SR540Beaver

awilson70, First off, welcome to the forums!!! Second, it sounds like you are still trying to be a Cubmaster in a Boy Scout troop. While I am well aware that boys often make choices different than ours as to which troop they will join, it is they who will be a part of the troop and not us. Let them be part of the troop they want to be a part of. If you force them to go to what you as an adult like, they will probably lose interest. In a boy led troop, the boys do their annual planning of where they want to go and what they want to do. In my neck of the woods, we refer to troops where they adults do this as adult led. There are ways to interject ideas without undermining the boy led concept in the troop. Discuss the ideas with your son and let him take it to his leadership. "His" idea might get shot down, but that is part of what boy led is all about. Most SM's like parents who support the program, but it is his job to oversee the program. There is a time and a place to approach the SM about ideas.....and during meetings is not usually the best time. While adults can sit in on our troop meetings, we do have a room for parents to visit and while away their time while the boys do their thing. I don't intend for this to be offensive in any way awilson. It is just that I have spent the past several years as an ASM for our new scout program where we usually get anywhere from 15 to 25 boys per year. I have seen a lot of seperation anxiety on the part of parents who thought that Boy Scouts was going to be a bonding experience for them like Cub Scouts was. It can be, but at more of a distance. You need to join as a committee member and find a place to serve. Let the SM and his ASM's oversee the boy led part of the program.

Dan, I refer to it as a "gay church" for lack of a better description and because it was started by my gay friend and it catered to and recruited from the gay/lesbian community in Dallas. Being gay was not however a condition of membership. Over the years, they did have a few heterosexual members join. You have heard of black churches haven't you?

Annie, That isn't exactly what I said. My best friend who is gay was the pastor of a gay church in Dallas, TX for many years. My point is that if you want to look at the percentages, the east and west coast is typically my "progressive" than middle America. You will find more acceptance by clergy in those parts of the nation than you will in others as admitted by Horizon who has lived in both. Will you find ministers who are accepting of homosexuality in Kansas? Yes. Will you find ministers in California and New York who are not accepting of homosexuality? Yes. Will the east and west coast have a higher concentration of ministers who are accepting of homosexuality than ministers in middle America? Yes. There is a mix across the nation, but a higher concentration of one over the other depending on where you look.

Horizon, You might want to stop and consider your location of southern California in having to talk those ministers and rabbis into supporting scouting. Just about everywhere else in America other than the east and west coast, the ban on gays is not an issue with the clergy when considering becoming a charter organization. I did have one church I dealt with decide not to charter a unit. It wasn't because they disagreed with scouting's policy. It was because a sister church had recently been picketed by a gay/lesbian organization and they didn't want all the drama for their congregation.

BSA owns the program and can decide their membership. If that is detrimental to their continued success, it is up to them to decide whether or not to continue the bans they have in place. Members have never had a vote. What they do have is a choice to associate with BSA or not. I'm a Baptist. I have no interest in attending and participating at a Catholic church. The Catholic church is under no obligation to make me a member if I chose to remain Baptist in my theology. As a Baptist, I have been down this road before with a married couple who were charismatic. They claimed to be Baptist, they just believed a "little more" than the rest of us at the church. The problem was that they were teaching their "little more" to everyone else. They were removed as Sunday School teachers for teaching what was contray to Baptist faith and doctrine. The church had the right to decide what was taught in their church. What I never understood was why this couple wanted to be members of a Baptist church when there were other churches that shared their belief. BSA owns the program. Right or wrong, like it or not, they can set their membership policy.

aquaticeagle - "Have you seen any research done in this area?" Perhaps you missed the part where I said "based on my personal experience". It is kind of like touching a hot pan. I don't need a study in order to know not to touch it again after being burned once. I will warn others about the heat so they can avoid being burned too. A straight man has never tried to grope me. A gay man has. He didn't target the girls in our youth group. He targeted the boys. I would not support him being a scout leader.......based on MY personal experience.

aquaticeagle, Let me preface my comments by saying that I have a sister who is a lesbian and one of my best friends is gay. I love them both dearly as they are wonderful people. Now with that being said, I support the ban on gays based on protection issues. Protection for the youth and the gay adult. Before I get accused of it, no I do not equate homosexuality with pedophilia. I was once a youth with a wonderful youth minister that I idolized. One night at church summer camp, he decided to attempt groping me. I told him NO and it stopped then and there. Come to find out years later, rumors had follwed him at each church he worked at. He moved out of state after my church to the town where my gay best friend lived. My friend worked in the hotel industry and told me how my former youth minister used to troll the hotels in town looking for action. Is this the behavior of all gay men? No, it isn't. But, do you want to play the odds with your child? Do you also want to play the odds with your gay friends and the accusations that could be made against them? Based on my own personal experience, I fully support the ban on gay leaders in scouting. It is the prudent thing to do.

This is a little off topic, but not really. Our last outing was a survival wilderness campout on some private property. The boys had to use a combination of map and compass and GPS to find their patrol's survival sites and then their food. This was land that none of the boys were familiar with and there were only cattle trails and no roads. Each patrol leader was allowed to carry their cell phone in order to contact the adults back at the base site in case of an emergency or if any scout decided to back out. We did have good cell reception at the location and most walkie talkies would have been out of range. The boys had a blast and no one "freaked out" and needed to come back into base camp. We do have email lists set up for the whole troop, just the adults and each patrol as well as a top notch website. The boys also have their phone call chain from the SPL to the ASPL's to the PL's and on down. Unofficially, one of our adults created a facebook group and there is probably a third of the troop (boys and adults) on facebook. The call chain often ends up being a text chain.

skeptic, Thank you for bringing the thread back on track. My story was an illustration of a scout in our troop using the F word publically and how it allowed me as a leader to take time to get to know him better and have a teaching moment. Thew purpose of the story was not to analyze the family relationship. He is a good kid from a good family. Like many kids, he thinks his parents are to harsh. Like many parents, they think he acts irresponsibly. In his frustration and anger, he used an inappropriate vulgar word in a public forum to express himself. I merely gave him a friendly and gentle reminder in private that it did indeed reflct poorly on him and was a bad example to whoever might be watching him....young or old. Knowing this boy, I doubt that he will ever post the word on facebook again or at least think twice about it.

Texas? Oh, you mean Baja Oklahoma.

In case folks wonder why the BSA is making such overtures to the hispanic community, it is because they will be the majority in America in our children's lifetime.

fscouter, Our conversation was private, so I won't go into a lot of details. This young man has always been a very quiet young man. I was one of his Jambo ASM's when I first met him in 2005 and I never heard him say a word the whole time. To hear his peers tellit, he is quite the comedian around the boys. My son and I joined the home troop he was in following Jambo as ours was folding. He spent 9 months serving as one of my TG's for new scouts a year or so back. Even then, he was a very quiet young man. Suffice it to say, our facebook PM conversation was the first I knew that there was any family turmoil. According to him, his parents are never happy with anything he does and very critical. I don't know if that is true or not. He says he dreads going home because of the atmosphere. Being acquainted with his dad, that was something of a surprise to me. He isn't a touchy feely kind of guy, but I don't know him to be a grump or grouch. I know his son better and he is a really good kid, never a problem at school or in the troop and is well liked. His use of the F word online was totally out of character for him. That was why I called him on it and that is what started our conversation. He was at the gym working out and lost track of time and was 10 minutes late calling them. As a result, they "jumped on him" when he got home and took his phone away as punishment. And with that, I have already said too much. The bottom line for me was that a good kid who doesn't normally behave the way he did, did so online and it became a teaching moment about how he is an example to others and his actions were inappropriate. The reason he did was somewhat immaterial.

Interestingly enough, one of my former Troop Guides (16 year old Life Scout and former ASPL) used the F word in his status on facebook last night. I'm his friend on facebook and I saw it within minutes of him posting it. I sent him a private message and very kindly told him that what he does out there is public, we have a number of our younger scouts on facebook who look up to him and that his use of that word was inappropriate. He quickly changed it and apologized. We then spent the next 15 to 20 minutes PM'ing each other about how frustrated he is with his parents who he doesn't believe loves him and who had taken his phone away from him for being 10 minutes late getting home. I know his dad and assured him that I was sure his parents loved him and to keep in mind that they might have had a bad day themselves and over reacted. I also told him that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence and that he wasn't the only person who thought their parents didn't like, love or understand them. I told him that he was a good kid who was respected and well liked by everyone we knew mutually. In the end, I think he had settled down and thanked me for the conversation. Hopefully he will remember our talk the next time he gets frustrated and feels the need to utter the F word in anger. We are examples to even the strangers around us that we will never see again.

frankj, Quit being so reasonable. You take all the fun out of the fisticuffs.

I'm going to beg to differ with those of you who think it is OK for scouts to use words such as frickin'. Yes, darn, shoot, heck, geez, gosh, etc. are also used and not looked upon as the same way. It is because they have become so common in our daily discourse that they have lost much of their regular intent. But the "cardinal sin" of word usage is the F word and therefore, frickin' also carries a different level of severity. Face it, a kid doesn't go around saying darn and shoot every other word in a conversation. Frickin' on the other hand seems to get thrown into just about every sentence for some kids. Let's set the frickin' tent up by the frickin' tree line to block the frickin' north wind so we won't be so frickin' cold. I see kids say sentences like this where I never see them say the same sentence with darn replacing frickin'. It simply is not scout appropriate. We correct our scouts anytime they let it slip in front of us. The scout oath and law isn't something to just be recited. The owrds have meaning. It is a guide to how we live our life. We are supposed to be different and make a difference. Acting like uneducated and uncouth slackards is not what we are trying to achieve. Will they talk that way around their friends away from earshot of the adults? Sure they will. We did to as kids. Do they need to learn that there are times and places where it isn't appropriate? Sure do! We don't relieve ourselves in public and we shouldn't do the same thing with our mouths in public. I'm a little sensitive to this because our troop held a MB fair for the first time in many years this past weekend. Our charter organization graciously opened up their facilities for us to host 150 scouts from multiple districts. Right now it is under review as to whether they will allow us to do it in the future because of the actions and language of many of the scouts in attendance as witnessed by church members who were present. We were proud of our own scouts who were there because they were in their "home" and they know what the expectations are in how we treat our charter's property. Unfortunately, we had scouts there whose leadership thinks frickin' is just boys being boys.

Sorry OGE, it would just be a lost cause.......and I typed that as slow as I could.

Thanks for the link John. I sent the facebook link to 40 of my scouting friends on there including Liz and packsaddle. I'll have to check twitter from home. It is blocked here at work.

Our troop has used the Eureka Timberline Outfitter tents for years. We have some from the mid-80's that will be retired this weekend at a troop work day. We will be putting into service an equal number of Timberlines. For Jamboree, the council has finally been convinced to quit using the BSA wall tents in favor of Alps Mountaineering tents that will be sold off after Jamboree. For long term use, they are not as durable as the Eureka Timberlines, but will do fine for their intended purpose. For anyone wondering why we are getting away from the wall tents, here is the reason. Yes, they look really cool.....when they are set up correctly. Our experience in 2005 was that the boys (despite training) just didn't put the effort into setting them up correctly or provide the care they required of tightening and loosening when it rained. It took hours and hours to get camp set up while the troops with dome tents were set up and enjoying the Jambo within 45 minutes. The two pole dome tents are just easier to set up and maintain and you basically can't make the campsite look bad from poorly set up tents and dining flys. Plus, the area you are given isn't very big and with wall tents, you have guy lines literally everywhere. Sorry to derail the thread. The main thrust was that I believe the heavier duty outfitter model of the Eureka Timberline to be superior to Alps tents. It just depends on how much you can afford to spend.

Red Feather, You might want to consider the Pecos Wilderness in northern New Mexico. Our troop did a trek there in 2007 and had a great time.

Good grief! I'm sitting at my desk at work with tears in my eyes after reading the article. I'm not sure I can watch the movie.

I've recorded it, but have not had time to sit down and watch it. It will be a family event when I do.

OGE, was the man a unit leader in the unit who's patrol won the Klondike Derby ans was the boy part of the patrol? IF so, I found the name interesting. In the gay world, a "bear" is a chubby, hairy homosexual man. That gives "bear rassler" a whole new meaning.

I think it is important to remember what it was like to be a boy to enable yourself to allow them to dream their program as big as they want. Then I think it is important to guide them and train them, but stay out of their way. I'm perfectly happy to go on our outings and sit back and relax while watching them from afar to make sure they all come home in mostly one piece.

eagle1977, My son (only child) turns 16 in 2 days. I really, really miss when my little buddy constantly used me for a chair and freely gave hugs and kisses. They grow up too quickly. It pays to enjoy each stage as much as possible.

2 old style uniform shirts with unit patches 1 old style uniform shirt with 2005 Jamboree unit patches 1 old style uniform shirt stripped for training activities 2 old style uniform pants 3 old style uniform shorts 3 old style web belts many old style socks in every length 1 leather belt 1 shirtjac 1 first generation switchback pants - hate them with a passion 1 new style uniform shirt 1 new style uniform pant 1 pair new style socks more scout t-shirts than you can shake a stick at more scout hats than you can shake a stick at 1 OA sash 1 WB thong with 2 beads 1 WB thong with 3 beads With the 2010 Jamboree coming, I will be in the market for 2 more new uniforms, belts and socks.