SR540Beaver

I'm not sure how to respond concerning PL's that don't camp, except to say that I told my PL son that he has an obligation to go on every campout since he is the PL. Not that that is a problem, but I told him anyway. I don't care that he has an APL......he is the PL. He has to help set the example and he doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing his campouts. I think one way to handle this is to make your expectations known before elections and remind them of the oath and law. Don't run for a position if you are unwilling to fulfill the responsibilities. If you plan on not wearing your uniform to set the example, perhaps you shouldn't run. If you plan on disappearing for 3 to 5 months for baseball and 3 to 5 months for football, perhaps you shouldn't run. If you plan on not doing winter camping, perhaps you shouldn't run. A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful and obedient. If you intend on being a scout's scout and leading by example, by all means run.

Just thinking that a Scout leader here ignores the oath and law creeps me out. Pounder, you never responded to the cases listed above where the ACLU championed the civil rights of religious organizations. I'm sure there were people who were just as angry over the ACLU defending religious organizations as there are people who get angry over cases like these. Like them or not, the ACLU's purpose is to defend the civil rights guaranteed to all Americans thru the Constitution regardless of who the group is or how popular or socially acceptable they are. While I dislike many of the cases they take on, they serve a needed purpose and I'd sure be glad that they are around if my civil rights are ever endangered. I'd suggest that you set your bias aside for a minute and honestly analyze the ACLU's purpose. It is not to undermine society, it is to defend guaranteed civil rights.

Ed, Can you give us an update on the Scouter from your area who was mugged and paralyzed back in 2003?

Who signed off your Star and Life Scout's requirements for Tenderfoot, 2nd class and 1st class? If they have no scouting skills now, they didn't learn them back then. Why were they signed off and how did they get to Star and Life?

I believe in supporting your council camp. That being said, I also like to see the world. I like the idea of alternating between the council camp and other camps every other year. Unless you have an outstanding program and a scenic site, it is hard to retain troops making annual visits to your camp. On the other hand, if you don't support it, it will never get better. When my son was looking for a troop to join, we visited one of the more prestegious troops in our area. One of their leaders told me that they never go to our council camp because their boys found it boring and always go out of state. Often far out of state. He then told me they had been doing this for about 10 years. 10 YEARS!? How in the world did they know if our council camp had inproved or not if they had not been in 10 years? I prefer to research the camps and present it to the boys and let them decide. I really don't think it should be the SM or committee's decision. They should offer input, but not decide. Remember, we need to allow the boys to fail in a safe environment. Let them live with their decisions and learn from it. I presented our boys with about six options recently. The one I was pulling for was a camp with a great reputation and an outstanding facility and program. The boys picked a dinky little camp that only has a two week program and a single shower facility for the whole camp. The reason was because the camp offers the golf merit badge. When they heard that, all reason flew out the window. Who knows, it might turn out to be a great experience. If not, next year I will remind them how they chose a camp based entirely on a single merit badge. Live and learn.

ACLU of Nebraska Defends Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln August 11, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE LINCOLN --The American Civil Liberties Union of Nebraska today announced that it would defend a Presbyterian church from a forced eviction by the city. "There's no reason for the city to force the Church of the Awesome God from its home, and the city is violating both the First Amendment and federal law in doing so," said Tim Butz, Executive Director of the ACLU of Nebraska. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=16295&c=142 Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks June 3, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RICHMOND, VA -- Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford County, the ACLU announced today. Robinson also told the ACLU that the Fredericksburg-Stafford Park Authority, which controls access to the public park, expects to issue written policies making it clear that religious groups have the same right to use the park as all other groups. This kind of confusion over religious expression in public places is not uncommon, said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis. Government officials often seem not to understand that private religious expression is protected in public forums. Afraid of violating separation of church and state by permitting religious activities, they end up obstructing freedom of religion. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15897&c=141 After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries May 11, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DETROIT The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today announced an out-of-court settlement between the Utica Community School District and a local student over the censorship of her 2001 yearbook entry. The students entry had been deleted from the yearbook because it contained a passage from the Bible. While it is true that the Constitution forbids public schools to promote religion, schools must be careful not to suppress the private religious expression of students, said ACLU of Michigan Legal Director Michael J. Steinberg, who represented the student. In this case, a high school purported to create an open forum for student expression, yet censored a students speech because it was religious in nature. http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159 In Win for Rev. Falwell (and the ACLU), Judge Rules VA Must Allow Churches to Incorporate April 17, 2002 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RICHMOND, VA--A federal judge has struck down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating, in a challenge filed by the Rev. Jerry Falwell and joined by the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, the group announced today. "The judge applied well established constitutional principles to reach the conclusion that Virginia's archaic ban on church incorporation cannot pass constitutional muster," said Rebecca Glenberg, Legal Director of the ACLU of Virginia. The ACLU joined the lawsuit as a "friend of the court" last fall, challenging the ban on the grounds that it violates the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of free exercise of religion. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=10147&c=142

Hmmmmm? Does anyone recall a guy by the name of Yaworski, Zorn Packt, Fat Old Guy, JasonOK, etc., etc., etc. who hailed from Baltimore and had a thing for BW? Just curious.

PE, Of course there is! Remember, it's just one hour a week.

Before Scouting it was baseball, basketball and Tae Kwon Do. If we were not in Scouting, I'd be involved in whatever my son's next adventure was........or get reaquainted with my nicely broken in, extra large leather recliner.

Sorry KS, you asked for it! I have this image of you and your ASM's sitting on a branch picking fleas and grooming each other. Have a good thansgiving and don't eat too many fleas.

With so many nit's in the world, isn't it great that we have nit-pickers?

The ACLU takes on a number of cases I don't like because they conflict with my values. That being said, I t hink most people are uninformed aboutthe ACLU. If you look at their website, you will find where they also took on cases in support of churches and religious organizations. Those are not controversial and therefore are not NEWS. We never hear about them. You know, the Constitution really was quite liberal for it's time and quite radical. Freedom to bear arms? Freedom to worship as you choose? The government not able to sanction an official state church? Freedom of speech? Those things were unheard of for the most part at their time. Disrespect the king and get your head lopped off. Not be a member of the official church and go to prison. Keep arms where you could rise up against the king's army and you could die for it. These freedoms that were guaranteed to the people were uneard of and not popular in their time to other world governments. The idea of allowing people the freedom of speech was as unpopular at that time as allowing a neo-Nazi organization to march thru a largely Jewish community is today. I like to think the writers of the Constitution knew what they were doing. You notice that they didn't put qualifiers on the freedoms they guaranteed. They didn't say you have freedom of speech as long as you don't criticize the government. They didn't say you can have freedom of religion as long as you worship in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The ACLU observes the letter of the law. If the Constitution says freedom of speech, then it means freedon of speech even if it is a repugnant speech. They are duty bound to defend the Constitution even when it goes against our traditional values and sensibilities. I think the Founding Fathers would be glad that someone defends the Constitution and does not allow popular opinion to override it. Just my two cents.

While I am not a huge fan of the ACLU, I do believe they deserve a fair shake like anyone else. While all of the constitutuional issues they take on that are not popular get a lot of media attention, you never here about cases such as these: ACLU of Nebraska Defends Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln August 11, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE LINCOLN --The American Civil Liberties Union of Nebraska today announced that it would defend a Presbyterian church from a forced eviction by the city. "There's no reason for the city to force the Church of the Awesome God from its home, and the city is violating both the First Amendment and federal law in doing so," said Tim Butz, Executive Director of the ACLU of Nebraska. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=16295&c=142 Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks June 3, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RICHMOND, VA -- Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford County, the ACLU announced today. Robinson also told the ACLU that the Fredericksburg-Stafford Park Authority, which controls access to the public park, expects to issue written policies making it clear that religious groups have the same right to use the park as all other groups. This kind of confusion over religious expression in public places is not uncommon, said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis. Government officials often seem not to understand that private religious expression is protected in public forums. Afraid of violating separation of church and state by permitting religious activities, they end up obstructing freedom of religion. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15897&c=141 After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries May 11, 2004 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DETROIT The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today announced an out-of-court settlement between the Utica Community School District and a local student over the censorship of her 2001 yearbook entry. The students entry had been deleted from the yearbook because it contained a passage from the Bible. While it is true that the Constitution forbids public schools to promote religion, schools must be careful not to suppress the private religious expression of students, said ACLU of Michigan Legal Director Michael J. Steinberg, who represented the student. In this case, a high school purported to create an open forum for student expression, yet censored a students speech because it was religious in nature. http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159 In Win for Rev. Falwell (and the ACLU), Judge Rules VA Must Allow Churches to Incorporate April 17, 2002 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RICHMOND, VA--A federal judge has struck down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating, in a challenge filed by the Rev. Jerry Falwell and joined by the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, the group announced today. "The judge applied well established constitutional principles to reach the conclusion that Virginia's archaic ban on church incorporation cannot pass constitutional muster," said Rebecca Glenberg, Legal Director of the ACLU of Virginia. The ACLU joined the lawsuit as a "friend of the court" last fall, challenging the ban on the grounds that it violates the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of free exercise of religion. http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=10147&c=142

Its Trail Day: I have a question. If the 1st Amendment was amended to "...establish 'a' religion". What would the result be? Would it make things better or worse? Do you get a choice on paying your taxes? How would you like the same principle applied to what religion you practiced? We recently liberated a country that dictated the religion to it's citizens didn't we?

Pack, Have you looked on top of your head......or did you lose that too? I used to have this quote scrolling across my screensaver, "I'll be back shortly, I've lost my mind and I'm out looking for it."

Double DOH! I decided to call the BSA Supply Division's toll free number to find out how many in a package and find it in the catalog just as they answer the phone. They come 3 to a package. Still pricey! I guess I can't function today. Since I've been "scouting" the past 5 nights, I'm going home, crawling up in my recliner with some comfort food and unplugging my brain.

DOH! Like any good Scouter would do, I always carry my BSA Official Retail Catalog in my briefcase to drool over when things are slow. Lo and behold, sanitizer tablets! However, it says $2.05 per package, but it doesn't say if that is 1, 5, or 10 tablets. $2.05 per tablet would be pretty pricey.......but most things in the BSA catalog are. I'm still looking for a source, so keep the comments coming please.

Good discussion and many valid points. Let me put a different perspective on it. If you are a Christian family, is it right to only bring up God, Christlike behavior or pray when the family is at church, or do you practice it at home. A Scout and Scouter promise to live by the oath and law at all times. It is kind of hard to separate life at home from life at the troop. There are times that I tell my son that something wasn't very Scoutlike just as I tell him that something isn't appropriate for a Christian young man to say or do. But I think I understand what KS is saying. I'm sure the Pastor's wife doesn't want to be preached at 24/7 just like the Scout doesn't want every discussion to be an SM conference. Another note with a sports analogy. I found that when my son was playing baseball, it was difficult to coach my own son. Son's rarely thought their dad knew what the heck he was talking about while someone else's dad was the smartest man on the face of the earth. We often swapped kids at practice.

If I recall correctly, you will find information on Professional Scouting at the BSA website, www.scouting.org.

foto, Well done! I'm half a ticket away from my beads. I used to be a beaver......obviously

Our troop has had individually wrapped chlorine sanitizing tablets in the past, but have ran out. Currently we are just using a bottle of clorox to add to the sanitizing rinse for clean up after cooking. We are a young troop of some very hyper and unobservant 11 and 12 year olds and we really don't trust them at this point to handle a bottle of bleach. We really don't want to send someone home with a white spotted uniform. I have Googled and Googled and found many references on scouting sites to the sanitizer tablets, but no brand info or where to find them. I spent my lunch hour today driving around town and came away empty handed from an Army/Navy Surplus store, a restaurant supply store and a janitorial supply store. The janitorial supply place looked in a supply catalog and found Beer Klean which are individual packets of powder used by bars that they could custom order for me. 100 to a case at a cost of $33.00.....which really isn't a bad price. But I'd prefer a tablet to a powder. Does anybody use these tablets and do you have a source you can pass on to me?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41467 U.S. bases warned not to sponsor Scouts ACLU sued Pentagon because group requires belief in God -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: November 16, 2004 1:00 a.m. Eastern 2004 WorldNetDaily.com The Pentagon will warn its bases not to sponsor Boy Scout troops after agreeing to settle an issue in a five-year-old lawsuit brought by the ACLU, which charged the government with improperly supporting a group requiring members to believe in God. The settlement yesterday partially resolved the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois' complaint. "If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based upon religious beliefs," Adam Schwartz of the ACLU of Illinois said in a statement. "This agreement removes the Pentagon from direct sponsorship of Scout troops that engage in religious discrimination." The ACLU complained the Boy Scouts of America "requires troop and pack leaders, in this case government employees, to compel youth to swear an oath of duty to God." The Pentagon denied Boy Scout sponsorship violated its rule against support of non-federal organizations but agreed to post a warning worldwide, the Associated Press said. The agreement was presented to U.S. District Court Judge Blanche Manning in Chicago. Military personnel can still lead Scout troops in their free time, however, and Scout meetings will continue to be held on military bases in areas designated for civilian events. Unresolved is the ACLU's complaint that government funds have benefited the Boy Scouts, including an average of $2 million each year to support the national Boy Scout Jamboree. Responding to the settlement, Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller said the warning to bases is "a clarification of an existing rule that DOD [Department of Defense] personnel cannot be involved in an official capacity." Along with the Department of Defense and the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the city of Chicago also was named in the suit. The city agreed to not officially sponsor Scout activities and events. As WorldNetDaily reported, a retired U.S. Navy commander is leading the charge to turn the remnants of a former Saddam Hussein police camp into a first-class camp and training facility for Boy Scouts in Iraq, aiming to have scouting flourish once again in the region. In one of many cases related to its policy against avowed homosexuals in leadership, the U.S. Supreme Court in March allowed Connecticut to exclude the Boy Scouts of America from a state charitable program. Critics said the high court's refusal to revisit the ruling by an appeals court threatened not only the First Amendment right to expressive association but also the right to free exercise of religion.

Proud Eagle, Since a large number of troops are chartered by churches, it is kind of hard to leave them out of the list of organizations that won't charter a unit. Scoutldr, There are Southern Baptist churches that do indeed charter units, but they are few and far between. In fact, in the church I grew up in and in the church where I am now a member, there were a large number of scouts and scouters. But they trekked off to the Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic and Presbyterian chuches for their meetings. OGE, Yep, I read an article today that said the Pentagon had reached a settlement with the ACLU to post warnings to military bases about taking care in how they set up and support scouting units. The base itself shouldn't charter the unit or support it financially. Military personnel can be involved in scouting and meetings can be held in areas of the bases where family/civilian activities occur, but the base should be hands off. At least that was my take on the article.

anarchist, No one said you had to return it at the next meeting. Make one of the adult leaders the keeper of lost and found articles and let it be known that people looking for lost items must go to that person to retrieve it.....if it is there. You could put a one month limit on lost and found and give the items to charity. That might light a fire under them.

I was as guilty as many others were when I became a leader in my son's Pack. I wore the shirt, but I wore it with jeans. Like a lot of other people, I thought the scout pants were the ugliest pair of pants I'd ever seen. Two things changed me into a full uniform guy. One was that it really bothered me to go to den meetings, pack meetings and outings and see maybe 10% of the boys in ANY uniform piece. And unlike CajunCody's situation, these boys came from families who could easily afford it. I remembered when I was a Cun in the mid-60's and we always wore our uniform. Heck, my 3rd grade school photo was taken in my uniform. The other thing that switched me was going to Wood Badge and being required to wear scout pants. Once I bought a pair and tried them, I found them to pretty darn comfortable. WB was what got me into a pair, but it was actually the desire to set the example for the boys that really got me started. You'll never see me at a scouting event without a full uniform. I truely believe that the biggest problem with getting Cubs in uniform is at the unit leadership level. From my experience, the Cub leadership seem to think jeans are an official part of the uniform and the only encouargement they give to parents is to buy a shirt. It's a shame.