SR540Beaver

thescout, I support free speech, but free speech has it limitations depending on where you are attempting to speak freely. Come into my home and tell my wife she has a big butt (which she doesn't) and you'll likely find yourself with a split lip.......before I get hold of you. Same applies with "public" forums on the internet. Even though they are public, they are owned by someone and they get to decide what you can and can not say on their forum. I was one of those folks who PM'ed the majority of the mods as well as sent a message to Scouter-Terry fhru facebook to alert them to a mischevious troll on the forum who was trying to be disruptive and shock people. Regardless of your personal stance on freedom of speech, that only exists here based on what the owner and the mods decide. They didn't seem to care to have a user with a vulgar name who posted about sex with children and killing Jews. You might find that to be acceptable speech on a public Scouting forum, but you don't get to decide. They took the course of action they deemed appropriate.

pack, I only got one. I came to scouter.com and then clicked on todays active topics. It was when it went to that page that I got a pop up, but nonesince.

bksct, Some friendly advice. Use your shift key and put a period att the end of your sentences if you want folks to read your posts.

IE 7 and just got my first one too.

Brent, Simple. You make sure that everyone knows in no uncertain terms that even though the trip HAD been planned as a den outing, it is not allowed under scout rules and the Pack in no way endorses the event or has anything to do with it. As a den outing, it is cancelled and taken off of the Pack calendar. At that point, the individuals wanting to participate are free to go ahead with their personal plans and go rafting.

Back to the original post. If BSA does away with allowing adult free outings, that would be a sad day. However, I would venture to say that the frequency of such outings within a given unit and the number of units who allow them is probably very small and would not have much effect on the scouting community as a whole........right or wrong.

Brent, Like I said in my earlier post, if it is friends who want to go do something on their own on a Saturday and they talk to each other where they see each other.....at the troop meeting, no big deal. I've asked scouter friends to go out to eat or to a sporting event because the only place I know them and see them is at scouts. Those are personal plans. It is when the Wolf Patrol chaalenges the Moose Patrol to a laser tag showdown and the SM things it would be a great idea to invite all the other patrols that you get into it becoming a troop activity regardless of whether you do it officially or skirt the issue by calling it unofficial. That is when the unit starts "owning" the activity. A few buds talking privately at the troop meeting to make personal weekend plans among themselves is not a unit activity. This isn't hard guys. If the rules say it is off limits, you don't make an announcement, plan it, organize transportation, facilitate it, etc. If Billy asks me if he can make an announcement to the troop, the answer would be no, but you can personally invite whoever you want as time allows.

Apples and oranges Beavah. Announcing an opportunity that the charter sponsors aside from scouting is not unit activity. It is merely kids participating in different things. No different than a kid being on the debate team at school and playing softball for his church rec team. Same kid, two different organizations and activities. Girl Scouts being part of a Venturing Crew are two different organizations that have nothing to do with one another. What the Crew does on outings has nothing to do with their membership in GSUSA. When a troop decides that a policy or rule of the BSA is stupid and therefore we'll just go ahead and plan it and organize it and facilitate it and just (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) call it "unofficial", is teaching boys to be untrustworthy. Again, if Billy calls Timmy and says, "hey you want to go fishing down at the creek with Tommy and Sam" and Timmy says, "nah, how about laser tag instead".....is a totally different animal. The fact that the boys all belong to the same school, church or boy scout troop is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the troop or patrol. The difference is that friends can make up their own rules and do whatever they want, whenever they want. If they happen to talk to each other at a troop meeting instead of over the phone, no biggie. It is when they discuss it as a patrol activity and the rest of the troop picks up on it along with the adult leadership and it starts getting planned as a troop related activity that you start flirting with rule bending. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud guys. I personally love playing laser tag. I disagree with the BSA's stance on it. But I will never allow it to be a patrol or troop activity.....official or unofficial. The boys can do it as a group of friends on their own time.

Narraticong, We have one scouter in our troop who uses facebook and twitter. When he and his family are out and about, they like to play the "North Face count" game. They walk thru the mall or sit in a restaurant and count all the city folks wearing their North Face fleece and jackets and then he posts it on twitter and facebook. My son likewise gets a kick out of all the non-outdoorsy kids at high school who wear North Face.

Of course kids and adults can go play laser tag or camp on their own. If Billy calls Tommy, Sam and Harry (all from the same patrol or troop) on Saturday morning and says, hey, you want to go play some laser tag, that is one thing. If SM Smokeshifter makes an announcement during a troop meeting that there will be a bunch of guys (wink, wink) going to play laser tag this Saturday and ASM's Baconstretcher and Firestarter will be driving (nudge, nudge) if anyone needs a ride, and make sure you don't wear a scouting shirt because this isn't a scouting event (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that is something totally different. Too often the later is what happens......just like the infamous sod surfing from a few years back. The whole troop went and stayed in troop tents and cooked on troop gear from the troop trailer on a scheduled weekend, but it was an "unofficial" event. A few guys getting calling each other and getting together to camp or play laser tag is fine. If/when it includes a large portion of the troop and gets planned/organized at a meeting with a caveat that it is unofficial, that is indeed teaching boys how to skirt the rules and policies and is counterproductive to the oath and law.

I have not compared the tents, so I can't really answer that. I do want to throw out this one caveat though. Just because they are mande in the same factory, doesn't necessarily tell you anything. There are only a small handful of battery manufacturers in the US who make all the different brands of batteries available.....but to the companies standards. They are not all the same even though they are made at the same place. That being said, our troop has used Alps backpacking tents for high adventure trips and gotten good service out of them. I do know that our Jambo troops will be using Alps in 2010 instead of BSA wall tents for the first time.

JFL49, I don't disagree with you. Obviously, at the WBCDC, they were addressing the prerequisite training for WB. So from that standpoint, TE replaces TDC. They may have said that TDC would continue and I just missed it.

JFL49, I attended the Wood Badge Course Director conference last fall. It was my understanding that Trainers Edge does indeed replace TDC. It will be required for all WB and NYLT staff.

HWMBO is the one who balances the checkbook and she gets irratated with me bringing her all the debit card receipts from my purchases. She encourages me to carry more cash. I typically get $60 out of the ATM near work and use it for lunch, sodas and odds and ends. When I run out in a week or so, I get more. If it costs more than $10, I usually use my debit card. I couldn't tell you the last time I wrote a check for anything. I would find it impossible to go without any cash at all. Too many of the lunch counters downtown that are only open for lunch only accept cash. Then you have those pesky vending machines.

I apologize if I'm jumping in and going off topic. I have not had time to read thru the whole thread, but this is a subject near anddear to my heart. While I agree that the election criteria might be too easy or too broad, a good election process should help guard against some of the issues. The Chapter should be approachin the SM concerning getting an election on the troop schedule. They should provide the SM with the criteria and urge him to use his veto power in creating the unit's ballot. Then when election time comes, it should be presided over by a Chapter election team who explains in DETAIL to the boys how the voting process works and the things they should take into consideration when voting. A good election team is worth their weight in gold. I've seen boys go on a ballot who never should have. I've seen boys get elected who shouldn't. I've also seen the process work and boys not get elected who were included on the ballot. I've seen an SM go around the room at election time and ask who was and was not in OA and make a ballot of all those who were not. An election team should always have a knowledable adult along to work out any issues. A unit should never hold an election without an election team and they should always adhere to the election process. That is about the only safeguard there is in getting deserving members.

Wow Barry! You just described our SM pretty well as the bad cop. I kind of like getting to play the good cop as an ASM. Right or wrong, our troop high adventure trips are by invitation only. The SM is very experienced at high adventure and knows what to look for in determinig if a boy can cut it or not. You don't automatically make the cut based on age and rank. This has rankled more than a few parents in our troop as they feel the SM is playing favorites. Usually what is at play here is a parent who wants their immature child to go on a high adventure trip in the hopes that it will help him mature and settle down. The SM's position is that they have to do that before going on the trip to prove they are ready. He has seen kids melt down 6 days into a 10 day trip and it ruins the trip for the whole crew. If a boy's past action makes the SM believe he can't handle it, he is not invited. You prove yourself at home first before you get the chance to prove yourself on the trail. When our troop does Philmont or a troop planned trek somewhere else, there are up to 5 shake down trips planned. Attendance is a requirement. On occasion, the SM will allow one of these boys to sign up and participate if the parents really push hard. Some have proven themselves, but many have dropped early. One caveat the SM gives at the outset is that the parent wanting their son to go is not sufficient reason for a boy to participate. If the boy is forced to come and shows little enthusiasm, he will be cut. Maturity and skill trump age and rank every time with our high adventure trips.

Pack, Aggressive CO? Now there is an oxymoron! I've heard they exist in the wild, but they are extremely rare.

scoutldr, I agree with you on beingg user friendly. In my previous district, our training chair offered many classes at roundtable so folks could kill two birds with one stone rather than having to take a part of a saturday. Some of the districts will do a training blitz were many trainings are offered so people don't have to find individual classes on individual days. About half of our districts are in the metro area and if one districts schedule doesn't fit your needs, chances are another one will. Eagledad (Barry) used to do SM specific two districts over from me. I believe he split it up with half on Friday night and the other half on saturday morning. That way, folks didn't have to sit thru 8 straight hours of class and still had half a saturday for other things. I don't know that you could do WB in modules. There is so much that would be lost doing it that way. Part of the experience is working and interacting as individual patrols and as a troop. WB is more than a collection of presentations. Cost and time for WB is an honest factor. But by splitting a week long course into two weekends as most councils now do allows for people to onlt need two fridays off a few weeks apart instead of a full week. This really helps with little ones at home as the spouse will most likely be home with the kids afteer school on friday and then the rest of the weekend. Many councils have scholarships for those needing financial help and many units choose to help pay for leaders willing to go.

I know I've said it here a thousand times before. I'm a Southern Baptist. I have a degree in religion. I've actually spent a short time in the ministry. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it. All of that being said, I understand what the term non-sectarian means. On more than one occasion, I have been approached by a small group of adults in our troop looking for me to support their cause. Seems they believe that the BSA is a Christian organization and that they and their sons are being discriminated against because the Chaplain teaches to end prayers with a simple "amen" rather than "in Jesus name, amen". We are quashing their religious beliefs in favor of people who don't say in Jesus name. Their reasoning is that our charter is a Methodist church and BSA is a Christian organization and that some scouters have twisted things in such a way as to discriminate against Christians. Do what? I actually asked them, what part of non-sectarian do you not understand. To them, it meant that the BSA didn't discriminate between different denominations of Christianity. I just looked at them with a blank stare. These are highly educated folks I'm dealing with too. I asked them how they were going to deal with the folks who demanded that we say "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" over "in Jesus name". I got back the same blank stare I had given them. I told them we had much bigger fish to fry than haggling over semantics, but they disagreed. It kind of ticks us Christian church going scouters off that some of our fellow Christian scouters think we are intolerant of Christianity and denying their sons to follow their beliefs.

scoutldr, You know, there are some who complain that WB has been watered down. Back in the day, it was by invitation only. You had to be deemed worthy. Plus, there were different WB course depending on which program you were in. The issues we are discussing in this thread are not new to scouting. The revamping of WB was an attempt to give the folks what they wanted and needed.....leadership and management skills. WB today is a course that can be taken as soon as you have taken the prerequsite training....some of which can now be done online at a person's leisure. I know for a fact in our council that we specifically target Cub leaders for WB. Why? Because they are newer at the scouting game and Pack's don't always have the same level of continuity that Troops have. Pack's tend to reinvent the wheel. Think what an advantage it is for Pack leadership to have the whole bag of WB skills in their back pocket instead of having to try to figure out how to handle all those different personalities getting exposed to scouting for the first time. My son joined Cubs in September of 2002. I became Pack Committee Chair in April of 2003. I went to WB in September of 2003. It was one of the best scouting decisions I ever made.

You know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The training is available, but sometimes even those who go to training fail to put it into practice. That is on them, not a lack of training material on the BSA side. From the much maligned "management theory" Wood Badge course: Listening to Learn Stages of Team Development Communication Project Planning Leading EDGE/Teaching EDGE Leading Change Valuing People and Leveraging Diversity Problem Solving and Decision Making Managing Conflict Coaching and Mentoring Self Assessment The tools are readily available, it just depends on how the craftsman applies them.

jet, We can give you advice, but it ultimately comes down to what your TG agrees to. Your ticket is personal to you and has to be approved by your TG. Seek their advice and you'll be ahead of the game.

In addition to the SM, ASM's and MBC's, here are the adult positions in our troop. By spreading the work out, no one gets TOO much power and no one gets burned out. Each position comes with a job description, responsibilities, training requirments and is a one year term that must be reaffirmed annually. No adult position takes any responsibility away from the boy led program as many of the jobs are mentoring or advising boys rather than doing the job for them. These positions are: Troop Committee Chair, Secretary, Treasurer, Assistant Treasurer, Outings Coordinator, Advancement Chair, Registration and Membership, Fundraising Coordinator, Assistant Fundraising Coordinator, Equipment Coordinator (Adult Quartermaster), Board of Review Coordinator, Training Coordinator, Chaplain, Event Mentor (Specific Parents or Scouters), Adult Patrol Leader, Medical and Permission Forms Coordinator, Merit Badge Advancement Coordinator, Adult Award & Recognition Coordinator, Court of Honor Coordinator, Popcorn Kernel, Troop Webmaster and Communications, Merit Badge Fair Coordinator, Service Project Coordinator, Troop Order of the Arrow Advisor, Life to Eagle Advisor and best of all PARENT. The parent job description reads as follows: Encourage their son to participate fully in Scouting events and to make continual progress toward rank advancement. Counsel their sons on appropriate behavior. Ensure that scouts arrive at troop events on time. Pick up scouts on time so that adult leaders do not have to wait. Assist when possible in transportation of groups of scouts. Assist where appropriate as merit badge counselors. Participate in troop oversight as Committee Members, Assistant Scoutmasters, or other volunteer responsibilities. Be willing to assist Committee Members in their duties. Assist in fundraising efforts.

Lisa, I'm unclear on something. I get from your original post that you don't like this. What I didn't fully understand is if it is really an issue for the VP or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for this much adult involvement. I just didn't get the sense tha the boys were against it. I think in every troop, there is a subset of scouts and adults who really long for a more challenging and adventerous program while others are perfectly fine with car camping. Is part of it because the opportunity has now presented itself that some of these adults want to be a part of it? Again, are the boys OK with it or not. If not, then I think a seperate trail is in order once everyone gets to the location. Everyone is happy because they get to do high adventure, just in their own group. It is a win win. The boys get independence and you still have adults willing to fill adult needs like transportation in the troop. Lets face it, we can't exist without the adults. We have over 50 boys in our troop. It takes a good number of vehicles to get where we are going. While we teach the adults to stay out of the boy led program, we work hard to keep from alienating them.

SMBradley, How about approaching staff uniforming the BSA way. We lead by example. Whatever the staff wears, they do so uniformly. My son staffs cub resident camp. In their case, they have a red polo with the camp logo embrodiered on it along with Boy Scout shorts and socks. That is boys and girls. When they go class A, the guys wear their scout or crew uniform and the gilrs wear their crew uniform. They also have a uniform staff hat that they always wear that makes them stand out. Whatever they wear, it needs to be uniform and worn properly. It goes a long way to making the staff look good to all who come as campers as well as setting the example.