SR540Beaver

Stosh, Do you always work in such black and white, absolute terms? You assumed an awful lot from my post. Just so you know, our boys plan their entire calendar. It usually goes like this. They list what they want to do for the coming year. Then they list where they would like to go. Then they match up places they want to go with the things they want to do. Then they match up a month to a place/activity. Kind of silly to go swimming in January or cold weather camping in August. Now they have their basic plan on paper. This is where the SM works with them to select the dates for each month. Of the 60 boys on our roster, at least a dozen are going to National Jamboree along with myself and another ASM. We would most likely schedule our July outing around that so it doesn't conflict. Our troop does a high adventure trip to Philmont, Northern Tier or a self-desiged trip each year. We typically schedule around those dates as we have one to two crews including adult leaders gone on those trips. We support OA and we try not to schedule our outings when there are Ordeals or Fellowships. I think you get the picture. I never said that we cancel a trip. The only time we cancel a trip is when the SM decides there is too much ice on the road and it has to be pretty thick for him to cancel even then. what I said is that it takes a good number of vehicles to transport a large troop and if the adults are not available, the trip can't happen. That is why the SM works with the PLC on scheduling dates during the annual planning meeting. It's common sense and doesn't detract at all from being boy-led. In fact, it facilitates successful boy-led.

Lisa, I understand what you are saying and agree. Let me throw a little different twist. Each election cycle, our boys actually have to fill out an application for a POR and turn it into the SM. They list three different POR's they are interested in, in the order they desire them. They have to explain why they believe they are qualified for the job. They are also supplied with a document outlining the job description of all the POR's and the uniforming, behavior and attendance expectations for the POR. There is a place on that application for the parent to sign saying they will support their son. That is mainly there as a reminder to the parent that their non-driving son can only succeed in his POR with their cooperation to get him there in a timely fashion and to make sure he makes all the meetings and outings even when something more fun might come along. In a sense, it is a partnering with the parent to help guide their sons to do the right thing and live up to the responsibility they sought thru the POR. Edited: I just reread your post and I think we are saying the same thing. Ultimately, it is the boy's responsibility to fulfill the POR. Just like school work, we do desire for the parent to reinforce the guidance we provide, but even when they do, sometimes we have a boy who just won't get the job done. The main thing a parent can do to help is commit themselves to make sure Tom, Dick or Harry is transported where he needs to be when he needs to be and counsels him to make the right choice when he has a conflict in activities or wants to wear his sweatpants with his uniform shirt.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Eagle92, One comment about adults planning the dates over the boys. If the boys plan when adults (most specifically the SM and ASM's) can't go, the boys aren't going either. That is really the only input our adults have in the boy's annual planning process. We are a troop with a roster of 60 and have 40+ on any given outing. It takes a lot of adults to transport that many boys and equipment and we are sensitive to the adult's schedules when planning dates.

No one has to list their religious views on facebook unless they choose to do so......just like you don't have to list your relationship, birthday, political views, schools, job, interests, etc.

Hey Barry! I mentioned our council's course back on page one on Wednesday. It is OST - Outdoors Skills Training. Like you, I've been too busy to take it, but I've never heard anything but good things about it.

In the first two troops I was associated with as an adult scouter, adults were addresses by their first name. In the troop I currently serve, adults are addresses as Mr. or Mrs. I can honestly say that it makes a world of difference in attitude and discipline.

Are you sure they aren't just "big boned" boys, cuase that is my story and I'm sticking to it.

Surely you guys have heard of the Philmont Leadership Challenge haven't you? Yes. I know it is only offered at Philmont. In the beginning, so was Woodbadge. Then it moved into the councils. http://www.philmontleadershipchallenge.org/ Ever since the resounding success of the National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience, which allows youth to hone their NYLT skills in an action packed adventure that teaches much more than Ranger skills, adults have been clamoring for a version of this course that they can attend. And here it is! The Philmont Leadership Challenge will allow Wood Badge (WB) trained adults to fully integrate the lessons learned on the Hill into their daily lives. Like our youth, you will live under the shadow of the Tooth of Time, and learn new skills based on Philmont Ranger Training. And, like the youth, you will discover this: True leadership is about helping others succeed. There is no classroom work in this course! The Philmont Leadership Challenge (PLC) is built around a series of modules emphasizing advanced outdoor skills, including COPE, Wilderness First Aid, Advanced GPS use, and Search and Rescue Techniques. Your Wood Badge skills will come to life, as they are used in each and every module to master the challenges of the day. These skills move from an academic exercise to become a part of your day to day living, your day to day thinking, and of your very being. You live and practice Leave No Trace Principles, including a backpack trip into the pristine Lovers Leap Meadow camp. The History of Leadership Training, Philmont and the old West come alive. But most importantly, we underscore ethical decision making and living a life of servant leadership. Our motto will be the same as for the boys, which is Primus Inter Pares, or First Among Equals. And we too, will learn and live the Leader Oath: I do hereby promise, on my honor as a Scout, that I will be a servant leader primus inter pares', first among equals, helping others grow and succeed for the good of all. As the sun dial measures the passage of time, so will my service be measured over time by my impact on others................

Here is the one thing I can guarantee you if an AOLS class was developed by the BSA. Someone, somewhere, most likely here would complain about how sorry of a course it is. There would be adults who would say, been there, done that, can I test out just like has been said about IOLS and WB. They would find it either not intense enough, doesn't cover what they thing it should or a waste of their time. Personally, I like the idea of a council designed supplemental class. That is what we have. It is called OST - Outdoor Skills Training and it is held over two weekends, twice a year. It is a popular course and covers more advanced subjects beyond IOLS. I think it is popular in part because there is some pride in ownership since it is OUR own course designed and taught by experienced volunteers. If there was a nationally ordained syllabus, the naysayers would complain about how weak and watered down and risk aversive it is and how it doesn't really cover what they think should be in it. I've taught WB and IOLS and I think there is a need for standardized training. I also think there is a need for homegrown supplemental training that can target skills needed for your particular neck of the woods.

E, I never saw the old course. I have staffed two 21st Century and am on staff for a third. The patrols camp together, cook together, eat together, learn together, travel together, do program patrol together, do service patrol together, do a patrol presentation together, etc. They send their PL to the daily troop PLC who reports back to them at their daily patrol meeting. They even create a patrol totem and yell and have an outside patrol meeting between weekends. Nope, no patrol method there at all.

OGE, Uh, you might want to sit down for this little discussion about "harvesting".......

Gern, Explain to me how EDGE (Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable) is an indoor, board room management technique. All it is is a fancy name given to a time honored way of teaching a skill ANYWHERE. When we set up an axe yard on a campout to earn the Totin Chit or how to build fires to earn the Firemn Chit, we are using EDGE. Typically an older boy explains it to the scouts, then he demonstrates it to them himself, then he guides them as they try it themselves and finally he enables them to practice and master their new skill. Thru the example of the older boy's leadership, they will in turn do the same for scouts entering the program after them. EDGE can be applied anywhere in any situation. Don't let the naysayers who have never taken 21st Century WB or a fancy acronym for an age old technique throw you. Who in the world sees Scouting as anything but an outdoor program? Does WB really have to get that elementary? kcs_hiker, No, they have not changed the syllabus. What you've experienced here is one particular person with a fixation who talks about a course he has never partaken of. The patrol method is still alive and well in Scout training materials regardless of what some folks say.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

OGE, What sport would there be in that?

Let me clarify, I never menat to give the impression that boys would go to summer camp and stay with their unit while doing NYLT. I know our property and know there are not enough facilities to run NYLT segregated from the rest of camp. What I found out over the weekend is that the council is adding a 7th week and it will be a specialized week that concentrates on horsemanship, auqatics and NYLT. The NYLT staff will still be volunteer recruits and the course will be run by the week. NYLT in the past has been done at a property where cub resident camp and our two WB courses per year have been held. By moving it to the property where they do Boy Scout summer camp and tacking it on as a 7th week, the camp is already prepared to receive folks, there is maintenance staff on hand who are preparing for shutting down camp and they can retain the kitchen staff to provide the needed food service. It solves some logistical issues, moves the program to the Boy Scout intensive property and allows them to continue running it segregated. Personally, I'd like to see NYLT, WB and OA Ordeals rotated between our four properties instead of being ingrained in one place or another out of "tradition", but that is another issue altogether.

Sherm, Good question. This year I believe there were 30 youth who attended and there was no real promotion other than word of mouth. It has much greater potential as our council covers 24 counties of Oklahoma and serve over 30,000 youth in all programs. I'm wondering if the thinking is that by doing it at summer camp, it will accomplish a couple of objectives. It will get more troops to stay in council for summer camp. It will get greater participation since boys will already be coming to camp and it won't be another week out of their summer.

American political discourse has always been contentious, but the advent of cable news networks looking for material to broadcast 24 hours a day has basically killed any mature and civil discussion that used to exist. Talk radio and the interent has not helped matters any as they don't have to live up to any editorial standards and can pretty much spout anything the want. And before someone accuses me of being a screaming liberal.....which I'm not.....my comments cover both ends of the spectrum.

Forgot to say, we had a national scouter their as the keynote speaker. He was Joe Glasscock of the Boy Scouts of America National Council, Program Impact Department, Volunteer Development Team Leader. I did hear him say that NYLT will be opened up to Venturing and I believe he said Sea Scouts as well. I asked the council training chair to confirm that as well in the email I sent.

I must have been engrossed in my BBQ sandwich when the SE supposedly made this announcement at the Council Program Kickoff last night. I was told he said that we would model off of another council and offer NYLT during summer camp. In the past we have offered a single NYLT course in late July after summer camps and high adventure contingent trips are over. My son has staffed NYLT the past two summers and I've seen the syllabus. I've staffed WB twice and will be staffing again this coming spring. I sent an email to a friend of mine who is the council training chair for confirmation, but have not heard back yet. My questions are these. Is anyone familar with this approach and do they have experience with it? How do you fit this in at a camp where summer camp is going on? It seems that you would need a whole separate program area away from the main camp. How do you staff multiple weeks of the course? Do you have the same SM and staff the whole time or have multiple staffs developing during the spring? If it is at summer camp and the same staff does it for four weeks, are they paid staff members? Doing a simple Goolge search, the only council I can find that does this is the Blue Ridge Council which holds four courses back to back at their summer camp. http://www.bsa-brmc.org/foxfire.htm

I'll agree that the supplex shirt doesn't look as "nice" as the poly/cotton blend does. That being said, I can sweat in a snowstorm....literally. I remember the 2005 Jamboree where it was 100 degrees in the shade with about 150% humidity. The t-shirts our council bought for the contingent was 100% cotton. I stayed wet about 20 hours per day from the time I arrived at Jambo until I left. I'll be wearing nothing but quick drying synthetic t-shirts and the supplex uniform at Jambo in 2010.

Got an email this morning from a scouter in the troop with a link to the top 10 camping gadgets for geeks. http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/top-10-camping-gadgets-for-geeks/

I remember watching that a couple of years ago. As I recall, it appeared there was very little training, experience or understanding of what they would be facing. In short, they were not prepared.

If you try it on, you might be surprised how much more comfortable the cut is and how functional the pockets are. I have both and even though I wear the old for many things, the centennial uniform wins hands down in my opinion.

In the OA, you are a youth until 21. So while you might be an adult in the troop, you'll still be a youth for NOAC.

OGE, I'm pretty sure you will have your membership card revoked.

NE, I don't have that problem with the centennial shirt tails. I like my shirt a little roomier and wear a xxxl when I really could get by with an xxl. I'm 6'2", but my shirt tail hangs well over my butt and I actually have a little trouble getting it all tucked in neatly.