SeattlePioneer

Hello Shortridge, The bottom line is --- we disagree. You are entitled to your views and I'm entitled to mine. A corollary of that is that you are entitled to your views and BSA is entitled to its views and policies. The reason politics is often contentious is not disagreements of "the fact and the figures" or even self interest or money. The main reason that politics is contentious is that it involves disagreements over values. Cultures make value choices and competing cultures often disagree over which values should rule. On the issue of BSA policies, it is up to BSA to decide what their policies will be with regard to homosexuals. You don't like it, but that's the bottom line.

Hello BSA24, > You mean you've found several means of recruiting that work for you. There are a wide variety of means that can and do work. From my experience as a unit leader and district membership chair, it can take several recruiting cycles and the experimentation that goes along with that to identify the means that are effective for recruiting new Scouts. One size doesn't fit all. Indeed, it's a lot closer to say that recruiting methods need to be tailored to each unit. I got one hit off of beascout.org a week or two ago. The previous one was a couple of months ago. One of my current unit recruiting goals is to expand the number of Latino families in my Cub pack, because they are a large component of the population in the area. My efforts resulted in one new Latino family recruited during spring recruiting, and a second a few weeks ago. Because of improved methods and because the parent recruited a few weeks ago is keen to support my efforts, I'm expecting Latinos to be half the pack by next June. Some new Scouts may fall into your unit like pennies from heaven. But a lot more are waiting to join if you use effective recruiting methods.

Why would we eschew the guidance of religion in making decisions on values? Just for openers though, for most of human history populations usually struggled to be able to maintain a population base. Endorsement of homosexuality arguably would have driven groups that adopted it into decline and oblivion. Much of the "developed" world seems to be headed in that direction now.

For a while when I was Cubmaster, I made up my own awards for adult leaders who deserved recognition. I sawed a segment out of a tree branch and inked in "Cub Scout Hero." I attached a good sized ribbon and a safety pin to the back. I called adult honorees forward along with their boy, and had the Scout pin the award on their parent. As an example, we had a mom who ran our popcorn sale for the first time, and did a nice job of it. She had three young children in the family and a husband serving in Afghanistan. As far as I'm concerned, no adult deserved recognition more. I think the Scouts valued having their parents recognized, and the parents appreciated it because their children appreciated it. So I think recognizing adults CAN be worthwhile for a youth organization to do --- but no doubt it can be overdone.

I wandered into the pistol shooting range while I was at Michigan State University one evening. I had fun shooting a .22 automatic pistol that evening. It was a blast, although I didn't go back. I'm guessing that the single shot rifles that BSA uses make it a lot easier to keep track of where boys are pointing firearms and reducing the risk of boys firing when not planning to do so. I imagine that pistols would make it more difficult to control those kinds of issues. If Scouts ran the camps, they would be shooting with Maxim machine guns!

Nothing is more common than for organizations to have elaborate grievance procedures which are routinely ignored in practice. The more elaborate the procedure, the more likely that it will be ignored. Getting the Girl Scout Council to follow their own procedure is probably a good strategy though. I don't agree with Twocubdad that you are acting unreasonably. It's insulting to be dropped as a leader without a hearing, especially when a hearing is required by their own procedures. Just because the unit leader made a plausible sounding complaint, or even a complaint that might be real, is not a good reason to act so unilaterally. I've heard second hand about my own BSA council suspending an adult leader without a hearing. Probably that was related to a suspected or actual Youth Protection violation. A good deal of effort was spent trying to get a hearing on the issue by unit leaders, but I don't know what the result was. Hearings and such are burdensome and can be expensive. It's a lot simpler to just suspend someone who seems to be a problem or nuisance.

Hello Polaris, Very nice pin! In addition to the nice pin, you have a link to your excellent website, which adds a lot to the limited amount of information on the pin. I'm vain about my unit's pin, but with the addition of your website you easily outclass my pin! Darn! Loved the Tiger Cub Den One pictures and program! (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> In my opinion, the main problem with unit popcorn sales is that most units have a poor business plan. Units don't have a well thought out, effective plan to motivate Scouts and families to sell in effective ways. A year ago I used our August Cub Scout Roundtable to bring in unit leaders who were doing an excellent job on the popcorn sale. I used several of those ideas last year and tripled our unit sales.

Dear fellow Scout Leaders, One of the coolest new aids in recruiting Scouts is the B.S.A. beascout.org website! It allows those interested in joining Scouts to shop around their home area on a map for a Scout unit that looks appealing to them, and send an e-mail inquiry directly to Scout leaders. Give it a try! Personally, I'm very proud of the "Pin" for my Pack 240 that appears on the map. Go to beascout.org, select Cub Scouts and enter 98146 for the zip code. Select Pack 240, unit #2 as listed. Next try checking the pin for your own unit ---- perhaps it needs to be updated or customized with information for your unit by your unit leader! Information on updating your unit pin is at http://www.seattlebsa.org/Membership/Update-Your-Unit-on-the-Be-A-Scout-Map If you need help updating your pin, let me know. If you are proud of your unit pin, please let me know ----I'd like to see it! On July 12th I got an e-mail from beascout.org giving me information on a new family interested in joining Cub Scout Pack 240 ---- has your unit been missing out on those leads? Best, Will Skubi Membership Chair Aquila District Chief Seattle Council

As a district membership chair of vast experience (eight years), I've worked closely with three DEs so far. Since my major task is to promote recruiting and retention of new Scouts, DEs have every incentive to support someone working to carry out one of their major tasks. Since one of the DEs primary responsibilities is organizing spring and fall recruiting, I let the DE take that responsibility and let him know that I am ready and willing to help out with school visits, recruiting nights or whatever when he needs some help. Secondarily, I take the primary responsibility for organizi9ng recruiting events for several packs and a troop in the spring and fall. That relieves the DE from spending time on those units and we don't have conflicts about who is doing what. That works well. My only gripe is being left out of the information flow of statistics and scheduling of recruiting nights and such. A year ago I discovered that the only recruiting events scheduled in the spring were the ones I had done. I wasn't happy with that, but I discovered it more or less by chance after the fact. I'm not the DEs boss, but I keep the DE informed about what I do, and I want him to keep me informed about what he is doing about recruiting.

Interesting thread. Since gay rights advocates have completely failed to change BSA policies through law, through the courts, and through moral argument, make a purely speculative GUESS as to when you will get what you want. Maybe this will be a new lame stream media method, since nothing else they have tried works. Pretty pathetic though.

> Do tell!

1. Ideally you check the references and get to know new people before appointing them as leaders. 2. If a person is discovered to have personality characteristics that make them an unacceptable BSA leader, you deal with that issue when it's discovered or apparent.

There are too many troop meetings if you have meetings every week anyway. Missing a meeting because you've been on a weekend campout seems like a good reason for dispensing with a meeting.

My inclination would be to find the previous Scoutmaster a new job in Scouting outside contact with the Scouts. I've accepted people who lost their self control in the presence of Scouts ----once. Anyone can have a bad day. But you describe a person who indulges in bad behavior repeatedly, and that isn't acceptable. The current SM appears to be unwilling to grasp the thistle and deal with the problem. This is already causing significant compromises in the troop, such as the SM not going on the hike. Furthermore, hiking young Scouts into the ground is not an acceptable tactic by the SPL. When you recognized this as a problem you had a responsibility to take action to correct it, in my view. Personally I wouldn't be critical of the method you used --- you acted reasonably in my view. I would be inclined to talk turkey with the Scoutmaster about the former Scoutmaster, and talk with the Committee Chair if that doesn't lead to a recognition of the problem. At a minimum the SM and/or CC need to make it clear to the former SM that further displays of temper will result in him being separated from the Troop program.

What time do you schedule the meetings?

Is there a Cub Pack with some Webelos coming along? I'd plan on a fall recruiting program to see if you can find new Scouts and families to help revitalize the troop and the adult leadership. You might need to make it plain that if you don't get the support and cooperation of existing leaders, you will have to spend your time doing the recruiting and providing leadership to new Scouts, rather than existing Scouts. Is there a current parent who could provide supportive leadership if they were appointed as Committee Chair? A good new Committee Chair could turn the whole committee situation around.

Many people have ridiculed the "Guide to Sage Scouting" ban on using little red wagons. But the reason seems obvious to me: You can't ride in my little red wagon (You can't ride in my little red wagon) Front seats broken and the axles dragging (Front seats broken and the axles dragging) choga (choga) choga (choga) choga choga choga (choga choga choga) Chronic poor maintenance and repair. An obvious safety hazard.

Hello advancement lady, Very sad. Unfortunately this illustrates why choosing adult leaders is a critical function of Scouting leadership. Choose an ego driven person or someone lacking experience or good judgment, and you can badly impair your program. Have you considered volunteering to sit on that committee in the future? It sounds like you would be a likely prospect!

Just to put a point on Callooh! Callay!'s comment, the only real difference between the fiscal management of the Federal government and state and local government is the ability of the Feds to manufacture as many trillions of dollars of new money as may be desired.

I like Lisabob's idea of working to transition towards the service hours as being part of regular activities, rather than organizing a special project by a Scout. The special projects are an interesting way of adapting to the particular situation of the troop, but I'd aim for the more conventional purposes of the service hours when that is practical. Of course if a Scout wants to do a project, that would certainly be something the Scout and Scoutmaster might agree upon.

I have a particular project that I'd like to see done for our local Kiwanis Club camp that they maintain in town for youth. The camp is located behind a public middle school. The only way into it is to go through the grounds of the school, which is not intuitive at all. It can be tough for someone not familiar with the camp to find it. Indeed, the first time I went to the camp for a district picnic, I didn't find it. I knew where it OUGHT to be, but still couldn't find it. Ever since then, I've made a point of taking portable signs and yard signs to mark the entrance when I have an activity there, but I don't know how common that is. I would like to see a nice permanent sign made to mark the location of the camp ---- perhaps two or three. On one side of the road you would need to get permission of the neighboring hospital, and on the other side permission from the school. Of course permission of the Kiwanis club would be needed as well. It would be a good and useful project for an Eagle project I would think. There are several troops in the area, and I might send this idea to the Scoutmasters or the district Boy Scout Roundtable to circulate the project as a possibility.

> Sorry, I continue to see nothing wrong with a Scout who might examine the wish list of a community organization and to make one of those wishes something he might choose to do as a project. And the advantages of doing that might be significant. I've seen Eagle projects that sprang from the mind of a Scout that are neglected from lack of maintenance after they are done and eradicated after a few years because no one else has an interest in them. A project which reflects a real need by an organization is likely to be maintained and used for years or decades to come.

How inspiring! Speculating about "The Triumph of Liberalism" over Boy Scouts! Does that really give people a cheap thrill?

> The diversity we really need, and the diversity I suppose was discussed, is finding ways to attract the mushrooming populations of Latinos, Asians and African Americans. Personally I will be putting a major part of the effort in my Cub Pack recruiting this fall targeting Latino families, who are especially numerous in my district and area. By comparison, the homosexual and atheist issues are trivial with respect to membership and recruiting in my opinion and experience.