SR540Beaver

I'm partial to Loch Ness chowder myself.

Oh, by the way.....I'm friends with a few folks here as well as Scouter-Terry on facebook as a result of the previously mentioned thread. If you are interested in being friends, PM me and I'll tell you how to find me on facebook.

I have 59 Scout friends on facebook. 27 of those are kids. A handful of those 27 have aged out. The youngest of these are a couple of 13 year olds. I did get a friend request from one of our new scouts who is 10. I did not accept his request because I personally feel he is too young for facebook and I (again, personally) won't interact with him there. Facebook is a great communication tool and amounts to little more than running into each other at a troop meeting and speaking to one another. Other than the ability to do private messages, everything you do or say on facebook can be viewed by anyone you are friends with. This did give me a teaching opportunity that I related in an earlier thread about one of our older boys who was angry at his parents and dropped an F bomb on facebook. He promptly removed it and we had a good discussion about leading by example.

raisinemright, You've never seen weather reporting unless you've lived in tornado alley. Some days the reporting resembles 9/11 reporting with all shows preempted on all local stations. I know this isn't the politics and issues forum, but the auto industry has not suffered a hostile takeover. As I recall, they were in danger of going out of business and came to the government with hat in hand looking for billions of dollars. When I go to the bank for a loan, it always comes with conditions and terms that I don't always like.......but if I want the money, have to accept. They could have done the right thing and filed chapter 11 and reorganized.

Spiney, Thanks for the additional info. You know, I am one of the most easy going and non-confrontational people you will ever meet. I was thankful when caller ID came along as I was one of those people who found it hard to hang up on a telemarketer. I'll be turning 52 shortly and wisdom has come with age. Life is short. I'm a volunteer who didn't sign up for grief. I ran our new scout program for a couple of years before swapping positions with my assistant last year. I had on dad who questioned everything, was never happy, wanted special consideration for his kid, etc. I finally had enough and actually very politely told him that here was how I was going to run the program with the full support of the SM and the CC and he might want to take some time and consider if this troop was the right fit for him and his son. I told him that they were wlecome to stay, but he was the ONLY parent I had these issues with and I wasn't getting paid enough to put up with it. They stayed for a while and then went off to start their own troop. I wished them luck when they did. Seen him several times afterwards and there are no hard feelings. Common sense and following G2SS and camp guidelines will keep kids safe. Perhaps it is time to tell him to get with the program or find one more to his liking. Politely of course.

It is overkill. That being said, if he wants to spend the $70 for a handheld model and donate it to the troop, accept it. You have a piece of battery powered equipment that will easily fit in the troop first aid kit and your worry wart is silenced. Since he is in a hotel room, he'll never know whether or not you used it. In these parts where thunderstorms and tornados are common occurrences, we have usually had to take cover from horizontal rain before lightning is anywhere close.

E, Our CD selects a QM and two AQM's to handle food procurement and equipment handling. The support staff made up of former CD's does all the kitchen work to free the QM's to do the heavy lifting. We do two courses a year and pretty much have it down to a science with a best practices approach. We know what table and chairs have to be moved back and forth between locations and presentations and what gear has to be available when. We have a matrix we have devised that gets tweaked for each course that goes far beyond the course schedule. The QM and AQM's all do a presentation during the course. All prepared meals are heat em up and eat em up with virtually nothing being from scratch, so the former CD's/support staff get a little nap time/down time built into their day. Now, back to the discussion at hand. Sorry for the second hijack.

OGE, You have no idea the irony in me quoting the Bard over Mr. Capps.

Just like my mortgage loan, that money comes with some conditions and expectations. You want the government to keep your failed business afloat, you got to expect some unwanted involvement. Neither a borrower nor a lender be. - Bill Shakespeare

A little of topic. Eamonn, who serves as support staff in your council's WB courses? In our council, it is previous CD's who do all the cooking, serving, KP and food draws during the outdoor experience. By being available, we don't have to hire kitchen staff, they are selected by the CD and serve as moral and practical support to the CD and staff and they don't take away from other folks getting to experience WB staff.

OGE, I fully support your self censoring and believe you should delete your posts far more other then you do!

Darn! The line just snapped. I'm off to look for tastier bugs and such.

OGE, Yes, but in fishing the line often snaps.

TheScout: "But how do you quickly and simply describe a person's political beliefs?" I've been participating the last two days in a thread over at Hannity.com where the original poster asked if Libertarians have a real ideology or are just folks who want to stand on the sidelines and complain. He also believes their beliefs fall more in line with liberals than conservatives. He has some false pre-conceived notions of what a libertarian is. The libertarians on the forum have been schooling him and kicking his butt at every turn as to what they believe and stand for. He is still arguing with them about what they are. That is the problem with labels. Here are people who identify themselves as libertarians and clearly state their views while a guy with a preconceived and incorrect notion is trying to demonize them and make them fit his definition. A large part of the devolving of political discourse in this nation is the move to sound bite politics and labels.

Pack, Do you think the fisherman has yet realized that the fish has wrapped the line around a submerged limb? The tug of war can go on until one or the other tires of the game.

Hal, Thanks for the update!

I just call them people.

Boy-led. Our home troop SM was our 2005 Jambo SM. He runs a pretty tight ship at home at at Jambo. By that, I mean he is a strong believer in boy-led, but he also has standards like full uniform and tucking your shirt in and wearing socks and such. Being in the Jambo troop was a real eye opener for boys who came from laid back, easy going antything goes troops back home. We did however put a lot of effort into the patrol structures and youth leadership and was very boy-led. One of our sister Jambo troops was very adult-led. So Lisa, even with trained adults who are supposed to get it, Jambo wasn't thant much different from what you see back in your district or council......a little bit of everything. A for instance. Our council was very strict on clothing. You need three full class A uniforms. The only thing not uniform was a swimming suit, sleep clothes and underwear. We had troop t-shirts for class B at Jambo. Don't bring civvies. End of story. While there though, we say lots of kids wearing their giant legged baggy pants with chains hanging off of them and black t-shirts with skulls on them. Guess their council and SM didn't care.

Scout, The problem is that people are more nuanced than labels. I often refer to myself as an independent. Neither conservative or liberal really describes me. I'm conservative in that I am for the death penalty. Not because I believe it is a deterrant of any kind, but because I believe there are some crimes that deserve death. On the other hand, I could be called a liberal because I have mixed feelings on abortion. I don't see it as the black and white murder issue that some folks make it. While I might be "against" it, I would be hard pressed not to consider it if I had a 14 year old daughter who got pregnant. I have a libertarian bent to me in that I think the government needs to stay out of people's business and not legislate morality. I have my personal and religious beliefs concerning homosexuality, drugs, etc. but I don't think the government should be telling people who they can or can't love or putting them in jail if they decide to ruin their bodies and life. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. I think the vast majority of Americans are pragmatic and live in the middle ground somewhere as opposed to the idelogical edges. The folks who enjoy politics as a hobby or the folks who are true ideological believers tend to be those who want to put people into categories and end up painting with a broad brush and demonizing those on the opposite side. The majority of Americans just care about getting from one day to the next as opposed to all the hand wringing and point scoring. They typically defy labels.

Scout, Here is the issue with labels. What folks like Levin call a modern liberal or statist is a really small microcosm that is used to paint a larger group he opposes. Kind of like saying conservatives are warmongering imperialists. That is true for a small group, but not in general. I don't live on the east coast or west coast where maybe a larger population of wingnuts live. Democrat/liberals in Oklahoma don't always fit into the extreme edge that folks like Hannity, Rush, Levin or Coulter like to hold out as the rule rather than the exception. While Oklahoma votes Republican nationally, we often vote Democrat within the state. My parents were life long Democrats. That being said, there was nothing "liberal" about them. My dad was a Marine in WWII. He was a Deacon and we were in our Baptist church every time the doors were open. We were expected to make decent grades and get a job to pull our weight when we were old enough. We knew what would happen to us if we tried using drugs, alcohol, tobacco or vulgar language. Dad believed in self reliance. When the family grew, he added a den, master bedroom and bathroom onto the house single handed. The ONLY thing he didn't do was pour the concrete for the foundation. You couldn't get much more traditional than my dad. My whole neighborhood was basically the same way. While times have changed, the current Democrats/liberals I know don't fit the evil profile that talk radio and pundits apply to them. In my view, the descriptions applied to the labels are always the extreme edge for either the good or the bad depending on who is defining who. Labels are usually caricatures rather than accurate descriptors. That is why I disagree with Levin's definition. The man has an axe to grind and a book to sell.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

The Scout, The term "conservative" can also mean so many different things. There are the social conservatives who could also be labeled statists. You have the fiscal conservatives who want fiscal responsibility and could care less what people do in the privacy of their own home. You have the libertarians who get confused as liberals by the social conservatives and on it goes. The term conservative just doesn't mean what it once meant as the "conservative" Republican party has many warring factions all claiming the conservative mantle. Here is Mark Levin's definition of "statist" from his new book. The Modern Liberal believes in the supremacy of the state.... For the Modern Liberal, the individual's imperfection and personal pursuits impede the objectives of a utopian state. In this, Modern Liberalism promotes what French Historian Alexis de Tocqueville called soft tyranny, which becomes increasingly more oppressive, partially leading to hard tyranny.... As the word "liberal" is, in its classical meaning, the opposite of authoritarian, it is more accurate, therefore, to characterize the Modern Liberal as a Statist. (p.4) Personally, I don't buy his description as I know many, many "liberals" Democrats who are hard working, traditionalist, business owners who believe in self reliance over a nanny state.

I guess alot of it depends on troop size. I've been in a troop where we started with 5 boys. Two or three adults was plenty to transport boys and equipment. We certainly didn't need both parents and all siblings along. That being said, the troop I now serve has around 55 boys. There is no way that two or three adults can transport all the equipment and boys. We need adults and we welcome what we need. We might have 15 adults and a small handful of siblings on a campout. We have 7 or 8 ASM's. Not all of them come on every single campout. We have many committee members. On a campout, the adults act as a patrol and have their own area and do their own cooking. We even have a committee member who serves as the adult PL. Her husband is the committee chair and they are at 95% of the campouts. They often bring their their 7 year old twins if grandparents are not available to babysit. That is our scenario. It in no way impedes our program or affects the patrols. Adults are in their own area and know they are to leave the patrols alone. If an adult has need to enter a patrol site, they must ask permission. Boys know that the adult area is off limits and if a boy has need to enter, they must ask permission. Any siblings stay in the adult area. We have boy planners for each outing and they have an adult mentor who assists if/where needed in the planning process. Long before we leave for a campout, there is a daily schedule for what that outings program will consist of. It is the boys program and they run it. If it is something like climbing and rappeling, we can't do it all at once because of our size. We have camped at a scout property before and adults would drive one or two patrols at a time about 20 miles to the rock wall they had to make a short hike into to climb. The scouts back in camp were doing other planned activities. Again, the boys are running the program and only the adults needed are facilitating. The rest can do what they want or hang out in the adult only area. Having adults and siblings in camp does not have to affect the scout's program in any way as we keep them seperated. Works for us. One added note. When the SM took the troop about 8 or 9 years ago, he was on the phone on Thursday nights begging an adult to come along for two deep leadership. Based on that experience, he doesn't turn down any adult wanting to come camping. We need them for transportation and to pull one of our two trailers.

OGE, I was flipping thru the radio dial on the way home yesterday and Sean Hannity had his good buddy Mark Levin on. Levin has written a new book called Liberty and Tyranny. In it, he goes into great detail in describing what has to date been known as "liberals" as now being called "statists" as he says it more acurately describes those evil, tree hugging, unbathed, welfare check, America hating liberals. You know, the guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

Brent, Good on ya! Our troop does a high adventure trip every year and sent two crews to NT back in 2007. Our SM had done NT at least once before, so he knew how to put together the shakedowns and get the boys ready. My son absolutely loved it. We have at least one crew going this summer.

Lisa, Thanks for the compliment! I've never been called the cream of the crop before. I was selected to serve as an ASM in 2005. My son was 12 for that Jambo. He signed up for 2010 when he will be 17.5. Since the price had increased an additional $1100 over 2005, I did not throw my hat in the ring for consideration. One of the ASM's for our three cntingent troops decided to drop out for financial reasons and I got asked to replace him. I'm not sure I'd agree with your comment about the boys being among the strongest scouts. Some are and really want to go and some are not and really want to go and some have parents who really want them to go. If they are willing to fill out an application and plop down the money, they can go. Let me tell you from an adult perspective, you get a little bit of everything. You get some super kids that step up to leadership and you get some real stinkers that you almost have to leash to keep from losing or from getting in trouble. I think it probably does give them a different perspective to see how large the scouting movement is and to be exposed to all the possibilities. There is a merit badge midway that has representation for every MB. There is an area where every association that supports a Religious Emblem is represented. There are all sorts of activities in the action areas like mountain boarding, obstacle courses, climbing walls, etc. For guys that come from maybe a small troop or a laid back troop that doesn't have as many resources and adult support that a big troop does, it probably does have an larger impact. All that being said, it is somewhat like a vacation too. Yes you are in a tent and living out of a bag and showering in 2x4 and black plastic make shift shower houses.....but you also live in neighborhoods of tents with lanes running east and west and south and north just like streets. You have trading posts full of candy, snacks and pop. You have a bus system that can transport you wherever you want to go. Does it make them stay in longer? Like anything else, it can. I've seen kids get involved in OA, NYLT, staffing summer camp, etc. get fired back up and recommitted. Jamboree can do the same thing. However, I know number of scouts from our 2005 Jambo troop who are no longer in scouting. We had one kid whose dad was one of my fellow ASM's both in our home troop and in the Jambo troop. The boy had LOVED Cubs and about the first 6 months of Boy Scouts. Then he decided he wanted to be a skateboarder and our 1.5 hour meeting per week and one campout a month was cutting into his board time. He wanted out before we went to Jambo and was counting the days until Jambo was over so he could quit. He probably stayed in for a month after Jambo before finally dropping for good. Bottom line, it depends on the kid. I will say, I don't know a single kid that went that didn't have an absolute blast. They all grew from the experience. It truly is a once (or twice if you are lucky) in a lifetime experience. But it isn't a make or break deal. There are much cheaper ways to revitalize a boy. If a family can afford it and/or raise the funds, I highly recommend sending any boy who is interested.