SR540Beaver

Or a blank ballot could mean one that has no check marks next to the listed names. Election teams should work with the SM ahead of time once the election is scheduled. A printed ballot makes life much, much simpler for everyone involved if you don't want hanging chad moments.

We have a roster of 60. We have 18 new scouts this year. The OA election was held the night of many of these boys first troop meeting. It was explained to them how the voting works and for it to be a fair election, they would not be voting this year as they didn't know anyone well enough to make a valid vote. Now, that wasn't the exact wording, but it was the gist of how it was done. I know it varies from Lodge to Lodge, but doing elections at summer camp would never work for us. Call outs typically happen at spring District Camporees, so obviously the elections have to happen before that. Our district's call out will be happening on April 18th and the first of two Ordeals will be May 16th. Summer camp happens in June and July. Elections for us happen in the December to March time frame with troops scheduling an election team to come to one of their troop meetings.

desertrat, I've never heard of car camping called tailgate camping, but what you call it doesn't really matter I guess. A well trained troop of patrols should be able to have camp set up or taken down in under an hour which leaves plenty of time for program rather than logistics. You arrive at camp. The PL looks for a suitable site for the patrol to camp. In the mean time, the patrol members go to the trailer and get their patrol box which contains their stove, stove stand, hose and distribution tree. Two boys carry it to their site while one boy carries the patrol box legs and a lantern. Another boy carries a propane bottle. They get to the site, set the box on it's legs, open it, take out the distribution tree and connect it to the propane bottle. Next they put the lantern on top of the tree, set up the stove stand, put the stove on it and connect the hose between the stove and tree. While a couple of guys have been doing this, the rest of the patrol have gone back to the trailer to get their tents and the tarps they use for footprints. Back to the campsite to set them up. The two guys who were hooking up the lanern and stove go back to the trailer and get their KP buckets and fire buckets along with their patrol dutch oven. In less than 30 minutes, the patrol campsite is complete and they go get their personal gear and put it in their tents. The rest of the night is free except for the PLC that will go over the program plans for the weekend. Saturday is program, program, program. Sunday morning is a reverse of Friday night. If you are doing it right, you shouldn't be spending more than two hours setting up and tearing down during your outing. Chances are you will spend twice that driving to and from camp. Now, are there troops who don't do it this way? Of course. I work with new scouts and it is fun to watch them go on their first campouts and bring bags and gear like they are part of the Louis and Clark expedition. They quickly learn that they will not use 95% of what they bring and pare it down. Troops can learn this too and get leaner and meaner and organized and be quite efficient "tailgate campers".

Old or new, wearing the uniform is just an accepted part of the culture in our troop. There are a small handful of boys who will wear a jacket to cover their shirt even at a meeting, but for the vast majority, it just isn't a big deal. Now, would they wear it to school? No. In public? Yes.

There should ALWAYS be a ballot. The election team has to have something to count, verify and audit.

I hadn't really paid much attention to this thread until now and Mafaking just struck a chord with me. Background which I've shared before. I am a Southern Baptist. My degree is in Religion from a SB university and I spent a short time in the ministry and a longer time as an ordained Deacon. We have some uber-fundamentalist evangelical Christians in our troop who view the BSA as a Christian organization. I've had more than one conversation with these folks who came to me looking for support to complain to the SM about our Scouts Own on Sunday mornings and about just saying amen instead of "in Jesus name" at the end of prayers. They felt that they were being discriminated against in the SM's efforts to be tolerant of other's beliefs and non-sectarian. They were sorely disappointed with my response to them. On a campout where the SM and Chaplain's Aid were not present, one of these adults took it upon himslef to step in and gave what amounted to a sermon with an alter call for salvation. One of the other adults rode the SM about his SM Minute presentations and wanted to have a round of guest SM Minutes. The purpose behind it? We need to be in these boy's faces every opportunity we have and make every opportunity a teaching moment to "hit them over the head" (his actual words) with the Oath and Law. These guys see the "values" as the most important thing in scouting and feel like they are lacking. These same guys ave the greatest difficulty with boy-led and realizing that scouting is a game with a purpose. The boys learn over time within the trappings of an outdoor program. They don't want to sit on a bench in the scout room and be preached at. Your mileage is going to vary from troop to troop, but the values are built into the program. We commit ourselves to delivering the promise. If we do it right, the values are part of the mix that makes up the promise. It will take care of itself. We lead by example. Does that mean taking a teaching moment or sometimes having a pointed discussion is off limits? Of course not. But we don't need to beat them over the head with it either(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

I'm wading into this mud puddle and then I'm wading out. I know plent of gay folks, male and female. Some are very close friends and some are family. Far be it for me to tell someone who they can fall in love with. They will regardless of my approval or lack of approval. That being said, you can't just go and change fundamental definitions. You don't call a Baptist a Catholic just because they both believe in Christ. You don't call an apple an orange because they are both fruit. Since before written history, MARRIAGE is the joining of a man and a woman. THAT is what a marriage is. If you want to have a contract or a civil union between same sex couple that is recognized by the state for legal purposes, be my guest.......just don't call it marriage.

OK, I'll be serious this time, I'm just not sure where to start. We are a troop with a roster right around 60 most years. We typically average 20 new scouts per year that come from a variety of packs in our district. We have pretty decent retention of older scouts. We currently have about 15 boys at Life who are anywhere between 14.5 to 17.5 years old. Our troop is 45 years old with 151 Eagles over the years. We are boy led. The boys do their own annual planning in deciding where they will go and what they will do. They also pick their summer camp. This year they are going out of state to Colorado. The troop does an annual high adventure trip for older scouts. We rotate between Philmont and Northern Tier and home grown treks like Pecos Wilderness. We don't do Sea Base because the cost has always killed any serious interest, but do have individual boy(s) go from time to time. In 2005 and again in 2010, we will have about a dozen boys attend Jamboree. In any given year, our monthly outings will include mountain biking, climbing/rappeling, shotgun shooting, wilderness survival, canoeing, etc. Merit badges are outside troop meetings and outings. We have a monthly service project that rotates by patrol, but anyone is welcome to participate even if it is not their patrol. We do encourage the boys to do at least one dutch oven meal per most outings. At this point, the active Arrowmen in our chapter comes from out troop. With the exception of one boys from another troop, the OA chapter positions as well as the ceremonies team is filled by our scouts. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. We try to deliver the promise as fully as possible while staying out of the boys way.

We refer to ourselves as a boy-led troop as do many others. The devil is in the details.

Barry, I hear you, but I don't think things will change. The troop has far too much invested in gear for 5 patrols plus adults to entertain paring down. We use Eureka Timberline tents for the youth and several different varieties of Eureka tents for adults. Propane tanks alone for cooking and lighting take up a lot of space. Plus, we just had brand new patrol boxes built and retired hodge podge styles we had used for years. One trailer is for gear. The other is for personal gear. We could probably get by with using just one trailer if we attempted to put everyone's personal gear in the vehicles they are riding in. But even 4 backpacks in the trunk of a car would be pusing the limits of the trunk. I will admit, it is the adult side of things that increases our gear carrying capacity. In addition to our patrol box, we have two huge black plastic storage boxes. One for food and the other for paper goods, tools, hand warmers, etc. Then there are two turkey cookers for heating KP water for the whole troop in addition to cooking for the adults. And the two tables the adults use to hold all their junk. We had 44 boys on the last campout and 21 adults. Personally, I'd like to see that cut to about 10 adults......but that ain't happening. That would be a 4 to 1 ratio and some adults who pull trailers are using their single cab truck, so you have need for more adults driving. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I would like to see us go lighter, but I just don't think it is a mindset they are willing to entertain at this point.

Ditto to what shortridge said. The election team INFORMS the SM of the final results based on the ballot he APPROVED. These guys are elligble to be called out and go thru Ordeal. We've had more than one stinker in our troop that the SM had to hold his nose on when he put them on the ballot. The boys voting are not stupid. They typically follow the election teams instructions and vote accordingly. The process usually works except for where some one decides to manipulate the process.

I've had a different experience with my 2004 Chevy Siverado crew cab truck than some of you other guys. I bought it brand new in July 2004 and it has been a great truck. It has hauled scouts and equipment from one end of the state to the other. I also hauled scouts and equipment to Arkansas and back for high adventure shakedowns and then to the trail head in the Pecos Wilderness in New Mexico. I've never had an issue with the truck. I've got almost 90,000 mile on it now.

Like Beavah, you can count me as another conservative who doesn't buy the drill here, drill now, pay less mantra. That was a bumper sticker slogan made up by talk radio to stir up the "true believers". Oil is a global market. Any oil drilled here would go on that world market. Even if we were able to flood the market with cheap and easily produced oil (which we can't), the other producing nations would just cut back their production to maintain the price. The slogan is a nice sentiment, but has no basis in reality. Talk radio also likes to make the claim that their is a ban on oil drilling in the US. That is false. There are protected wilderness areas where drilling isn't allowed. Other than those limited protected areas, the rest of the country is wide open for drilling. Another issue with drilling here is that it just doesn't pay. Much of the oil here has to be forced out of the ground as opposed to the middle-east. It is cheaper and easier and therefore more profitable to drill elsewhere. Oil companies operate to make a profit. They will go where it is cheaper and easier to produce oil every time. Bush or Cheney with their ties to the oil industry and having a majority in congress could have appealed to the oil company's patriotic duty if they had wanted to. They knew the bottom line for the oil companies was profit and there is more to be had elsewhere.......as well as drilling here not really changing anything on the global market.

No wonder you have such a dim view of Woodbadge. Your council isn't teaching it correctly. I suggest you get training from a neighboring council.

One word, no. I've reviewed my admin guide and syllabus and I don't know where your folks got that as it is not a part of Woodbadge. Either your council is not following thru on the pledge the course director is required to agree to to serve in the position.....or someone was playing an April Fool's joke at roundtable. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, why don't you register for the course so you will have some actual knowledge of what you continually criticize.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

gwd, I ran our new scut program for a couple of years before turning it over to my assistant and assisting him since last year. We typically run about 20 new scouts per year. New parents coming along will dwindle after the first couple of campouts other than those that decide to serve as registered leaders. A typical campout for us will be 40 boys and we pull 2 trailers, so we need a decent amount of adults for transportation. When our SM first took the troop, he spent Thursday evenings before the campout begging adults to come along for two deep leadeship. Now it isn't unusual for 15 to 20 adults to be along.....which is too many for me, but they camp as their own patrol and stay away from the boys. Congrats on your growth!

Since I was an early to mid-60's Cub, I was pre-Tigers. This was back in the day when there was only one hat and one neckerchief from Bobcat/Wolf thru Lions. In 1967 when I was to become a Lion, the program was dropped and became known as Webelos. I dropped out of Webelos mid-year because the den leader creeped me out. I don't recall a single campout during my Cub years and I know we would have participated because my family camped on their own. I never gave scouts another thought until my son came home from school one day saying he wanted to go to a sign up meeting for Cubs that night. The rest is history and now I could kick myself for not going on to Boy Scouts. My old Cubmaster is still around and kicking. He played a significant part in my life as he was also one of my baseball coaches and a youth sponsor at the church I grew up in. One of his son's was my best friend thru high school. He was Scoutmaster of a troop and I would have been in his troop if I'd stayed in. He and I attend the same church and his wife buys popcorn from my son for Christmas presents each year. He wants to be invited when my son earns Eagle.

Buffalo, I understand what you are saying, but the communication skills are learned thru presentation first and then by practice during 6 days with a patrol, troop and staff of pretty much strangers. The ticket itself is putting all of those skills including communication learned at WB into practice back in the real scouting world. It seems somewhat redundant to throw a TC in the mix as a single person outside your comfort zone to have to communicate with. While I am sure there is local flavor and tradition from course to course and council to council, I think the course are more alike than you probably do. Last fall I attended our regions Course Directors Development Conference and everyone seems to be on the same page as far as pledging to present the material as written. The environment and presentation is certainly different form course to course, but the content should be identical.

jet, My troop has around 60 registered as well. My son is a Chapter officer and I've driven/provided supervision to a fair number of elections. I can't speak for the other troops in our district. The lection team shows up, does their thing, counts the votes and leaves. I heard of one election team who witnessed the SM asking who wasn't OA and everyone who raised their hand went on the ballot. Since the election team has to take the SM's word that they meet the qualifications, there is little the team can do. In our own troop I have seen mixed results. We have one scout who is 17 and to my knowledge has never been on the ballot even though he technically met the requirements long ago. The SM has kept him off the ballot. He only camps or comes to meetings if his dad does. Despite our best efforts over the years, he will not stay in his patrol area and comes to the adult area and orbits his dad like a moon. His dad doesn't do a thing to help this situation. The only leadership the boy has been willing to take on has been repeated turns at librarian and his dad ends up sorting and organizing the work. He never assists his patrol in their duties, goes to lengths to avoid work and is never willing to step up in leadership. If/when an adult calls him on any of this, he gets defensive and smart mouthed. He doesn't have any kind of mental or emotional issues. He is just lazy and attached at the hip to an enabling father. The father on the other hand has served for years as our popcorn kernel, regularly dos FOS presentations and often plans the adult menu, purchases food and cooks on campouts. Dad has complained about son not being on the ballot. The SM decided to put him on the ballot to see what would happen with the thought that the boys (who are usually as underwhelmed with him as the adults) would reject him. He at least could tell the dad that he was on the ballot and not elected. To our surprise, he passed by one vote. We were dumbfounded. In our large troop, we usually have a pretty good idea of how the elections will turn out. The election teams do a good job of explaining the process and the the boys seem to be pretty descriminating in who they vote for. Once in a while they throw you a curve ball like this kid. It remains to be seen if he will actually do Ordeal after the callout in a couple of weeks.

I'm a little unclear on the TC position. I know it is a legitimate position, but we don't typically use it. The times I have heard of us using them was when we had out of council folks come to our courses and someone was found in their home council to serve as a TC because of distance issues. Another possibility would be if a TG left scouting or moved away. A ticket is an agreement between the TG and the participant. The TG has to apporve it. For me personally, it makes sense for the TG to follow thru to the end. But then we are a little different than other councils. Some of our smaller surrounding councils go multiple years without recruiting a viable course. We've been running two courses per year since at least 2000 if not longer. Following thru on the ticket for 18 months following the course is just an accepted expectation of the TG position. I'm not saying that it is the right way or only way to do it. I just don't see how having a person "outside your comfort zone" is beneficial since the ticket is developed by the participant and approved by the TG. To me it makes sense to follow thru unless circumstances dictate the need for a TC.

How many councils out there make use of Ticket Counselors? If our council, the Troop Guide handles this function for the 18 months following the course. Just curious?

Joe Bob, Had GM filed chapter 11 and reorganized, they could have kissed the UAW contracts good bye and started anew. They chose to take tax dollars instead.

I agree with Ron Paul in principle, but I don't think he personally would have been effective. Brent asks what the government does well. While I don't care for big government (see support for Ron Paul), there are a few things the government does indeed do well. I actually am old enough to remember back before my state had complete interstate highways from border to border and we had to go everywhere on those two lane blacktops. Stop and consider the amount of commerce and wealth that the interstate system has brought about since it's inception. Another thing they do well is military. Nuff said there. FDIC. I've been in bank data processing since 1981 and dealt with more bank and savings and loan failures and "take overs" by the FDIC then I'd like to admit to. Part of my job was to convert the data from failed banks to solvent banks who bought the proceeds and to prepare data from failed institutions to be handed over to solvent banks processed by competitor data processors. The FDIC came about to keep things like the old style run on banks from happening and to keep depositor confidence up and finance and commerce humming along. It is a system that works very well. What Obama and Geitner have proposed with investment firms and other financially based institutions is a similar process to provide best practices regulation and guard against people losing half their savings. It is NOT an evil plot of a socialist government taking over private industry like Hannity, Rush, Ingraham and others like to portray it. It is putting needed regulations in place to tame a wild beast based on proven existing programs that work. That is at least three things the our government that we elect do well. There are others. Is goverment bloated? Heck yeah! Does it need trimming? Heck yeah! I'm a conservative, but I'm an honest conservative. Obama is only following in the footsteps of what Bush got rolling before him. We are where we are today in large part due to what a conservative majority party gave us over the last 8 years. I hear talk radio pounding the theme of spending our children and grandchildrens money. They were strangly silent when people were raising the same concerns while congress was spending like drunken sailors eight years ago. Back then the conservative mantra was that deficeits didn't matter. Well yeah, they did. That is why they are now the opposition party and few people will give them the time of day.

To each his own I guess. I don't mind when the spin off is taking off ona different tangent. What I don't like is when a thread gets spun off on a very slight variation on a theme. I don't want to have to go 3 or 4 different places to read about the same subject when they could easily be discussed within one thread as a piece of a bigger picture. That's just me though.

raisin, Like any good boss, he delegates it to the underlings with the expertise.