skeptic

Not sure I want my VP, or possibly P, winking at other world statespeople while in discussions of international import. She did better than I would have thought, but as noted, really did not improve my opinion much. Biden obviously was able to draw on better personal experience in answering. Again, as noted, it would be great to actually see and hear a true debate where the participants actually spoke to each other and actually addressed the subject head on.

Peripherally related to this is an article I saw in PARADE (I think)last week It talks about a man in the SW who has developed portable housing from large shipping containers and is beginning to sell them in Mexico to families living in shanties of old wood, cardboard, and so on. Cost to them less than $10,000, which even there, most can afford. The size is generally about 350-400 sq ft, and includes a small full bath and kitchen, as well as two small sleeping areas. They can be stacked or joined in various configurations to make small clusters for community, or simply set alone. I could not help but wonder if this might not be a plan for dealing with our own homeless in many cases. A bit of donated land (tax write-off), or public space; money paid in welfare or other inadequate income for many on the street could support the cost and get a large percentage into something safer and more sanitary. The point again is that there is a big difference between want and need. Too many of us have either forgotten that, or never knew the difference in the first place for some reason. Just the ranting of another "old guy" born during WWII and raised in a family that lived through the depression. My brother and I were "latch-key" kids in the 50's.

"Scoutingagain"; great post. Next time you go to a market, watch how many people are checking through with numbers of six packs or cases of beer, and often bottled liquor. Often they will add on two or three packs of cigarettes. Same people complain they cannot afford their bills. Lets see, for a hundred dollars or so I can buy enough food to cook at home for two for a couple of weeks; may not be glamorous, but it is enough and fairly balanced. And, reality is that even that is probably more than we actually need many times. How many unworn items of clothing, or pairs of shoes do we need in our closet; I know that I likely rarely wear over half of what is still there, and I have not bought much in the past year. Let's be real for a moment. Even if we as a society are forced to "give up" much of what we seem to think we need, we will still be far better off than most of the rest of the world, even if some of the things we still have are a bit dated.

Yep, the idea of God in us is not necessarily so far fetched. Depending on how you might interpret biblical writings, there are passages that hint at such an idea, starting with the "and God created Man in His own image". While I have gotten pretty rusty on remembering many quotes, it seems to me there are others that most of us would find familiar and could possibly be interpreted in such a manner. Those on this board with better credentials can possibly note them. As far as the scouts go, I do not personally see that being a negative, as it shows a deeper spiritual understanding than simply "God exists" or some such thing.

So, what we seem to have is an understanding that the conference of which we speak is for advancement, but the written description is not worded as such. So, perhaps the people with the ability should review a minor revision of the wording to make it fit the intent, and make it clear that this might lead to secondary, or possibly even tertiary conferences in rare cases. Of course, as a leader, we can also simply tell the scout up front that there is this possibility. No matter what, you will have occasional difficult decisions as a SM, and also occasional misunderstandings or simply demanding scouts and/or parents.

Moderators: at what point do you decide to lock down the pettiness by simply locking the thread? Please, I am getting a headache trying to wade through all this nonsense in hope that something worthwhile may appear. I really would prefer not to simply block them, as occasionally they actually have something to say that is on point and is not petty bickering and fingerpointing. Thanks for listening.

Sorry, but that is too cut and dried, which of course is why this discussion is still happening (well, bull headed and obdurate personalities aside); Most reasonable and legitimate rules/laws should be obeyed, but harmful, or unreasonable ones are subject to question and possible pressure to change, including civil disobedience or similar activity.

Many of you may have read Heinlien's STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. I am reminded of the book with these discussions, as the main character (forgot name), who was human, but born and raised on Mars by Martians, and returned to Earth by a later exploration party, often said something to the effect "Thou Art God". The premise in the book, as far as I could ascertain anyway, was the idea that Martians believed God was in everyone, thus the expression, "Thou Art God". The problems arose though from an apparent ritual of what we would call cannibalism, something about becoming one with the other on death. The idea though that God is part of us all, and we are thus part of each other really gives a different perspective on things.

Okay guys; agree to disagree and move on!! This continued nonsense is the kind of thing that will drive people away from bothering to read any more. And that could deprive them of something that is actually useful. Enough already!! JMHO

Well, perhaps we should add something to reflect today's problems; you know, surviving in the urban jungle after you end up on the street. Just kidding!!

My experience is pretty much frustration, with email, a troop site with a calendar, and phone messages. Seldom get any responses to anything. Scouts and parents complain they did not know, but there were verbal reminders, paper reminders, calendar entries, and emails. Being busy is not an excuse. Unfortunately, I think it is simply a reflection of our society again. Unless it is a high priority at the moment, it is ignored. Commitment to anything is contingent on something more interesting or fun not coming along. But that is just me; maybe I am all wet, or simply too old.

Typical guy things, like all else, need to be monitored to make sure they stay "typical" and do not lead to poor decisions. That being said, we all did the arm punching back in "the day"; but we followed the unspoken code to stop when asked. Too much protection is just as bad as not enough; kids need to do kid things. JMHO

nolesrules: While I can understand your comment about leaving things in HOA documents, you need to understand the ridiculous and expensive process, at least in California, it takes to legally change these things. Our original documents dated to the beginning, and were implemented at the start of the association. California law has constantly changed, making many parts of the governing documents unenforceable. Two years or so ago, we finally got them updated. The process took over a year of legal rewriting and ended up costing over $5000. And they still were not in effect until over sixty-four percent of the owners approved the changes; that took another 4-6 months to implement. Of course, since then, some areas of the newly rewritten ones are already unenforceable. But we can not afford to go through the process again at this time, so we just simply ignore them. Still, new owners sign that they will follow these rules. Another example of why lawyers and our legal system are so often excoriated, as well as our so-called representatives.

Yep, a twenty year vet pin from mid 70's or earlier. I have a 10 year similar to it I got about 76 or so, with one Roman numeral; but my 15 has regular numbers.

We had a scout for about 3 years with it, and he struggled a lot with some of its effects. But he was on a lot of meds that kept it somewhat under control. His tics were usually relatively minor, and the outbursts fairly rare. But, on longer outings, especially summer camp, over tiredness and not getting meds on time made it harder for us all. Early on though, with the permission of the parents (actually his father participated)we sat the boys down and simply discussed it with them. That made a huge difference, and he was generally accepted. He finally dropped out as advanced puberty made his meds harder to keep balanced and it became too hard for him and everyone. Not sure if he might not have been an extreme case. The main thing was that the troop members generally understood and dealt with it, sometimes better than adults.

Let's look at this from the perspective of what our society in general does in education. "No Child Left Behind" has proven to be a wonderful idea, but not very practical in the way it is being pushed. Important cultural subjects are being put in the "if we can find time" category, while teachers are basically teaching to the test rather than developing independent knowledge. Passing the test is all that is important; it makes no difference if you forget it afterwards. Scout skills need to be practiced, or they will not be remembered very well, especially pioneering, compass, and even first aid. So teaching the skill and having it replicated satisfactorily is only the first step. There needs to be a way to "keep the skill", by regular all inclusive troop practice and using it in the field if possible. We no longer can do many things in camping that we did even in the 60's due to forest and conservation restrictions. There also is far less need to actually "use" many of these skills. For example, most modern tents, even if they have guy lines, have wood or metal toggles to take tension. Every summer, I have to show kids and adults how to use the taut-line to take up the slack in wall tents, since the toggles are broken or missing. Few of them have really understood the "utility" of the knot. When I was a newbie scout in 1955 I thought I would never make tenderfoot. We had to know seven knots, and in our troop, you tied them all correctly in succession twice. Miss even one, and you came back the next week. Then, even if you did it one week, you had to do it again the next or start over. That was the way it was. In camp, we actually needed to make gadgets because there were no pre-made ones. So, where does that leave us? Find ways I guess to replicate the skills and make them useful? No easy answers, but no matter what, we really need to make sure the scout at least does it completely and correctly more than once, even initially. JMHO

One way to keep the citizenship focus there, but eliminate required badges would possibly be putting them back into a single badge in the manner of the old Civics badge. Some general requirements that are inclusive of all 3 levels, then some more specific focus in one or two requirements for each area. Not sure about Family Life, which is really sort of related to the old Citizenship in the Home and the Family Living skill award. Could also re-institute the grouping ideas for some required badges like we had in the 50's; choose one from -----, that type of thing. But, what would do the most good, IMHO, is to put some time restrictions on the early ranks again; a boy could still get to FC in a year, but it would possibly strengthen the basic skills a bit if done right, especially putting something akin to signaling in again. I know for me, that was absolutely the most difficult part of FC; but it instilled a certain level of life growth by making me focus and work hard to accomplish it.

From what is viewable, I would have to say this is NOT a scouting uniform from that era, or even an earlier era. Frankly, it looks more like the Japanese military uniforms seen in many WWII photos if anything. Realistically, it is likely an outfit put together from what was available at the time under stressful circumstances. JMHO.

"Perhaps someone should "try" to explain that to the current Executive team! Not that they actually understand or care." I don't know what that means. Redefining the intent and meaning of "Executive Privilege"; e.g. refusing to respond to Congressional orders and so on. Fabricating special rules which fly in the face of our constitution and claiming it as their right, due to National Security. You cannot have forgotten that?!!?

"Congress makes policy. The President only executes it." Perhaps someone should "try" to explain that to the current Executive team! Not that they actually understand or care. Ooops; my disfavor is showing. Sorry. Frankly, I am not sure there is a politician of any ilk that really cares about the actual issues or what his or her constituents actually think, or how things effect them. But maybe I am just being cynical again.

Mr. LeRoy: It seems to me that you have, as part of your agenda, the idea that everybody in the BSA should abide by your understanding of how membership requirements should be administered. What you appear to never see is that most of the people who actually work within the program are not there to be nit pickers, but rather to do whatever is reasonable to bring the program to the greatest amount of youth possible. Your constant harping on the idea that a youth's statement made from a still maturing mind set should immediately be a reason to "kick them out" simply proves to me how narrow your mind is. Most of us realize, as has been noted many times, that these youth are likely still searching for a final conclusion. Expecting an adolescent to have made an absolute decision about spiritual matters is really showing poor understanding. Of course I realize that you will have your usual flippant comeback that our allowing gray areas in our interpretations is being hypocritical. Most rational individuals see it for what it is; simply allowing them to search and grow. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Jeans, or their equivalent for the period in history; always technically. As already noted, uniforming is not an absolute, at least on paper. Some troops have very specific policies, but it is not required; and partial uniforms have generally been considered as better than none at all. Many old photos will show all kinds of mis-matched attire, especially in the depression, but very few larger group photos from the early days have 100% uniforming.

It is "almost" funny, but actually sad the way some individuals on this board seem to live in a black cloud of negativity. Instead of constantly digging for any and all you perceive as wrong, then going on incessantly about it, why don't you just focus on your own troops or areas and work to improve them? It would not surprise me to find out a few of the worst are not even actually involved at this point, but are only here to stir the pot. While there are lots of reasons to question some decisions, and even some very specific negative occurrences, most are completely blown out of proportion, and considering the size of the organization, a very small incidence comparatively. Flame barrier up!!

Somewhere I believe I read that they are planning on offering the pamphlets through regular bookstores, such as Barnes and Noble. A good reason to make them more attractive visually, even if the content remains the same. Time will tell, but sounds like a good idea to me.

Have to agree with GW on this. We have a website, and half the members have never visited it, even though it has calendar, notices, congratulations, historical data, and tons of photos. Do not know how many times a scout or parent has told me they did not know such and such; asked why they did not look at the web site, they just shrugged and said it took too much time. Many seldom read emails either, then complain that they were not contacted. But they do not answer the phone or return calls either. Much has to do with simply the way they live. Whatever is in front of them at the moment is what is important and gets their attention.