SR540Beaver

NO!!! Steel wool burns! Steel wool can be used as a fire starter. Take a 9 volt battery and touch the two terminals to the steel wool and see what happens. Suggestion, do it in a non-flammable place. Try vermiculite instead. I just recently built a pepsi can stove and am currently working on a zen stove. Check out this site for plans and links for a variety of lightweight backpacking alcohol stoves. http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/

Our troop was only chartered back in June to a Presbyterian church. None of our boys are members there. I mentioned Scout Sunday to our SM and asked if he would like for me to coordinate something with our charter. No. His take on it is that Scout Sunday needs to be observed by each boy at their home church. He was not opposed at all to doing something with our charter at a later date, but didn't want to do it on Scout Sunday. I thought it was a natural fit. Probably because this is what our old pack did at a Methodist church. We could get our boys to all show up at the charter in full uniform, but get them to individually wear their uniform to their own church......forget it!

E, Quit being right......it is just so irritating! I have to admit, in the case I brought up, a rule book wouldn't have helped anyway. The mom that was trying to get sign offs and pushing her boy to get an instant SM conference so he could take part in the elections is a scouter. She was half our boys Webelos DL, is currently on the troop committee as our treasurer and is Wood Badge trained. She can't seem to quit spoiling her son and making exceptions for him. A rule book won't change that.

E, The big book of rules isn't for the boys. We've trained them and they already know what to do. It is for the parents who can't leave well enough alone.

Laurie brings up some good points. I am fortunate enough to have a son who has never brought home anything other than an A from school. The school sent their work home with them each night and a sign off sheet for the parents to sign. We always looked our son's work over and pointed out any errors and had them correct them. After a while, this began to bug me. Is he really an A student or not. If we didn't look over his work, would he be a B student. We asked the teacher during a conference and she said that as long as you are not doing the work for him, you are doing exactly what we want every parent to do. Be interested in their education and reinforce what we teach. Point out the mistakes and make sure he does the work. She said that the true measure is when he takes a test. If he makes an A on every paper and pulls a C on the test, he isn't getting it. He makes an A on every test. I asked the teacher why some kids make such poor grades. Part of it was because some just are not that sharp, but part of it was because their parents didn't take an interest in their education, didn't look over their work and didn't reinforce what they were learning at school. I try to approach his scouting the same way. I'm always aware, watching and evaluating, but I make sure he does it all on his own. He has his 1st class BOR next week. If he wants it, there is no question he can EARN his Eagle someday. Dad will have been a part of it, but he will have earned it on his own. Knowing where the dividing line is half the trick.

The SM, my fellow ASM and I set down after our last troop meeting where the mom flagged me down to sign her son's requirements off that I mentioned in the other thread. WE came to an agreement that we needed to start a document of written policies to avert these types of things. I see the beginnings of a Troop Parent's Guide. I know that a former by the book poster I highly respect detested these rules and policies. He thought it was all covered in the oath and law. It is, but just like the smoking thread(s)....even intelligent folks need some things spelled out for them. Communication and education are good things. I think we will put at the top of each page in big bold letters, "IF A BOY CAN DO IT, PARENTS DON'T!!!"

Acco, Perhaps a more accurate description would be Cub mode. They want to camp and they want to come to meetings, they just don't want to do any of the work. It stems from mommy wiping their noses at home, buying them everything they want and not having to take responsibility for anything. The boys are coming along slowly but surely. They don't fuss and whine when it is time to set up their patrol site anymore. They know they have to do it. They do however still want to make ramen noodles the main course for dinner. They still think that turning the burner on the stove full blast will cook the food faster when all they accomplish is turning the outside of their raw meat into charcoal. They still want to swish a plate into cold water and call it clean. We still stand back and watch and make them do it over until it is right in the hopes that it will eventually filter thru. We ARE making process!

KS, Hear, hear and a hearty hi-ho silver to what Barry said. You have nothing but my deepest respect. You proved your point with documentation. Are you channeling BW? We are a new troop with all first year scouts who keep wanting to drop back into Webelos mode. We find it beneficial to make them do for themselves since their mommies tend to do everything else for them at home. EagleinKY, Sanity? You probably fell for that one hour a week pitch too didn't you?

KS, For the same reason that scouts should contact an MBC for a merit badge. You don't sign boys up for MB's do you? They ask you about doing an MB, you sign off on it and give them the name of a MBC to contact. It is up to the scout to make the call and set it up. It promotes adult interaction, responsibility for ones own actions and advancement and is a lesson in leadership skills to organize, request and coordinate with the committee. We had a situation just this week with a scout. We are having elections next week. This boy has never mentioned to the SM that he was interested in running for SPL. He still had a number of items to be signed off on for 1st class. His mom caught me (ASM) in the hall during the troop meeting and asked me to sign off 3 requirements. The boy tracked down the SM and asked for an SM conference on the spot. This was so he could have his BOR next week prior to the election. I knew that he had completed two of the requirements, but not the third. Unwisely, I signed them when I should have told her it was her son's responsibility to obtain his sign offs, request an SM conference and a BOR. The SM told the boy that our standing policy was to request an SM conference a week in advance and he would not give him one until next week. Once that is complete, he needs to approach the committee to schedule a BOR. The mom went ballistic and stormed out of the church because we were picking on her son. No, we were holding him to the same standard that each boy is fully aware of. I'm not going to question a troop if the adults want to schedule BOR's for the boy, but I believe it is something he should do himself.

fscout, That simply isn't true. If you randomly ask 10 different scouters, you will probably get 4 or 5 different answers. Print it off, take it to 10 non-scouters you know and ask their opinion. Many non-smokers are confused by the language as well. I can turn it around and say that non-smokers are reading it as the prohibition that they want to read into it. As I have said before, the BSA can clear the whole problem up very easily by changing the wording that people find confusing. Then people can complain that they don't like the policy, but they can't argue about what the policy actually means. Taking the view that it means that prohibiting smoking is permissable is a valid interpretation. Until it says can not, will not, shall not or prohibited instead of may not; the controversy will continue to rage and the dead horse will continue to be flogged. It is a simple change.

Tobacco user or not, rationalizing or not, proper grammar or not.....it is apparent that the wording causes confusion. The BSA is aware of this and has never seen fit to change it. If they want it prohibited, just say so. Use a word like "prohibited" that leaves no wiggle room. Can not or shall not will leave less wiggle room than may not. I'm not arguing in favor of tobacco use on outings, I just think the BSA can solve an obvious problem by clarifying their wording in clear concise language. While it may seem clear and concise to many, it obviously is not to others. That point can't be argued. So, how to fix it? Change the wording. Then everyone will be on the same page whether they like what they are reading or not.

Acco, This dead horse has been beaten so many times in this forum that I'm surprised it has any hide left on it. People interpret the passage differently and the BSA has never seen fit to clarify their intent. Lets look at it again. Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. The word prohibit never appears anywhere in the statement. This is kind of like Clinton's old "what is the meaning of is" thing. The BSA chose to use the word "may". Some take that to mean "will" and others take it to mean "might". Which is right? It seems to be whatever the person reading it wants it to be. To some, it seems as clear as a bell. To others, it is clear as mud. The BSA has let it stand without clarification for a long time and it has never been resolved in this forum except in individual poster's minds.

I'm going to make an assumption. You said you are an Eagle Scout and a Venturer and you want to go with your FORMER troop. My assumption is that you have aged out of Boy Scouts. Obviously your 20 and 21 year old friends have. I don't know your relationship with your former troop or how the leadership does things. On the face of it, I wouldn't allow your friends to go and possibly not you. A troops outings program exists for a number of reasons. One is fun. Another is to learn, develop skills and advancement. I don't think I would want several non-family young adults coming along on a pleasure trip in the middle of a troop outing. I believe there could be some insurance issues as well. If I were just a parent instead of an ASM, I would hesitate to send my son out with an additional three people who are not part of the troop and that I've never met. I probably have strong feelings about this because of a situation that happened last year in a troop that we used to belong to. We had a 17 year old boy who was a month away from aging out. This boy had the maturity of a 10 year old and was always causing problems with the new scouts. Many of us were counting the days until he was gone. He nad his dad who is a committee member got the bright idea to make his last campout his last hurrah birthday party and wanted to invite 3 or 4 of his friends and former scout buddies. Those of us with 11 year old sons who had only been in the troop for around 3 to 4 moths were less than thrilled. He occasionally had these friends show up towards the end of troop meetings to pick him up. We are talking boys with spiked hair, long black raincoats, etc. that would roam the church halls while we were in our meeting. We were new and didn't want to rock the boat. Most of us chose to skip that campout because we disagreed with the troop leadership over letting these older non-scout boys attend one of our outings. Now, I have no doubt that you three Eagles are anything like what I described above. But the principle is the same. Scouting is for Scouts. The outings are part of the program we are providing. They should not be used as an weekend out for non-registered or non-family adults. You guys are old enough to go camp on your own. I don't believe you have to be attached to a troop or the BSA to visit the Jambo. I could be wrong.

I got my catalog last week too. I admit to being a catalog junkie. I guess it goes back to thumbing thru the old Sears Wish Book they put out every Christmas with page after page of toys. Yep, the BSA sure has a whole lot of stuff available with the BSA logo on it. It all looks so shiny and pretty. Let's keep in mind folks, you don't have to buy ANY of it. Technically, not even the uniform. Other than the expensive and poorly made uniform and the handbook, the rest of it is optional. I have a camelbak I found on E-bay at half the cost in the stores. I have a Buck knife that is exactly what I want. I have a Surefire high output flashlight that will blind you a mile away. I have a heavy duty nylon backpacking poncho and a set of packable rain gear. I wouldn't go on an outing without any of it. None of it has the BSA logo on it and most of it is superior quality to what is in the BSA catalog. Some of it cost less and some of it cost more than what is in the catalog. I buy gear for it's functionality and by my personal preference. None of it comes from BSA, but I sure like looking at their catalog. Ohhhhh, shiny!!!

Here is a web site that offers many ultra light weight do it yourself stoves. I've built the pepsi can stove and am working on the Zen stove which is made from potted meat cans. http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/index.htm

anarchist, I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I don't want a boy to study a knot right before he shows me and not retain it 5 minutes later either. But, boys being boys, very few of them will sit around the house practicing knots when there is a Playstation available. That is where the troop comes in and provides a means thru their program to reinforce and use these skills. I've studied a number of things over the years. I studied photography and me and my two brothers built a dark room in our parents garage and developed tons of our own pictures. That was 25 years ago. I couldn't tell you the first thing about it today, just basic concepts at best. I do expect the boys to learn it and not just breeze thru it. But I also expect US to provide them with ongoing opportunities to put it in practice. If a boy really learns how to use a taut line hitch today and never uses it in the next four years, I doubt seriously that he will be able to do it on demand. Heck, my son took after his mother and has super fine retention abilities. Show them once and you never have to show them again. I'm an ASM and I have to have him show me knots all the time.....and he is only 11. I blame it on being 47. Arguments can be made that with todays equipment, the need no longer exists for learning to buid a fire, build a shelter or tie a knot. You like me, see these as skills that teach a boy confidence and I believe are valuable survival skills. I'm sure there are some people who just went thru a tsunami who would like to know a few of these skills right now. You never know what is going to happen 10 seconds from now. But they will not remember it long term, no matter how well they learned it, if they are not given opportunities to use it.

Zahnada, Under such circumstances, I think it would be OK. If I were that person, I'd let the admin and/or mods know what I was doing and why. I've been a member of many many other forums of all types. There are group dynamics in internet forums just like there is in real life. People become friends. The old timers carry a certain amount of gravitas. Some people are considered a little kooky, but tolerated. It is the new kid on the block that is always suspect. Especially if he comes in and starts trying to challenge people. I'm not saying this person you speak of did this, I'm just telling you my observations of the internet community as a whole. Some forums are really mean and nasty. Just join a political forum and you'll beging to understand how and why we are living in a polarized nation. People get so filthy and nasty that they get banned from these sites. I guess what I'm trying to say is that becoming a member of a forum isn't unlike joining a church, a troop, a sports team, starting a new school, a new job or moving to a new neighborhood. You are an outsider entering into a group of insiders. Some groups of insiders are nice and welcoming and some are very resistant. In either case, you kind of have to feel your way and see where you fit until everyone is comfortable with everyone else. Then good things usually begin to happen. If someone comes in like gangbusters and starts challenging people and trying to change things, they are met with resistance. Even if they back off later, the damage has already been done and they are suspect in some people's minds. In cases where tempers have flaired, I would possibly try to reinsert myself into the forum as a "new" user if being a member was that important to me. I sure wouldn't do whatever it was that set the rest of the group off again. But I would tell the admin what I was up to.

Hunt, You have a valid point. Let me throw this at you though. I just got a GPS for Christmas. I love it! My son and I have used it this past weekend to go geocaching. One of the first things the intruction book says is to not depend on this unit as your primary navigation tool. It suggests using it in conjunction with a compass. Our troop uses Ez-ups instead of dining flys. You can set an Ez-up in less than a minute. But what if you are faced with needing shelter and all you have is a poncho? It doesn't have an expanding frame and four legs you can just pop up for instant shelter. Another way to look at it is what coaches teach all the time. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. You can get fancy after you know the fundamanetals. The fundamentals are the basic skills you need to be self sufficient. They may not need to use knots with the equipment they use now days, but what do they do if they have to face a situation without that equipment. Sure you can take a blow torch to camp to start a fire, but what if you neen to buid one with a flint and steel? Can you do it? Knots are important. They can be a difference between life and death in some situations.

I don't know how many people have used different ID's here, only one for sure. That was Yaworski/Zorn Packte/Fat Old Guy/JasonOK, etc. He even tried using Bob Whites real name as an ID at one point. Those are only the names I can recall off the top of my head. He had several others too. He even went so far as to answer his own posts using different personas. Go figure. Misrepresenting yourself, harrassing particular members, and stirring things up just to get attention is far different from people in the literary world using a pen name. SR540Beaver is MY second name here. I originally was KWC57. However, I asked Admin-Terry if I could change my name to reflect that I had attended a certain WoodBadge course as a Beaver. He graciously allowed it and even changed the name in all of my previous posts to reflect my new name. I was upfront at the time and told everyone why I did it and even signed my posts with, "formerly KWC57) for a period of time. My question still is, why would anyone want to post as two or more different people at the same time on a Scouting board except for devious reasons?

I know I've told this story before....but what the heck, I'll tell it again. That really irritates my wife, BTW. When we were looking for a troop for my son to crossover to, we went to one of the more popular and "successful" troops in our area to visit. My son was off with the boys and I was visiting with some of the leaders. Talk turned to summer camp and their plans to travel a long distance to camp. They explained that their boys just found the council camp to be too boring. They then informed me that they had not been to the council camp in 10 years. 10 YEARS!!! How do you know your boys don't like it? How do you know that it has not changed in the past decade? Word of mouth? Often we hear what we want to hear. The camp has been running for about 40 years to my knowledge and has never failed to fill up. The SM has been at this troop for about 20 years. I wonder what the real story is?

Hey LV, many people still consider climbers to be insane!

SP, Amen brother!

Dan, I don't like the idea of doing merit badges at troop meetings. That isn't what they are designed for. I have no problem with the troop working on a merit badge together on a night or weekend outside of the troop meeting though. I don't like the idea of telling the boys that we are all doing a certain merit badge and not giving them a choice. What if he isn't interested in doing that particular MB? He can opt not to participate, but what if you are using troop meeting time to do it? It short changes the boys who don't want to do it while the others are doing it. If they do participate to just go along with what the troop i doing, how is that better than an MB mill? The one difference is that you might not pass them where they would pass if they went to a mill. But then you have a ticked off scout who attended meetings he didn't want to, took an MB he wasn't interested in and then failed something that was forced on him. I don't totally disagree with you on summer camp. It is a problem that needs fixing. But I don't think getting away from MB's is really the answer. We've had a few camp outs that were deemed "fun" camp outs. Just time to be out in nature with your friends. They get bored and trouble starts brewing. Obviously the answer is to keep it structured, but then it is a planned trip and not a "fun" trip anymore. I don't know that you can take a bunch of 11, 12, 13, etc. year old boys to camp for 7 days and keep them busy enough to stay out of trouble without providing the program that MB's provide. Now I'm all for making some of them 2 hours a day instead of 1 hour and being much more indepth. I'm also all for the 16 year old MBC's having to prove they know their stuff in order to teach the course and get the job. I think I might have expanded on your comments a little to the extreme. My comments are not meant to offend. I'm hoping that when you say do MB's at troop meetings, you mean taking a portion of the meeting to do the work instead of the whole meeting. I do know of troops that spend the whole meeting working on MB's because they don't use the patrol method and don't know what else to do. This troop came and visited our Webelos den when we were checking out troops. The SM told us that they work on MB's and that they were going to play laser tag for this weeks meeting. We steered clear of that troop.

scoutingagain, I'm probably talking out of turn since I have not even looked at the Emergency Preparedness MB book. Depending on the kind of information it contains and the work involved, I can see how EP could equate with Life Saving. Living here in Oklahoma with the tornados we have come thru or in an area prone to flooding, hurricanes or forest fires, EP is extremely important and a can be a real life saver.

anarchist, Good points. No, we have no formal policy. We are a new and small troop. The SM is an Eagle scout and our district trainer. He preaches all the time about earning as opposed to getting and is true to his word.