SR540Beaver

This isn't meant to be confrontational. I'm all for improvising and being creative within the framework laid out by the BSA. But the framework is what defines Scouting. If I have a team I call a baseball team but we choose to kick a soccer ball at the plate instead of hitting a baseball with a bat, I really don't have a baseball team do I? Yeah, we get three kicks and we are out. Yeah, we run the bases and can steal bases. Yeah, we wear a baseball uniform. But we kick the ball with our feet and catch the ball with our hands instead of gloves. What are we really, a baseball team or a bunch of guys playing by our own rules instead of the league rules? Recently we had a boy who had a BOR scheduled and we ended up only having 2 committee members show up. They asked me as an ASM to sit in as they didn't want to penalize the boy and make him wait another week. I shouldn't have, but I finally agreed to do it. But I told them that I will only sit in so there are three on the board. I will not ask questions nor will I take part in determining if he passes the BOR. I told them that I will never do it again and not to ask. It does not square with the way BSA says to do it and neither does having boys sit on the BOR. It used to be done that way, but the rules have changed. If you can ignore or bend the rules in one area, what is to stop you in other areas? Can you ignore the G2SS? Can you ignore two deep leadership? Do you allow boys to rappel without a helmet? It seems that just because the BSA says to isn't good enough if you disagree with it.

I'm pressed for time and admittedly have not read all the other posts. Not that I am against the games, but I can think of a couple of reasons. When my son was a Webelos, he had his Yu-Gi-Oh cards stolen at a den meeting. I had purposely hidden them inside the hood of my jacket sitting on the chair next to me. I left the meeting for about two minutes and BAM, they were gone. We did later get them back from the boy who stole them. The other problem is how engrossed many players get in the game. Last year at summer camp, we had boys who avoided anything and everything at camp in due to marathon sessions of game playing. Think Gameboys and electronic devices here. It circumvents the purpose of the outing. You can play at home, you can't camp or hike at home. The other issue we had was a number of our scouts started carrying magic wands in their belts and wore cloaks around camp and even to campfires. That was just a tad TOO much for me. One of the scouts in question was a 17 1/2 year old PL.

When dealing with the outdoors, leave no trace. When dealing with problem scouts, leave no mark.

You know, I'm reminded of combination youth/music ministers in churches. They have split loyalties/responsibilities and usually give more attention to one over the other. I agree that the way to increase membership is to ensure that districts are providing good training and program opportunities to the units. It is hard for a DE to do that job when he is held accountable for FOS too. One is going to get priority over the other and one will suffer while hopefully the other will thrive. Of course, without money, you can't provide program either. Since you can't manufacture money, some end up manufacturing scouts.

I thought people were throwing fits over activist judges who use the courts to effect change in society......or is that just when they effect changes we don't like?

Unc., Council people usually sound overworked, frustrated and grumpy. Similar to unit leaders, but more intense.

Hmmmmm? I love scouting and I think it is a great program. Even with the kids who join because they actually want to, it has its challenges. While these boys can benefit from scouting, I'm not so sure I want the courts dumping their problems on my doorstep. All we need is a teenaged sexual predator bunking with someone. I guess the arsonists can teach fire buiding skills.

Bolo, I can't speak for other councils, but we provide each participant with a gear list. Later on, we will even tell them what needs to be packed in day packs, dufffel bags and a footlocker. Those are the only three pieces of luggage permitted and everything they take will have to fit in there.....no exceptions. The footlockers will probably go to Jambo by truck with all the tents and other equipment and the daypack and duffel will go on the plane and everything they need for touring will need to be in those pieces. We just provided a list of gear to our boys a few weeks ago with the explanation that we will tell them how to pack it at a later date. If you'll go to www.scouting.org you will find a link to the Jambo site. From there, go to the section that has newsletters and guides. The leader guide has a list of gear. The list we provided followed this list "almost" to the letter. If you read that guide, you'll have the same information that the adult leaders taking your son has.

I do stand corrected. We had our monthly Jambo contingent leaders meeting last night and one of the SM's raised the question of a boy leaving with family. The contingent coordinator said that there is a release form that has to be filled out. He said he thinks family coming to visit during Jambo is a great thing and he welcomes it. If they want to take the boy with them instead of traveling back with us, that is fine as well......but we are not going to publicize it. We will deal with it on a case by case basis.

Bringing the cookies? I find that I get volunteered for far more things in scouts than I ever have at church!

Ditto. In our unit we preach to the boys that especially when they are in uniform, they represent all of BSA. The impression they make does not reflect just on them, but on the whole program. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel or at least make all the other apples suspect. Hopefully the scout oath and law is being observed from the top down and back again.

Hmmmmm, are you going as part of your council's contingent troop leadership or as a staff member? I don't know how other councils handle this, but in our council the troop and it's leadership travels as one unit to and from the Jambo. No exceptions. You fly out with is and you fly home with us. Leaving the Jambo (even with family) is not permitted. The boys are under the care of the troop leadership and can not seperate from us and go elsewhere with family at any point during the touring or Jambo. We did have one dad with two sons who signed up and wanted to tag along since they were going to be so far from home. They told him he could, but he had to arrange his own transportation and lodging and would have to stay in the background and not interfere in troop operations. They decided to drop from going to Jambo early on. I'm not saying you can't do this and I don't know if there are regulations concerning it or not or if it is a council by council thing. I just know that in our situation, we had to commit to being able to travel with the troop from beginning to end and everyone stays together thruout. But this is my first Jambo. Maybe some other Jambo folks can give their 2 cents.

starwolf, I attended a crossover last week to help receive a Webelo into our den. OA did the ceremony and what you experienced is pretty typical for a Pack. It was pretty much the same when my son crossed too. You've got to remember that in most venues (school cafeterias) it is next to impossible to hear much of anything going on unless microphones are involved. Sad thing is, there was a mic at last week's crossover and I still couldn't hear a blooming thing that was said by anyone. It wasn't just rowdy boys, it was a lousy sound system. Also, keep in mind that you have 1st thru 5th graders who have spent an hour to an hour and half in a room. Crossover is always at the end and they are pretty bored and wound up by then. I don't know how you managed to keep your pack in check, but what you saw is pretty typical.

I believe we are doing the same as Acco.

Just a few thoughts and comments. Don't we expect the boys to be in as complete of a uniform as they have when they participate in an SM conference or a BOR. What kind of message does it send to the boy when he is expected to wear his uniform and the committee members he is facing are wearing sweatpants and a tee shirt? When I was the Committee Chair of a Pack, I always wore the full uniform to anything that involved the boys. We had DL's that didn't wear the uniform. How can I expect the DL's to set an example to the boys if I don't set one for the DL's? A couple of weeks ago we had our annual Wood Badge reunion. The Council's Scout Executive came and gave a little talk. What was he wearing? A full uniform. It warmed my heart to see that setting the uniforming example in our council starts with the top dog and works its way down. Bottom line, if you are registered and have any dealing with the boys (that includes Committee members), you should wear a uniform. If you won't, that is just one more excuse for the boy not to.

Good looking director of the last WB course? Who voted on that? I demand a recount!

I suppose our council would let us plan out own, but that has not been my experience. I just finished my last ticket item last night and have not notified my troop guide yet. Around here, they want you to do your beading at either a course like IOLS or a roundtable in order to promote WB to scouters who have not been. They can be done elsewhere, but they really try to use it for PR purposes if they can. I've seen one really cool presentation that was about 20 minutes long and I've seen some really poor ones that basically amounted to handing you your beads and shaking your hand. I'm being urged to do my beading at an IOLS course at the end of the month. The weather will most likely be cold and I really an leery of inviting any guests out to a campground after dark. My mom is 75 and I can't see her hiking across the campground in the cold. To my knowledge, no one in my council plans their own beading, just when they want to do it and at which venue.

Katschen, Washing the uniform is easy enough. The hard part is trying to bathe the boy while he is asleep.

Guess what! As CC, the CM answers to you. Tell him/her the den is too big and to recruit a new DL and ADL. We faced the same problem in our old pack where I was CC. We had a Wolf den that was huge. The DL took it as a slam against her that me and the CM would suggest splitting the den up. She said everyone was happy and it would devestate the boys. What she didn't know was that many of the parents were coming to us complaining about the size and how unorganized she was. She spent her time visiting with the parents and let the boys run wild. We had a husband and wife who had volunteered as ADL's that she wouldn't use and they were willing to take half the den. The DL took it personally and there was some wailing and knashing of teeth on her part, but we got it done to the benefit of the boys.

cubiemom, Speaking as a former Pack Committee Chair, let me say that most people do not realize that the Committee Chair is "top dog" in A Pack or Troop. Not the most visible like a Cubmaster or ScoutMaster, but the one at the top. I don't think you mentioned if you held a position or not. I don't remember you ever bringing up the CC in your post. If you don't have one, volunteer for the job. The job is to make sure the unit functions in an effecient manner and that everyone else is doing their job. It sounds like the first order of business would be to recruit an advancement person. Hold a parents meeting and explain the process to everyone that they should be participating with their sons on doing advancement requirements, reporting it to the DL's who will record it and bring it to the advancement person at the monthly committee meeting. The advancement person will get the awards and pass the awards and list of who earned them to the CM prior to the Pack Meeting where the CM will award them. There is a process and a method to the madness. The Pack Committee training is free and if you talk really nice to your District Trainer, he/she will probably come to your Pack and hold a special training just for you guys.

I'm not saying that what we do is right or wrong. You have to understand that our boys have been Scouts for 11 months now and our troop is only about 7 months old. Our SM makes it very clear to prospective candidates what their responsibilities will consist of and tells them not to run if they won't fulfill them. Part of that is that they have to be on their deathbed to miss a camping trip. Since they are the troop and patrol leaders, they have to provide the leadership on outings. Also, if we are doing an activity such as hiking that they don't like, they don't have the option of whining about it and will support it enthusiastically. The SM has the final say on whether a boy can be on the ballot. He may meet all of the technical qualifications that the troop has set for running, but if he is a discipline problem or a part timer, the SM can say no to putting him on the ballot. All of that aside, it is the adult leaderships job to teach these boys how to do the jobs and to make training avaialble to them and then reinforce it when they get back to the troop. If the SM knew these boys were slackers, why let them run? At the very least, I would have gotten assurances from these boys that they would do the job and constantly remind them that a scout is trustworthy and that they need to live up to their word. It would figure prominently in their SM cinference and rank advancement.

Laurie, I sit here with tears in my eyes. I lost my dad to cancer 3 years ago. Even with him being in his late 70's and having lived a full and rewarding life, it hurt to lose him. My son is 11 and my greatest fear in life is losing him. I would be devastated. Your family's loss will be remembered in my prayers and thoughts. Please take what comfort you can in the knowledge that Ryan is free from his cancer, pain and treatment and will have all of eternity to be a little boy.

Our council does two WB's a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. I believe it was last year that they attempted to do a week long course in the summer and didn't get enough participants to make a go of it. I think it is easier for people to take two Fridays off of work than to take five days of vacation.

Sylvar, Could be, I don't know. What I do know is that you can't swing a dead cat in Oklahoma without hitting a Baptist church. A Baptist church sponsoring a unit isn't totally unheard of, but it is a rare thing around here. I did however know many many men in the Baptist church who were scouters. When we were trying to find a CO for our new troop, I went to the phone book and started looking at the Methodist churchs in our district. Every single one of them had a troop.

I'm glad to see all the positive responses. I figured there would be some who would question the intent of a man without a son wanting to be in a troop. We have a man in our troop without a son. He was an Eagle. He got married fairly young and ended up divorced. He went thru the daily task of getting up and going to work, but felt empty. He needed something to belong to. His mom told him that the happiest she ever saw him was when he was in scouts and urged him to find a place to serve. He came back to the troop he earned his Eagle from even though it had had complete turnover from his days in scouting. He is now a committee member and never misses a campout.