SR540Beaver

I think a lot of it depends on the camp and individual counselors. Last year, we had a number of boys take the Fly Fishing MB at summer camp. About mid-week we found out that they were not learning anything. In fact, the counselor (a teen age boy) was playing cards with the kids during class. He'd simply tell the boys where the fishing poles were if they wanted to fish and leave it at that. We complained to the camp director who nipped the problem in the bud. I'm not sure where they buried the body. However, when we got the requirement listing on the boys, it showed they had done everything except catch a fish. Our SM told the boys that the counselor had signed off on the requirements and there was nothing he could do about it. He asked them if they honestly felt they had earned the sign offs on the requirements. Each and everyone of them said no, took their sheet from the SM and ripped it in half. He didn't put a guilt trip on them and was willing to accept their decision. They showed a lot of maturity to do the right thing. We are not returning to that camp this year. We'll see what the new camp has in store for us.

Bob: Why do you suppose some scouters "get it" and some don't? Because they are all individuals just like your example of how some people are mature in some aspects of life and immature in others. No one is going to "get it" all the time in all things. I don't disagree with what you are saying and I believe I said that maturity was a judgement call. The only place that allows for a judgement call of any kind in scouting is Scout Spirit during the SM conference. I'm not suggesting that maturity be included in requirements. I was just giving my opinion that in a perfect world, it would be nice if the end product of a 1st class scout were a mature boy capable of taking care of himself independently and able to pass it along to the scouts coming after him. Our immature 1st class scouts learned and were tested on each requirement up thru 1st class. They passed the test and had the requirement checked off. Yet, each campout is almost like starting over from scratch with some of them. I know part of it is age and maturity. They've been told not to throw rocks, not to run in camp, not to whack trees with sticks they pick up, etc. They've had the pep talks about the oath and law and scoutlike behavior and to please explain how that action is within the oath and law. We just had our Jamboree shakedown this past weekend. I am one of the contingent leaders and there are four boys from our troop who are participants. Only one out of the four had an inkling about how to tie the knots needed for the wall tents and dining fly. They learned them for rank, but with EZ-ups and dome tents, they really have little need for knots. Yes, we sometimes have knot relay games to help them maintain the skills, but they don't use them in the real world where they can retain the knowledge. Therefore, they can't pass it along to the new scouts. Same with cooking. We require them to cook every campout. Not reheat food, but prepare and cook fresh foods. They have been taught and retaught how to cook and they act like they wake up in a new world on every campout. We've tried to make it fun. I've put on hands on demos at troop meetings of different types of cooking methods and how to have foods they want like pizza in camp. They continue to crank the fire up to full blast in an effort to cook "faster" and have destroyed a number of pans. In contrast, our new scouts cooked fried chicken on their first campout with a minimum of adult supervision. So I ask, do you test and test and test until you are satisfied that they really know the skill or do you sign off if they are able to do it one time. Honestly, many of the boys have as bad of a check off mentality as some adults do. I read about it, I learned it long enough to pass the test and I don't ever have to worry about being able to do it again........until the next campout of course. Bob, there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone involved. I've seen as many slacker Scouters as I have Scouts. I've also seen a good number of Scouters who know their scouting skills backwards and forwards and have an excellent ability to teach those skills. I've seen boys who take a real interest and have wonderful retention abilities while you have other boys that make you wonder how they have managed to stay alive as long as they have. I know I've rambled all over the place. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the perception of some Scouters is that 1st class/1st year is some sort of mandate to churn out 1st class scouts or they are not doing their job without any regard to allowing a boy to advance at his own pace and making sure that he really understands the skill he is being tested on and would be able to use it personally and teach it to other people.

As usual, Barry said it better than me.

There are none Bob. The problem is the way the emphasis gets transmitted and interpreted by some Scouters into thinking something is wrong if they do not achieve what they percieve as a goal of producing 1st class scouts in 12 months or less.

Boy, this is a subject near and dear to my heart since our troop is getting ready to turn one year old in a couple of weeks. All but one of the boys who started our new troop has "earned" 1st class. They technically earned the check-offs for each requirement. If maturity were a requirement, I'm not sure they would even be Tenderfoot yet. They have been and continue to be a real challenge. Many of the Webelos who crossed over to our troop this spring show more maturity than our "older" scouts. I think I understand what Barry is saying and like what he is saying. There is the very strong sentiment out there in Scouter land that we have a responsibility to get the boys to 1st class in the first year. Our SM more or less shares that sentiment, but he also preaches to them that by becoming a 1st class scout, BSA considers them to be a capable scout in their skills and to lead by example and in training the newer scouts. I agree with him.......but many of them still lack the maturity to be what he considers a 1st class scout should be. Again, technically they earned the rank. We only had one boy who "qualified" for election into OA during the last election cycle. He is the most immature of the bunch. The good thing and also the sad thing is that the boys recognize their own immaturity. The boys knew how immature this scout is and after the election team expalined the procedures, the boy didn't get a single vote. They re-explained the procedures and voted again. I have a hunch that he didn't get any votes again, but he DID get called out at camporee. He was selected as the ASPL as the lesser of two evils and was removed from the position about a month later because of behavior problems. Maturity is a judgement call, but pretty much a no brainer too. Oh how I wish there were a maturity requirement for 1st class. However, with the exception of one or two scouts, I fear we wouldn't have a 1st class scout out of our original scouts for several more years!!! Perhaps there is something to not pushing boys to achieve the rank and letting them advance at their own pace as long as we always provide a program that ensures ample opportunity to advance as quickly as desired by the boy.

OGE, Job well done!

Root beer floats? At Slippery Falls in Oklahoma they serve Slushies. One is green and referred to as the "square pond" slushie. Why you might ask? The sewage retention pond is square and a lovely shade of green. Sorry to highjack the thread. We now return you to the regularly scheduled program already in progress.

ASM59, We do our planning in 6 month segments instead of 12 months. Part of the reson is to let the new scouts coming into the troop have a say in outings instead of getting "stuck" with what the existing troop members voted on months ago. That really isn't a big deal for me, I don't think the new boys would really care as long as they get to go on scout campouts. But it does give them some buy-in to the troop. As I said, our SM suggested and it it really shocked me. He can be pretty hard core at times and I would have never thought he would suggest it. You should have seen the boys light up when he did. They actually started paying attention for a change! Now, what I have not discussed with him is if he will count it as a troop activity. This was something I discussed on another thread a week or so ago. The 1st class rank requirements say, "Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight." We had a boy who had nine camping trips in and one troop service project. His dad who is a fellow ASM questioned if the service project counted towards the requirement and our SM only wanted to consider the camping trips for advancement. It caused the scout to have to wait another month on earning 1st class. I now know that is not correct and will correct him if it comes up in the future. The requirement says "troop/patrol activity" other than meetings. If the troop or patrol plans it and does it, it counts even if it is entertainment instead of camping. As KoreaScouter said, it can be educational at the same time if you plan it right. Even if you don't make it educational and do it for the fun of it, they still have to plan the trip and possibly even fund it. Have a blast and count it for advancement purposes.

ASM59, We are a small troop and a new troop about to celebrate our first year. Our outings have all been monthly camping trips. So far, we have not done other types of "outings". This fall we will be taking the boys to Six Flags over Texas. The SM was the one who suggested it. Why? Because the boys 11 and 12 years old) didn't know it was a possible option. Of course we are not going to allow them to plan 12 months of theme parks, baseball games, concerts, etc. unless they want to plan events in addition to monthly camp outs ans figure out how to fund it. Let me ask you a question. Why would you not consider this a troop outing? Are you planning it and executing it as a troop? If so, it is a troop outing. An outing does not always mean camping. Scouting is supposed to be fun. Every troop meeting does not have to be brass knuckles training and planning for the next camp out and every outing doesn't have to be testing their mettle in the wilderness. Let them reward their hard work once in a while with a pure fun outing. You might find that an outing of this sort can actually create more bonding and better relationships than being cooped up under a dining fly in the driving rain.

Bob, You are of course correct. However, you are well aware that many CO's take no part in a unit other than to provide meeting space. I know all of the arguments for cultivating a relationship with the CO and agree with them. However, there are still CO's that just won't bite. The vast majority of CO's I'm aware of do not take part in the unit and leave finding leadership up to the unit. Most unit leadership is made up of parents of scouts who have no relationship to the CO at all. Also, many units would be resistant to the CO introducing a John Doe that none of them knows.

Kahuna, G2SS is shorthand for Guide to Safe Scouting.

Ed, What's the point? After a number of years and countless threads, you still like to beat this dead horse and ignore any evidence presented. I'm reminded of a buddy of mine I used to work with some 20 years ago. Discussion around the water cooler turned to religion and beliefs on salvation and heaven and hell. This fellow was of the school that a loving God would never condemn someone to hell. Having a degree in religion, I spent hours and hours and did the Bible study and research and gave him the results. He took about a 10 second glance at it and said, "yeah, well that is your interpretation" and blew it off. The difference was I had scriptural documentation and he had his self derived sentiment.

Refusing to celebrate Festivus should be a capital offense regardless of age!

Save the cream and deal with the crap up to a point. The SM and ASM's need to meet with the committee to determine how to handle the situation so they are all on the same page. If the bad behavior or language starts, give them one warning and tell them that the next time will be the ticket home. You can either approach the individual parents or announce the guidelines to all parents. Any boy who persists in acting in an unscoutlike manner who disrupts the program and is disrespectful to the leaders after being warned will be sent home. Regardless of if it is after lights out or not. Regardless of how far the camp is. Take another adult and escort him out of camp, to the gate and wait for his parents to arrive. Hopefully, the parents will rectify the situation on the ride home. The committee can be notified and decide if further action needs to take place. Boys will be boys, but stealing, not keeping their hands off of others, calling the leaders (or boys) names and filthy language about someone's mother on a repeated basis has to be dealt with......or you will lose everyone else.

Oak, It took 10 months to reach 1st class which fit right into the 1st class, first year scenario for those who attended each months campout. We have one boy who has been in for a year and a half who is still 2nd class, but he plays baseball and football and misses quite a few meetings and campouts and isn't too self motivated. Heck, he isn't very adult motivated either! Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing in favor of only campouts counting for advancement. I think part of the issue for our SM is that the natural activities on campouts count towards a good amount of fulfilling the requirements. It is kind of hard to cook a meal for yourself over an open fire at the local water park or to select a camp site at the ball park. I'm all for having fun. The boys have elected to go to Six Flags in the fall in place of a camping trip. I think part of the concern of some of the adult leaders is that they want to provide a good outdoor program and don't want boys skipping campouts and only showing up for entertainment venues. Lets say that you have a monthly campout and a monthly "activity" for a troop of 20 boys. What do you do when you have 20 boys show up for each activity and only 4 for each campout? As long as the other 16 show up for at least 3 single night campouts, they can advance right along with the campers. Which group is learning, mastering and using scouting skills? This has not really been an issue for us because we have been pretty light on activity based outings in favor of camping outings. There really have been few other activities that our boys could use in place of camping.

One of the 1st Class requirements is, "Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight." This is kind of a dumb question, but what do you consider an activity? Are service projects or a trip to the ballpark considered an activity for advancement purposes? This question came towards the end oflast year when one boy who had missed several campouts was lagging behind his fellow scout peers in making 1st class. His dad (an ASM) questioned whether our scouting for food drive would count. Our SM said no, he considered only our campouts as qualifying for advancement. He is an Eagle Scout and our district trainer. I never was comfortable with his answer. We don't do a lot of "extracurricular" activities. Should a troop planned trip to the local water park for an afternoon carry the same weight toward advancement as a weekend campout? I realize that the requirement says that three of the activities should include camping overnight. Do we advance boys for attending entertainment venues as long as they show up for at least 3 campouts over a year or two?

Our unit is a little different from the average unit since we are just a few weeks short of being a year old and started with all 11 year old boys. Our SPL and PL's serves a 6 month term. The SM has put a limit of 2 terms per PL and SPL in order for other boys to have an opportunity and to prevent burnout. The terms can be consecutive or apart depending on whether the boy wants to run. The SM has final say on who can be on the ballot. My son spent 6 months as a PL (when we only had one patrol and that made him the SPL in effect) and is finishing 6 months as the SPL. He says he will not put his name on the ballot so he can be "just" a scout for a change. Because of our young age as a troop, PL's must be at least a tenderfoot and the SPL must be at least 1st class. I'm sure that will change as our troop grows and our boys age. The problem is, the same boys who are now using up their term limits will be the same boys who will advance and be the only ones who meet the SM's requirements for running unless we keep the SPL at 1st class. That means you could have star and life scouts with an SPL of 1st class.

OGE, Why were there youth at a WB course? That doesn't happen in our council's course.

Hunt, I think you are going to come across the response that the BSA already has terminology and that it is what should be used. That being said, I agree that just about every scout and scouter I know (including our DE) refers to class A and class B. Trying to get everyone to use field and activity is swimming against the tide. It would not upset me if BSA adopted the terms class A and B.

Scoutalot, One more note. Label everything!!! Your son's clothes are going to be washed with everyone elses clothes and the labeling is the only way he'll know what belongs to him.

This is a little off topic, but I have to relate this story. A few campouts ago, we took Webelos II dens from two different Packs to camp with us. 15 Webelos plus their parents, some of which were mothers. We had one of our less sophisticated scouts walk up to a tree about 25 feet from the latrine and hike his leg in full view of everyone. He was polite enough to turn his back to the camp however. Boy, did the SM give him a talking to as he pointed out that there were ladies in camp, how close the latrine was and he'd better use it the rest of the campout. It wasn't so much a YP issue as it was a common sense and courtesy issue. Unfortunately, it was par for the course for this boy.

Dan: Weight is not an issue for me, I could gain 30 pounds and still be within the weight limit for Philmont. Now you're just bragging! No one likes a smart aleck!!!

No offense, but as close as Jamboree is getting, you should have known this kind of information long ago. I'm attending Jambo as one of the contingent leaders from our council. Your council should have held a mandatory parents meeting months ago to give you all sorts of information and to answer questions. Your son should be attending Jambo troop meetings on a "regular" basis. Our troop meets once a month. You should also be having a mandatory shakedown(s) campout soon. To answer your questions. Our council recommends a minimum of three complete scout uniforms. That means the shirt, web belt, shorts and socks. A jamboree hat and neckerchief will be provided. That is all they will wear at Jambo or while touring. You'll probably have a couple of troop t-shirts issued that will be used as "class B" wear with the shorts, belt and socks. We have told our scouts to not bother with taking any "civilian" clothing other than rain gear, swimsuit, sleeping clothes and underwear. They will not have an opportunity to ever wear it. They will have a Jambo OA flap, a Jambo council strip, their Jambo troop unit numerals and the Jambo patch. The will need the patrol patch for their Jambo patrol. They will only wear a position patch if they have a leadership position in the Jambo troop. They will wear their current rank patch and can wear their religious knot and AOL patch. Hope that helps.

Nope, not checking up on you or doubting you. What you do sounds pretty cool. Our council does an annual adult training pow wow and the council website has quite a bit of info to promote it. I was just wondering if you went that route or not. I think the web page for our pow wow in the past was better than this years, although all the info seems to be present. you can check it out at http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/powwowplus/

Kahuna: I wonder what those guys would have thought of our current rules and regulations? I'd like to believe that they would appreciate that the brush they cut and the trail they blazed is well marked and followed by many today and many more in the future.