SR540Beaver

marcheck, I've never heard of any organization that discourages chartering a unit. I think I can shed some light on why some religious denominations do support scouting and others don't. I've been a Southern Baptist all of my life. Traditionally, Southern Baptist churches usually do not charter units. I think the difference is that Baptist churches are autonomous where other denominations are not. They are an entity unto themselves. Their is no national or regional hierarchy over them. Yes, there are state "conventions" and the national level Southern Baptist Convention. But it is different than say the Catholic or Methodist Church. The national level does not "dictate" down to the local church level. Just the opposite. The churchs come together to form "Associations" which would be like a Scout District. The Associations make up the state Convention which would be something like a Scout Council. The national Convention would be like the BSA. The difference being that the individual churches send "meesengers" to the state and national conventions to organize and coordinate mission work and benevolence type activities. Each church determines how much of their offering and tithes will be given to the state and national convention to carry out the organized work. Elected officials are also decided at the conventions. Their job is to oversee the organized works. They do not dictate back down to the local churches. The local churches messengers "dictate" thru votes up the chain to the national level. I believe it is because of this that churches like Baptist churches don't get involved in scouting. The national level just doesn't make recommendations to the churches because each church is free to decide what and how they want to do things. Add to that the Baptist boys program called RA's (Royal Ambassadors) and the fear that scouting will compete with it and it makes it very hard to get them to charter a scout unit. I know from experience. We started a new troop in June and I was turned down by a number of Baptist churches.....even the one I'm a member of. Assembly of God is much the same. They have a program called Royal Rangers that have ranks and uniforms similar to Boy Scouts. You will seldom find a troop at an AG church. That was long and rambling, but I hope it helped answer your question.

The impression I got was that this boy is working on 1st class and neither the SM conference or the BOR has taken place. If the boy is being beligerent, he is not showing Scout Spirit. If he is consistently doing it and not just having a bad day, it is totally appropriate for the SM to not sign off on the Scout Spirit requirement for 1st class. Most of our Scouts (new troop of 11 and 12 year olds and no 1st class scouts yet) were LESS then exemplery on our campout this past weekend. By the end of the campout, our SM had a little "come to Jesus" meeting with them explaining that earning the rank of 1st class means you have arrived at a point where you are considered a leader. Not only within the troop, but within the whole of the BSA. He was not threatening, he was just laying out the expectations of Scout Spirit. He told them that they needed to reflect on the oath and law long and hard and measure themselves against it, because that would be exactly what he would be doing when it came time to sign off Scout Spirit. Without it, they won't make 1st class. We can't add to or take away from the requirements. If a boy attempts to make a camp gadget by just wrapping a rope round and round a few poles and ties it off with a bow knot, we won't sing that off. If he doesn't show scout spirit, we won't sign that off either. It is not we who are holding the boy back form earning his rank, it is the boy himself for not fulfilling the requirement as stated in the handbook.

txscoutdad, Even though your guys didn't casue the problem, perhaps you could solve it. How about offering some sort of service project to the landowner to restore his faith in Boy Scouts in general and your unit in particular?

anarchist, Here is another possible solution. What does a growing church do when their physical facilities can't handle the size of their congregation? They build. I know of at least one unit in our district that has a "Scout Hut" built behind the church. Rather than build onto the church to accomodate the scouts, the scouts raised funds to build their own building. With a unit as large as yours, raising funds shouldn't be too hard over time. Perhaps the church could kick in too. They would still handle the insurance and utility payments as they do for their existing building. Perhaps you can get a local builder to give you a cut rate. The building can be as simple as a prefab metal building and doesn't have to be elaborate. That would be between the unit and the CO. It is worth considering. You could stay right where you are and continue your long relationship with the CO. I think the other CO would find it more rewarding to build a program than move an existing program anyway. Scouting needs real growth with new boys registered more than they need units shuffling to different CO's.

E, Thank you! I'll be praying for "her who must be obeyed". I think you got the better part of the bargain!

Thanks guys for supporting my friend with your prayers. I have since had an opportunity to talk with him and he offered greater detail. He will be leaving after his Jambo commitment. While his wife does give him grief (some of it deserved) over it, she did not give him an ultimatum. The decision to leave is his and it is for the right reasons....his family. I now know much more of the story and I respect and support his decision. But dang it, I'm going to miss him. We just started a new unit back in June and we "need" him as we struggle to raise this baby. Hopefully his son will want to stay even if dad isn't one of the ASM's. Please continue to keep him in your prayers as it sounds like he has a long road to travel.

Bob, With all due respect, you are being petty and condescending. Barry does not need me to defend him. I know Barry. I consider Barry a friend. My sone and I have visited the Troop Barry serves and I can assure you that they know the program, support the program, believe in the program and use the program. The are a well organized and successful boy run troop. I'd love for my son to be a part of his Troop if it wasn't in another town with at least a 30 minute drive. I'm reminded of the biography I read of Chuck Yeager, the test pilot who first flew supersonic. Yeager knew the book backwards and forwards, he knew every nut and bolt on the planes he flew and how each syatem interacted. That knowledge couple with his experience is what kept him alive on many flights that took a bad turn. He applied his knowledge and adapted to the situation at hand.

I like Rudy as much as the next guy. That being said, don't think he is an automatic shoe in for '08. Let's not forget how the right hammered home how personal character counts and traditional values while Clinton was in office. Rudy left his wife for another woman....at least Clinton stuck it out. Rudy is very moderate in alot of other political views such as abortion and gay rights. Rudy's views wouldn't set well with much of the Repub base and his personal life would be fodder for his opposition. To try to run him to appeal to voters on both sides would be the same as what conservatives claim of the liberals all the time. That being that they will stoop to anything to retain the power they have gained. People can't have it both ways. It will be interesting to see how the Repubs do now that they control both the Admin and the Congress and have a majority of Governors. Will they rule as they see fit and risk angering people or will they move to the middle to satisfy people and play politics to stay in power like the Dems did. The ball is in their court now and it is put up or shut up. If they blow it, they stand to lose big time in '08.

BW, I think you know from my posts that I'm pretty supportive of doing things by the book. That being said, why does it seem to disturb you that a unit might tweak the frequency of their PLC meetings? If they find that doing it weekly instead of monthly greatly enhances their effectivness, why not do it? Especially if they have done it by the book and find it frustrating. We are not talking something like a unit redesigning their uniform or deciding that instead of an outdoors program they will have movie nights once a week. Hypothetically, what if a unit decided that they wanted to have two campouts per month? The BSA states that a CO has to provide at least 10 nights of camping per year. What would be wrong with a unit deciding to provide 24 nights if it is what everyone wanted? Just because the training says to have a monthly PLC meeting does not mean it can be held more frequently if desired.

Ed, I know it ain't supposed to happen, but our district does allow Webelos to participate in our Camporee. Not a separate program, but actually compete in the compititions. They camp in the same site as well. Heck, they've even started allowing Bears to attend. It is used as a recruiting effort with direct hands on experience with the troop from beginning to end. I thought that was great when my son was a Webelos. Now that we are part of a troop, I don't. I'd like to see it as a direct competition event so the boys can work hard and prepare their skills. As it stands now, the competition part of it is all skewed. The Scouts have no control over how well they will be able to perform in a competition because all of a sudden they have a huge number of Webelos involved who are not prepared. There is no incentive for the Scouts to hone their skills for Camporee. Our district also holds Webelos Woods which is a teaching/doing competition and recruitment for Webelos put on by Scouts. The Webelos get to camp with a Troop and get to check them out for possible crossover. We shouldn't be diluting Camporee when we have Webelos Woods for recruitment. Korea, I thought Eamonn and I were long lost broters seperated at birth. It appears I now have another brother out there. I ditto everything you said about moving from stone tablets to the computer age. My pet peeve is visiting a unit's website and there is absolutely no contact information. None of the adult leadership's names, phone numbers or e-mail addresses are there. Another thing they skimp on is information about where they meet, what day and what time. Hey, a website can be a great recruitment tool if you'll let it be.

If I may, could I ask you to keep a Scouter buddy of mine in your thoughts and prayers. He informed me last night at our troop meeting that he was getting out of scouting when we return from Jamboree next summer. He said it was either that or face the possibility of losing his marriage. It seems his wife gives him holy heck over the amount of time and money he puts into scouting. To be fair to her, he has been very gung ho for scouting and has a tendency to overextend himself. He has been a den leader, cubmaster, coordinated several blue and gold banquets and been a popcorn kernel. He has staffed two WB courses, several IOLS classes, has assisted in district training, been a unit commish, assisted in two or three pow wows, is an ASM and will be serving as an ASM for Jamboree. That is just what I can think of off the top of my head. Plus, that has all occured in the last 3 to 4 years. I don't even attempt to keep up with him. He is an admitted gear freak too. His wife has some valid arguments, but to deliver an ultimatum of "me or scouting" seems extreme. In addition to his scouting, he is a very dedicated family man. I don't disagree that he needs to find a balance, but I sure hate the thought of losing him entirely. He LOVES scouting and he was and is my inspiration for being a scouter. Please keep him in your prayers.

Bluegoose, I googled your quote and came up empty. Are you sure you are quoting it accurately?

I've never been one to pass up a fundraiser. I can easily pay for my son's activities out of my pocket and not bother with the time and effort that goes into fundraising, but I don't. A scout is thrifty and pays his way. The lesson is too important to pass up. We are doing the boys a disservice when we pony up for them. That being said, sometimes you simply get worn out from all the fundraising. Around here, the schools have an annual fundraiser. The sports teams do too. Then there is scout popcorn and if you don't make enough, you have the possibility of a second fundraiser. Add in something like Jambo and you are looking at another fundraiser. After a while it becomes too much. Your family and friends hate to see you coming with another piece of paper in hand asking for money. My wife will take our son's popcorn to work and nothing else. Many of the people she supervises make just a little over minimum wage. She worries that they feel obligated to buy from the boss's kid. She doesn't want to subject them to that more than once a year. Some families decide to draw a line. For some, that is the fundraiser that is most important to them. To others, it is no fundraiser at all and they just want to write a check. Each fundraising organization looks at it in a vacuum. They never consider how many times the same kid is asked to wander the neighborhood asking the same people over and over to buy something. Most fundraisers happen around the same time of year and kids do one on the heels of another. I tend to like the show and sell fundraisers because the boys don't have to go door to door (which some hate) and they are not having to hit the same people over and over again. We need to be a little more innovative in our fundraising. The Jambo fundraiser I organized was first aid kits. I wanted to get away from the traditional food products so it would stand out from other products. I wanted an item that didn't need specialized storage requirements like refrigeration. I also did it during a time of year when others were not doing fundraisers. For those who put any effort into it, it was a successful fundraiser. What I'd like our troop to try out sometime is to do a first aid show and sell with small kits. I'd like to target baseball and soccer tournaments. Back when my son was playing sports, hundreds if not thousands of people came thru the gates for tournaments. Everyone (especially athletes)can use a small first aid kit in their gear bag. There are usually multiple tournaments going on each weekend of the season. Split the boys up at different tournaments and have them work the table in shifts. I think it would potentially rival any other fundraiser you could do. That is the kind of innovation I think people need to consider. There would be a minimal effort involved as compared to a month long door to door campaign. Whew, that was long. I'm going to take a break.

I don't know that there is anything to stop them from doing this. What it sounds like to me is that they have parents who have not supported fundraisers in the past and they have decided to charge an upfront fee. I remember when my son was playing little league ball and we had people who either just flat didn't lift a finger to help raise funds or they wanted to write a check and not mess with it. Some boys would get out and work their tail off and other boys did nothing. Guess what? The boys who did nothing benefitted from the ones who worked. You can imagine how that made the worker boys and their families feel. Let me give you another example. The cost for going to the National Jamboree from where our council is located is $1900.00. Knowing that there are families that would struggle spending that much money, I volunteered to run a fundraiser for it. We had 93 boys signed up at the time. I sent them all information with one month to do the fundraiser. It was in August before school started, so it wouldn't compete with their school work. We had 31 boys participate. One third. We had one kid who raised almost $900 as his profit. Some raised $100. Many raised $15. 62 boys didn't even bother. You know what I was asked by many of these people after the fundraiser was over? Are we going to do another fundraiser? NO! As I said, I suspect that they have been down the road of the majority of parents not supporting the fundraisers and they are tired of nickel and diming the parents everytime an activity comes up. It sounds like they just decided to have them write a check instead and make life "easier" for everyone. I'm with you, I don't like it and I'd never support it in my unit. Has she considered another Pack?

ahhhhhh!!! Thanks!

E, I agree with most of the other posters. Telling OJ your perception of this group can be done in a non-judgemental way. You don't have to put them down, just express your experience with them and your concerns. Tell him he already has a great grasp of Scouting and you are concerned that their version of it might influence him adversely. My son is only 11, but very mature. I've heard the sermon a million times about letting a boy chose his troop. He was leaning heavily towards going to a different troop than the rest of his Webelos friends. He is fast at making friends, so moving to a troop where he knew no one was only a minor concern to me. My greatest problem with the troop he was leaning towards was the SM's wife. She is the advancement chair and she wears the pants in the troop. She has no problem bossing the boys around and if you ever get on her bad side, you stay there forever. He was looking at it strictly from a boy's perspective about hanging out with a bunch of other scouts. I was looking at it from a perspective that they have a very limited concept of a boy run troop and this lady causing advancement problems for boys she doesn't like. I didn't call her names or put her down. I just explained to him what my concerns were and he decided to go with the rest of his buddies. I have no problem telling my son NO, but I very seldom invoke the "because I said so" fine print clause in the parent/child contract. I try to have valid reasons. This drives my "her who must be obeyed" crazy sometimes. LOL She is from the "because I said so" school.

I bought an Orienteering merit badge book this weekend at the Scout Shop and saw a couple of pictures that caught my eye. Each picture had a Scout with a Trained patch on their sleeve. I've never seen a boy with a trained patch. Do boys who have been thru JLT wear a trained patch or do we need to send the uniform police after these guys?

I just went to our council website to look at the newsletter and to double check what I already knew to be true. We have an ad for a lazer tag place along with an ad for a tae kwon do school which is also not approved in G2SS. The lazer tag ad does not mention scouting or a discount for scouts however. Both are in my district and on our district's page.

Marcheck, Hmmmm, what clothing would attract kids today? From dropping in on my son's school from time to time and judging by what his friends in the neighborhood wear, it would have to be an untucked t-shirt with some sort of graphic on it, jeans or some sort of cargo pants and untied tennis shoes. Functional, but not very appealing as a uniform. If you think you are going to get them to wear khaki dockers and a polo tucked in with a belt and penny loafers, they will reject it just as quickly as the scout uniform. My son wears that to church and can't wait to get home and put on his "regular" clothes. He does however put on his full uniform for every meeting and outing without complaint or question. Heck, he'll even wear it into a store after a meeting. Of course, having a 6'2", 275 lbs scouter dressed just like him to hide behind helps!

It's Me, I've got to agree with Hops. Boy Scouting loses much of it's identity if different regions of the country opt for different uniforms. Can you imagine a National Jamboree with 4 or 5 different uniforms? I can't. Let's look at the military's BDU's. The BDU's cut and design is the same regardless of where a soldier is stationed. That being said, it comes in a variety of different fabrics that can fit different climates. That would be the way that BSA would need to go. It should be pointed out that the BSA does in fact offer uniform pieces in a variety of fabrics already. Now, if I were going to update the uniform, I'd make roomier pants with functional cargo pockets and possibly convertible legs. I'd either put a "real" collar on the shirt or do away with it altogether. I'd make both the pants and the shirts out of fabric that is quick drying and that wicks moisture away from the body. I'd like to see a long sleeve shirt that has button tabs on the sleeve so the shirt can be converted to short sleeve. With a convertible shirt and pants, a scout could have a summer and winter uniform in one. The socks should NOT be made of cotton and should be a good quality hiking sock. It is possible to make a uniform that is both functional in the outdoors and snappy enough for ceremonies. In addition to quick drying fabrics, there are also fabrics available that now have odor elimination, UV protection, stain repellant, insect repellant, anti-wrinke and permanent press built in. All of these features or a combination of these features can be bought at a lower cost than BSA uniform pieces. I for one do not have to have a uniform made in the US if I can get a good looking, functional, high tech uniform.

anarchist, What KS said! Also a note about having problems with your twins at night. I've stated several times that it depends on the brothers in question. If they fight like cats and dogs or are otherwise disruptive, then they probably should be split up. As I also said, that should go for two non-siblings in a patrol. If you have two boys who can't get along and are constantly sniping at each other.....why would you force them to be in a patrol together? Split them up and EVERYONE will be much happier. To automatically assume that two brothers equals trouble is wrong. The brothers wishes should be respected as much as two buddies who want to be in the same patrol. To do otherwise could be the difference between losing or keeping a couple of potentially great scouts.

Gags, Point taken. However, don't we expect new boys to depend on the older boys to teach them the ropes? Not do for them, but teach them. The Patrol Leader and SM need to keep a watchful eye with any younger/older boy combination to make sure that the older boys are teaching and the younger boys are doing. Will there be a possibility that the older brother will do for the younger brother and that the younger boy will expect it? Possibly. The PL and SM need to make sure that doesn't happen. The fact that they are in a patrol together does not automatically mean this problem will occur. The question is whether this SM is being subjective or objective. It sounds like he is trying to head off what he thinks could be a problem without knowing it will be a problem. Like I said, my school system "assumed" that it would be a problem if my brother and I were in the same class. Granted, we were older (in high school) before we were in a class together, but it wasn't a problem. Outside of school, we had the same friends, interests and were always together. We still were our own unique individual.

BW, Note that I asked if they fought like cats and dogs or not. I don't want two boys from different families in the same patrol if they argue and fight with each other all the time. Same goes for brothers. It depends on the relationship of the boys involved. I had an older brother who wouldn't let me or my twin in his room. He wouldn't give us a ride anywhere in his car. His little brothers cramped his style. Now that we are adults, we are best of friends. I did grow up with a lot of kids who had a different relationship with their older siblings. The looked up to them and admired them and the older sibling accepted their role. They were good friends even with several years difference in age. I agree with putting new scouts in a new boy patrol.....but that requires that you have enough boys to do it. We have some "super" troops in our council that take up three camp sites when they go to summer camp. They would have little trouble forming several new boy patrols. But the vast majority of units I know rarely get enough boys each year to make up a new patrol. Some do, some don't. In the cases where you don't, you integrate them into existing patrols. What happens when you start losing 15 and 16 year old boys and end up with only 2 or 3? Do you make them a patrol of their own to keep them seperated from the 11, 12 and 13 year olds? The reality is that many unit's patrols are made up of a wide range of ages. If you have two brothers who are several years apart who get along and want to be in the same patrol, I see no reason not to let them.

I thought patrols were supposed to be made up of buddies? I'm a twin (the good looking and smart one) and my brother and I never got to have a class together in school until or junior year of high school because it was discouraged by the school system. We did everything else together.....even worked for the same place in high school. I never liked them keeping us apart.....although it didn't scar us for life or anything. Part of being in a patrol is helping each other, working as a team and having older boys as role models. What is the problem here? You'd want other young boys to be in the patrol to look up to this older brother as a role model and friend, why not let brothers? Now, if they fight like cats and dogs, that is a different story. Keep in mind that if you separate them, the younger brother may view scouting as not fun and want to drop out. It is hard enough to keep some boys in scouting even with a good program. Why give them a reason to leave?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Sorry guys, that is as close to latin as an Oklahoma Baptist can get.