I have no idea. Maybe he is just taking a break.

I live in Oklahoma where nobody admits to being from Texas.

I asked the question half in jest. Some camps opt to provide some RV hook-ups for adults and their families spending their summer staffing summer camp. That is cheaper than spending the money to provide cabins or temp housing. If I were a camp or program director who will be spending much more time at the camp than the youth staff will be, I'd prefer not to spend a couple of months in a tent.

Oh come on Frank......you're from Norman and you didn't know how to respond to BOOMER!!!? Go to SR-940 if you get the chance. I've got some good friends staffing that course and you'll be glad you went. If you can't make that one, go to SR-967 in the fall. It likewise has a great staff. I staffed SR-756 in 2006 and SR-896 this last September. You'll find Wood Badge well worth your time and effort. Are you with a Pack or a Troop there in the Sooner District?

Family camp? RV? Really?

Welcome fellow Okie. BOOMER!!!

That kid. Boy, I know a number of them. One is near and dear to my heart though.....my son. For a while, it seemed like he got hurt on every campout. He has been cut, burned, sprained, etc. At summer camp one year he stepped on the lid of the strainer basket of the swimming pool and it gave way and his leg went in. It put a nice gash in his shin. The health lodge was about to send him to town for stitches when the doc recalled he had some surgical glue in stock and they glued him up. He also ran thru the brambles one night while playing capture the flag. As to his eating, he is pickier at home than at camp. He has backpacked the Pecos Wilderness and Philmont as well as canoed Northern Tier. Even when car camping, he goes into high adventure mode when it comes to eating. Anything and everything is fair game whether he cares for it or not. Now, if we could just get him to eat that way at home.

You get it really mad. Bada boom!

Actually Ed, if you read back thru this threadand other threads back over time, you will find those who firmly believe that the BSA has changed the program over time. They believe that the BSA program does not include an outdoor program or the patrol method. As Bob and others have repeatedly pointed out, these elements have always been and still are verymuch the base of the program. The BSA makes tweaks here and there, but the basics are still the basics. Has, the oath, law, motto, slogan, handshake, salute, scout symbol, etc. changed? Have the ranks, being a uniformed movement, rank requirements, etc. changed? Some, but much. While some folks do a lot of hand wringing and moaning, the majority of the changes are merely tweaks. Personally, I think that the Cooking MB should be Eagle required, but the world isn't going to end because it isn't. As I've stated before, I work with new scouts, so I know the Tenderfoot thru First Class requirements backwards and forwards. I have access to a few old handbooks from back from the old days like the 50's for instance. While the wording and orgaanization of those requirements have changed, the base of thos requirements are the same. The real finger of blaqme lies within the individual units and it's leadership. Scouting has always suffered from well intentioned adults who either thru ego or laziness, change the program to suit their needs. If they will follow the training and the program as designed by the BSA over the last 100 years up to the present, they will provide a robust outdoor program that is boy led and will deliver the promise. The boogeyman resides locally and always has.

kudu, I'm curious. Have you ever even attended a Wood Badge course? When? I've been a participant and staffed two courses. I also attended the Course Directors Development Conference in Dallas not too long ago in preparation to be the back up course director and I'm willing to bet that I'm just a tad more in tune with what is actually taught at Wood Badge and what is coming down the pike. It isn't remotely like anything you have ever attempted to describe here. You can continue to tilt at Wood Badge windmills to your heart's content, but know that the members here who have been to Wood Badge know that you have no practical idea of what you are talking about. I apologize for being so blunt, but it is the truth.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

What do you consider as "original" Wood Badge course? Baden Powell held the first course in 1919. The first experimental course in the US was in 1936 and officially inaugurated in 1948. For the first 10 years, the BSA conducted courses for exclusively for council representatives in methods of training to assist with leadership training at the council level. In 1958, councils were authorized to conduct their own courses. Course content was revised in the late 60's and late 70's as well as 1994 and 2003. The content has always dealt with leadership training since day one.

Bob, You have a point when it comes to service. We should serve regardless of whether we are recognized or rewarded. That being said, why would you hide your lamp under a basket? The Boy Scouts and/or OA being seen providing service in the community certainly doesn't hurt Scouting's image and might be the incentive for a boy or his parents to want to get him involved. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'd like to see a show of hands here of the SM's and ASM's who currently don't teach traditional outdoor skills and self-suffiency as part of their unit program. Go ahead, I'll wait patiently for you to raise your hands. When you do, please tell us what you have replaced those elements of your program with, whether it be staying at the Holidome or PS3 gaming or microwave cooking. Don't be embarrased. Anyone?

As I stated in my earlier post, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I left scouting as a Webelos in 1968, so I never became a Boy Scout or Arrowman. I became an Arrowman as an adult. While not officially listed as a Chapter Advisor, I am there for everything as I have to drive my son who is the Camping and Service Chair in our Chapter and is also on the Ceremonies Team. Like many other people, I was one of those who always wondered what the OA was all about. After joining, I was still one of those wondering what it was all about. Our Lodge and Chapters just kind of chug along. Some Chapters were actually inactive. Fall Fellowship and the annual Lodge Banquet usually netted more adults than youth. The adults recognize the problem and it is always a topic of discussion of how to improve the situation. Of course, you have all the old timers who tell you what it used to be like back in the day when they did tap outs, etc. Not to put all the blame on our previous Lodge Advisor who just stepped down, but he took a very hands off approach in his advising methods. Our incoming Lodge Advisor has been an Arrowman for decades and seems to have a real vision for what he would like to see the Lodge return to. He realizes it is about the boys and it has to offer them something they want. He also realizes that it has to turn around under boy leadership. As others have said, I think it is important for Arrowmen to be front and center anywhere and everywhere they can be to make the OA more visible in the Council. I don't believe they should be wearing their sashes as the handbook specifies when that should be done and it just isn't always practical. But a Lodge t-shirt or hat would certainly be in order when a field uniform isn't. We are beginning to get a little better organized by actually having a calender of events published ahead of the new year. We have an individual day of service scheduled for our summer camp property and our Venturing/high adventure property aside from Ordeal weekends. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have a day for the property where the majority of our Districts do Day Camp or the property where Cub Resident Camp is held. I believe the Lodge should provide service to those camps as well. What I'd like to see is the service coupled with some program activities. Work six hours around camp and then spend 3 hours shooting black powder or climbing and rapelling followed by a great dinner and maybe an outdoor movie or campfire. The possibilities are endless. I'd like to see the Lodge challenge the Chapters to develop some sort of service project/progran activity every 3 or 4 months aside from what the Lodge does. I'd like to see the OA promoted within the Council from the SE down. We have Troops that absolutely refuse to allow our election team to come to their units. That being said, I'd like to see monthly Chapter meetings rahter than seasonal ceremony practice for the small handful of active boys. I want to see the Lodge turn the OA into something fun and meaningful that boys actually want to take part in and the first place people turn to when they need some form of service provided. That is my wish list off the top of my head.

Jblake, Well, you are correct. Life has always been about choices. I didnt say it wasnt. Im reminded of that every day when I see the homeless people on the sidewalks outside my office. But the fact that life is full of choices really has nothing to do with the inevitability of change. Things are going to change around us regardless of whether or not we chose to embrace those changes. Change provides additional choices. My point was that my mom didnt have a choice between cooking fresh ingredients over a stove and not doing so. That was the only option available at the time. Microwaves were not invented yet. Fast food joints were few and far between and an unacceptable expense with a stay at home mom and four children on a blue color pay check. Prepackaged foods were pretty basic. Today, the options have multiplied exponentially. Yes, you can still choose to cook and live like 1957.but you dont have to. Right or wrong, most people choose progress as it comes along. Im sure you could use a horse and buggy as transportation if you so chose, but Im betting you find modern transportation a better option for getting around. No one here is making an argument against an outdoor scouting program or continuing the traditions and values of Scouting. Scouting began in Victorian England. It appealed to the boys of that era for a variety of reasons. But times have changed. The youth of today have literally hundreds of different options than those boys did. That isnt to say that some of the same activities or methods of doing things wouldnt attract boys today.....but it will attract far fewer. We can be a purist organization that still operates as Baden Powell did in 1909 and have a very small membership or we can adapt to the times and promote a program that interests boys in 2009 and spread the values, traditions and lessons of scouting. Sleeping in a canvas tent over sleeping in a nylon tent wont make an iota of difference in the character a boy develops thru Scouting. Change is inevitable, but you have a choice of changing with the times or not. Me, I appreciated driving my heated truck to work in 20 minutes this morning as opposed to freezing in a buggy for an hour and a half after hitching up the horse. Call me crazy.