SeattlePioneer

Personally I see nothing wrong with community organization proposing projects they would like to see done. I would oppose a Scoutmaster twisting a Scout's arm if he wanted to choose something else.

What things in your community do you see that might make good Eagle projects that you would like to see done? Are there ways to promote such projects for Scouts to consider?

> The issue is certainly speculative, and really pointless to discuss. I would suppose that pretty much EVERY person who applies for a security clearance is thoroughly scrutinized, so suggesting that such an application by Obama would be scrutinized is NORMAL, not a crackpot theory. It's not my purpose to impugn Obama, who has proven himself to be a decent and generous guy, especially by the standards of high ranking politicians. Unfortunately, you can't really discuss the issue without impugning Obama by implication, which is why it's a worthless topic to discuss. Sorry I got sucked into it.

Hello MRJ, You are raising excellent questions. > These are good questions. What alternatives are available? You describe a Troop Committee that has a plan to fail and has been carrying out that plan for years. They are good at carrying out their plan and don't want too change. So I'd start by asking about what alternative troops might be available that don't have a toxic program. What group is the Chartered Organization and who is the Chartered Organization Rep? It might be possible to do a housecleaning of poor leaders and then start with a new program emphasizing a quality program and recruiting to rebuild what is there.

I support Scout Nut's advice. People can be thoughtless and boorish. I can be thoughtless and boorish. I hope your daughter will go back and work through the issues and win her award.

> Obama presumably never had occasion for a security clearance before he was elected to the Senate. Obama's background and the political and social history of his father might lead a reasonable person to call that association "questionable" in my opinion. Obama's curious history in Indonesia as a youth might be called questionable from a security clearance perspective (I'm guessing of course). His later history in college and law school starts to look a lot more main stream. Of course, his association with his nutty pastor and left wing terrorists left over from the 1960s again might raise warning flags. He had loads of foreign relatives who might be used for leverage by a foreign power. But until he got into the Senate he had no occasion for a security clearance. Did he get one then? Interesting question. Dismissing all of Obama's baggage is not a reasonable thing to do without carefully weighing the risks that might go along with that baggage. I'm not qualified to do so, but raising the issue is certainly reasonable.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Interesting that the commitment to "diversity" by the New York Times and Washington Post seems pretty thin when people choose values not approved of by media and cultural elites used to dictating to the rest of the country.

The uniforming methods for my pack include: 1) I am always in uniform. 2) As soon as boys join the pack, they are awarded a neckerchief and slide, and they are considered to be "in uniform" when they are wearing their neckerchief and slide. I cut 20 neckerchiefs out of a colorful thrift shop sheet, and cut slides from sections of a tree branch with a hole drilled through it. 3) Families can earn their pack dues by selling $200 in popcorn. If they sell more than that 25% of the additional sales are reserved for the families use for Scouting purposes (such as camps and uniforms).

> Thank you, that's very kind. Since you liked that example, I'll give you another. At our first Tiger Cub Camp meeting Wednesday evening, the new Tiger Cubs designed and made their own Tiger Cub Den flags. One of the two dens was enterprising enough to name themselves "The American Tigers"! While they were assisted by the parent partners, it's clear from the workmanship on the flags that the boys mostly did the design of the flag themselves. The Tiger Cubs made "Pie Iron Pizza" at the camp Wednesday as a snack, and roasted ears of corn Thursday evening as a snack Thursday. We did hammering and nailing practice Wednesday, and then Thursday the two Tiger Cub dens competed against each other in a relay race driving nails in a board. Several of the Tiger Cubs need a lot more practice with hammering and nailing. Because of that, I cancelled a craft project on building a wooden stool from a kit, which involves quite a bit of nailing. Just too much for several of those boys, and it wouldn't have been age appropriate yet. Search, Discover, Share! That's the Tiger Cub motto and my aim is to show parents how they can make their Tiger Cub Programs a success when they start them up this fall. Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread --- but we start building Boy Scout in Cub Scouts as far as I'm concerned! And Boy Scout parents, too.

I would like to congratulate you in taking a contuinuing interest in Scouting. I would encourage you to visit your district Boy Scout Roundtable and the District Committee meetings each usually held once per month. Your council or district website should have information on these meetings. Both are ways to meet people and learn about program from other Troops in your area. The district committee meetings plan activities like camporees and recruiting campaigns to find new Scouts. Becoming informed about such things will broaden your understanding of Scouting, and you will find a variety of additional things you might decide are worth your time to work on.

Hello Moosetracker, > Did you like the billionaires who bought and paid for Obama in 2008 better?

Hello Dean,

> I use this basic principle beginning in our district Tiger Cub Camp, done in conjunction with the Cub Scout Day Camp. I did a competition between two just formed Tiger Cub dens --- an exercise in stting up tents the boys had never seen before. (although a third tent was set up as an example they could copy). The boys had to figure out what to do and how to cooperate to get it done while their parent partners looked on, only able to offer helpful advice (mostly ignored). Both dens got their tents up after awhile (no rain flys), and they all piled into the tent and zipped it up to give their new den yell as best they could remember it. Of course they were all as happy as could be when they got done. One of my aims with this camp is to show the parents how to conduct an effective Scout program. I'd say this exercise was a good example of how to do that.

> I'll do that. I'd be interested in what they have to say.

Forty years ago when I was a radical left winger, a chess playing partner of mine related his experiences twenty years earlier being investigated by the Feds for being a Communist. Apparently he and most of his buddies were given the typical McCarthy kind of investigation, asking for names of Communists and so on. They all resisted that kind of investigation. I asked him if any of those people had in fact been Communists. "Oh!" he said, "All of us!" I always remembered that, and when I gave up my left wing ways to be a Republican in 1984, that was part of the reason. Communists were dangerous extremists and they DESERVED and NEEDED to have their subversive influence investigated.

I had a parent ask me about this in a Tiger Cub Den several years ago. His son was in a martial arts class and he wanted to know why BSA didn't recognize such activities. I speculated that BSA generally didn't recognize activities where boys could be expected to be hit in the head as a regular part of the activities. That includes regular football, for example. He accepted that, and it's still the best answer I have, although it's mostly speculation on my part. Once again, the lawyers run the world. Also, while no doubt some martial arts programs are well run, others no doubt are poorly run, perhaps with poor skills and poor judgement by leaders and poor protective equipment and methods. Poor programs may be particularly hazardous, but most parents aren't going to be able to evaluate such things very well, I would suppose.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Nike, I'd have no objection to an AHG unit that wanted to be independent of the Cub Pack. But the issue at hand is how to get a unit started. I've spent the last four years building up our Cub pack from one boy to about fourteen or so, with reasonable adult leadership and financing. Will still need to grow more, to twenty five or so anyway, but I think we're on our way to doing that. It would be a LOT easier to organize an AHG unit for girls alongside the Cub Pack. We could combine recruiting and a good deal of program and in general help the AHG unit get up and running. After all, there would be a common Chartered Organization, a Catholic parish. I don't see any reason why they couldn't be run by a more or less joint committee if that's what was desired. (I'm the pack treasurer). I am surprised that sheldon's mom reports that her unit runs quite separate AHG and Cub Scout organizations. Closer relationships seem like the natural way to go, but not for sheldon's mom's unit. I'm probably a year away from deciding whether to take a serious run at that as a project.

Just pay your dues and wear your patch. No worries about "paper OAs"? I'm recalling the sensitivity on a recent thread about BSA applications for real boys, signed by real parents and paid for with real dollars that were objected to by some for being "paper Scouts" because of doubts about some metaphysical level of participation.

> You might want to investigate the American Heritage Girls as an alternative to GSUSA. AHG is like Boy Scots in that chartered organizations have ownership and control over appointing leaders. There is currently an active thread on AHG in this forum, and there are a number of other threads on this board you might locate on that group. I'm considering starting a program for girls to supplement our Cub Scout Pack, and my inclination would be to choose AHG over GSUSA. I'm imagining that the two could dovetail more easily than with GSUSA.

Hello Mom, I would be interested in how you manage the Pack/AHG relationship. At least initially I'm supposing that the Cub Pack would take responsibility for recruiting and administering the AHG unit, and then working to bring new AHG families into taking more responsibility for the unit as new leaders are identified. It might be possible and desirable to continue having two programs administered by a common leadership --- a joint "Pack/AHG Committee" but separate Cubmaster, AHG Cubmaster equivalent and such to run the two programs for youths. That's what I'm imagining anyway.

> Your Scoutmaster shouldn't be offended at discussing program weaknesses and how to deal with them. He should be glad that weaknesses are identified. He should make it a priority to find ways to overcome the weaknesses, whether they are the methods you propose or different ones. Some degree of failure can be educational. Too much will simply drive boys out of the program. The Trail To First Class is a progression of skills, so new Scouts aren't expected to be experienced campers. They need guidance on how to do a camping trip successfully and in learning the skills. So I'd talk to the Scoutmaster and work with him on identifying how to deal with these issues. I hope you let us know how that works in the days and weeks to come. I'd like to hear how this patrol progresses in developing camping skills.

Hello cubdad, No doubt the smart thing to do and very likely the necessary thing to do. But also a good example of how we overreact to such things because of news media hysteria, which creates government hysteria and lack of proportion in dealing with a natural impulse by boys. I'm inclined to feel sorry for the kid.

It's probably easier and less disruptive to move the unit while it's small and before you've moved to expand it rather than after.

Personally I think good packs tend to plan of giving den leaders a break or at least giving them a new job after a couple of years as Den Leader. Experienced Den Leaders might be tapped to be an Assistant Cubmaster or Cubmaster, and I'd look for someone with good camping skills to be a Webelos Den Leader.

Our Scout shop will have everything sewn on a new uniform for a small fee.