Scoutfish

WOW! That is soooo what I meant!

I am confused about something: So the family of the scout who did the slapping says the scout who did the slapping is traumatized? Seriously? Why and how? Because he had to apologize? And if I am understanding this right...I'd like to ask them how they think they can refuse. If I was the scoutmaster, I would say : " Your son WILL make the presentation. Your son will talk to the troop about it!" PERIOD! I'm iffy on community service, but a verbal presentation is NOT out of line. I'd tell the parents that this is the first step to avoid being expelled out of the troop, and it's not negotiable!

We used to charge $36 a year annual dues: $18 to BSA ( $15 for recharter and $3 for insurance) $18 for pack expenses ( awards, badges, beltloops , etc) We had extra fees per event such as trips, campouts, Patriots Point, etc... Last Monday at out annual planning meeting, we raised the cost to $50 a year. You can pay at once or 2 paymenst if you like. We also decided ona $2 a month den dues to be used for beltloops. We do have 2 fundraisers a year in the way of B-B-Q chicken dinners ( spring and fall) I can't provide exact figurs per scout as we always loose one or two from each rank as th4e year goes by( various reasons) but we have numbers right now showing our pack went through about $29,000 this past year. That in and outflow of cash and includes everything . Everthing meaning phone tree, pack master, pack ledger office supplies and the neckers and books we present at cub graduation . As mentioned above, it's a great deal. My son played soccer for about 2 - 2 1/2 months. It cost $65 not including uniform. Baseball for 2 1/2 months. Almost $100 including uniform and pictures. Cub Scouts: 12 months and it is now going to cost $50. And he can't hardly wait for each den meeting to happen!

As part of the Aquanaut Activity badge, you are required to ( #2 ) : Stay in the water AFTER the swim and FLOAT on you back and front, and demonstrate survival flaoting. Then a few pages later, the book says( and I qoute): MOST boys can float on their backs. About one in 20 can't float unless he moves his arms and legs.See if you can float without moving. Okay, I AM one of those guys who cannot float on my back. WEll wait, let me rephrase that: My bach and head can float as well as my arms, but my legs just can't grasp the idea of floating. I can pick them up and try all I want, but my legs just don't float. Same if I try to float facing frontward. Now here's my question: At what point does floating by moving your arms and legs become swimming? Do your arms legs have to move so many inches? Would that be treading instread of floating? What would you consider the transition? Not, it isn't, hasn't or will it be an issue..Just my brain going into overtime!

Nah, not a blind B&W assesmant. I too had the impression you were going to have a mixed group: " Prior to arriving at the holes I intent to have the Safe Swim Defense talk with the Scouts, establish buddy groups based on ability groups, designate lookouts and life guards, and then do establish causal & unmarked ability areas when we arrive (i.e. non-swimmers stay over there, beginners don't go past those there rocks, swimmers can go anywhere)." But if it was a complete group of swimmers only...or only non swimmers only...Then I don't see a problem as you base the whole "swim" on that groups ability. AS far as "established" pools or such..most established pools have either marking or already have a rope/float line in place to denote the drop off area. You can bet that a BSA camp is eitrher already set up...OR you WILL adhear to the SSD rules. But read trhrough SSD again..as shortridge pointed out...SSD pretty much is for natural areas or areas that are not already set up or established. Now, again, if you follow SSD , there is not a "pain to trhe public" exceptionary rule or "public inconveinence opt out". I gre up with a B GUn in my hand. Tore them aprt, repaired them, fixed them and could reassemle them blindfolded. Have been acknowledges as an exceptiopal marksman ( rifle only, suck at pistols) and told I should have beem a sniper in the military. But when it comes to BB Guns, you bet I will follow BSA guidlines..even if all my boys have years of experience. The bottom line is this: In the rare event something tragic does happen, are you gonna be able to look at anybody and say: "Well, we didn't want to be a bother and we did point out an imaginary line!" Of course, stuff can still happen, but at least you won't have to wonder if you didn't do enough. Also note that SSD does allow fine tuning based on the boys abilities...so if all are capable "SWIMMERS" and not begginers or non swimmers...then you could indeed forgo dividing into the 3 differet areas of Safety .

It's easy! All you have to do is remeber thi simple little explanation: Roses are red, Violets are blue. I'm schizophrenic, And so am I! Well, seriously, you know how it is> 20% do the work for the other 80%. Luckily, our pack finally had enough people step up this year so that we were able to fill each position ( pack, leadership, and committe) with an entirely different person instead of the usual when not enough people care to do anything.

Dang! Now trhat you say it, I totally see trhe sarcasm in it! My bad!

Novice, I can garantee you that there is no mention, inkling or even vague reference to ironing uniforms, uniform material or uniform care in training specific to my position! But again, the subject about creases wasn't even brought up by the original poster, only by a responder who COMPLETELY missed the point of the thread.It was just a question of wether you could iron supplex...which you can if you are careful!

Okay, I meant 5 ' line. For some reason I keep thinking of myself at 6'2" and that 5' would be at my shoulders. But I'm also taller than your average person too. No sir! It absolutely shows that the SSD IS NOT understood. If so, there would be no swimming at all. The two main , and most important qualities in SSD are : Qualified supervision and Discipline. Quality supervisoin does not allow the boys to maintain that they will watch their own imaginary line. Discipline dictates that you don't trust them to nor do you casually brush off the stringent rules of SSD.

And to continue with Deans line of thought...... What if the scout gets suspended from scholl for breaking the zero tolerance policy because he swallowed a little bit of mouthwash after getting out of the shower after gym class. Well, the kid gets busted for injesting alcohol at school which is illegal! What if the scout happens to be heading home from baseball practice,( In full uniform mind you) gets randomly stopped by a local cop who sees the baseball bat in the back - sticking out from underneath the seat - and busts the kid for carrying a concealed weapon? Maybe another scout uses his camera feature on his phone in the locker room to take a nd send a picture of his friend to that friends girlfriend. Since the picture taker wasn't paying attention...he doesn't notice that in the background, Johnny happens to be naked, Now that scout is arrested at school for a federal offense of ditributing child pornography. Think I'm pushing it a bit too far? HA HA HA! It's already happend and already been in the press years ago. Matter of fact, the incident with the baseball bat happened in my town 17 years ago. Thankfully, the cop lost his job after that stupid incident ( of many!). What it comes down to is intent...and that's hard to prove!

I almost agree with you. Matter of fact, I would havebeen inclined to agree with you as far as saying " Do not swim past the line created by this tree and that boulder. That is the 6' line" - Assuming you were talking to the beginner swimmers. BUT...and it's a very big BUT... SSD specifically points out that scouts do not particulary think about themselves, do noyt pay attention to their specifi wherabouts and do not have concerns about themselves. Basically stated..the scout will swear until his face is blue that he will follow the rule concerning the tree/boulder line - and he may have all intentions to and truely plan too. But then he'd have to stare non stop at the tree and boulder to do so. That scout wil cross that line without meaning to or realizing it. It's not a matter of trust or intent...it's a matter of real life and practicality. But if you had more than the 1 mature adult present as required by SSD - I suppose one of the adults could act as the barrier and stand at the 3 1/2 foot line and keep vigilant watch over the non swimmers. But then you'd have to have another adult stand at the 6' foot line for the begginners and at the 12' line which is even tougher than an adult standing at the 6 foot line. Say, how tall are the adults in your area? Anyways, it would be tough for even your most experiences scouts to completely watch where they were as far as borders and lines go. The youngers ones? Never will happen!

That's my deal: I am not concerned witrh pleats or creases. I do not try to crease my pants or sleeves. But I hate wrinkles. I iron my shirts to smooth them out. It's rare I do my pants, but on occasion I do.

As much as I am a proponent for common sense...I have to agree with shortridge in this case, Yeah, common sense may say that some rules are a bit too gacked on ideals, but this is not that case. I agree! Camp waterfront has _ more than likely) already been prepared and set up in a way to ensure it's safe. Kinda part of camp. To me, it is especially obvious that that SSD was designed specifically for private property and random swimming hole you encounter while rafting or hiking and end up near a river, pond, etc... Public swim areas may be the exception. Are we talking about a pool, a specific area of a lake or beach ( * ) maintained by a city or town parks and recs group? Probably falls under some stringent guidlines for maint if it is. And also, if you take a SSD class, it specifically uses the example of not falling victem to inconviencing other or figuring it's not worth the touble. Even uses a "boys will be boys" example too. You follow the rules of SSD or don't swim! ( * ) When I lived in Block Island , Rhode Island, we used to go to an area called "State Beach" . It was a 1/2 mile section of beach that wqas maintained and kept up by the state. Even had a net a ways out in the surf to control sharks or big ole meanie fish. The state actually went so far as to fill in drop off holes and to try and keep the bottom level. THis was back in 1977 so I have no idea if RH still does this.

The original thread isn't what I'm spinning off on, so much as SOME of the replies. And those replies make me question the overall attitude and thought process of some "well experienced" scouters and leaders. Ever notice that you or I might casually say something about advancement, uniforms, policy or maybe not even that, but mention casually that our own pack or troop may have a tradition of doing something - and you get at least a dozen replies about how somebody wants to see a link to actual written BSA policy about what you said. For example, a member of the forum asked about ironing a nylon supplex shirt. I joked about asking what an iron was...then said I have ironed supplex nylon, but at very low heat. Another member liked my joke, but then says ( I'm not quoting here okay?) that BSA does not require pleats or creases in uniforms. Okay, cool info, but the original poster never ever said or implies anything about pleats creases. So, just like that somebody tosse out a "Matter of fact statement" about something that was being discussed. Same thing when talking advancement, policies, BOR, EBOR's and Awrads. Yet in this spun article, there is info that only the original poster is privy too....YET so many posters acted like it was a God given fact printed on congressional record about this scout. One guys says he's a flaming in public Liberachi ( sp?) avowed scout...and most of the posters just accept it as fact. No questions, no proof or burden of truth needed! Somebody says it is truth, and at least half the posters not only accept it, but stand behind and condemn the scout as if they ( the responding posters) have known personally for years - the scout in question was gay! So, here is my question/ observation/ head scratching bewilderment: Why is it you need written /printed proof about a document, rule or policy ( which is subject to change at BSA's whim), yet will judge and smear a person's reputation without so much as proof, acknowledgemnt or confirmation - all in the blink of an eye? In a scout forum of all places?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

ABSOLUTELY! If one of my friends does, says, or likes something...it may show up on my wall wether I agre, like or even care. Don't assume that just because a friend has an opinion, that I'm 100% behind, suport or agree with it!

Interesting point John..... As I understand the rumor about training....So far, what I have heard is thst leaders will have to have their specific training in order to stay leaders...or be dropped as a leader during recharter. Yeah, as far as i know, it's just a rumor, but people who should know better or not, and have strong ties to my local council are not doing anythimng to dispell this rumor ( if it is one). Of course, I really don't have a problem with BSA mandating that leaders have YP and training to their specific levels that they work with kids through. The timing isn't so bad either. If your pack starts the new year ( for the most part) in Sept..then you have until Dec/ Jan to get the training you want before recharter drops you. 4 months is a long time.

PM Personal Messages? NO! Posting Material? OH yeah! Try posting and it is sooooo slow. About half the time, I get a "Timeout 409 - responce from server was too slow" or I get gateway 504 time out. If it does actually post, there is a 50/50 chance it will be a double or triple post! Edit something? HA HA HA...don't waste the time as the edit doesn't half the time. Started about Thursday night for me.

WEll, to be honest, I do not know if there are things my pack has done differently than yours or if it's some national rule or guideline my pack followed, but it was like this for me: To be an ADL, FIRST, the DL had to approve the need or accept the fact that I wanted to be his ADL.He was the first step. He had to see if the chemestry was gonna be there. Being that I was a very active parent, he almost did a backflip when I asked. AFTER that was agreed upon, I had to put in an adult leadership application. You know, the one that you sign off on saying you will abide by all the rules nad regs and try to follow the program as well as the spirit of the laws.....Yep, YP is in all of that. Then if BSA aproves my application, the committe, CO and CM/ ACM approve me to hold position of ADL.( could be I get approval, then submit application! ) Now, even though there may not be a certain, official laid out step for ADL placement...it would be sooooooo easy for any of the previous people to say ( especially the CM) "WE have to make sure the best person is doing the best they can to serve the pack and keep the welfare of the pack and scouts at the front of their duties!" Yes, this would mean taking YP as well as a slew of other classes that can be taken online too. Then, if time permits, have him take Leader Specific before it is online only too. ( I mean, on line is...ok, but in person with a live instructor is just better!) If the young man doesn't want to take the classes, tell him that it shows that he really isn't serious about the position, nor does he place the welfare of the kids and pack at the front of his duties to the pack...therefore, you'll have to pass him over in favor of another person who does care. Not saying you have to be mean or nasty about it..reword it your own way.....but the point is the same. Good Luck! I used to be a very hard headed 20 year oild myself. Actually, I'm stil hardheaded, just alot nicer about it! And I do try toi see other's point of view!

IN this kids defense...as well as many others...I had a friend - super conservative type... make all kinds of apologies because HER account was hacked and apparently her account sent out some borderline almost pornographic videos of women in "barely bathing suits" to all her friemndds as well as adding quite a few new friends. All publicly too. Not saying that was what happened in this particular case, but something to think about in other cases. As long as I create an account, I can claim to be the CM of my pack - as long as I know my CM won't see my account OR if my CM doesn't even have a computer or facebook account. Why would somebody do that? Dont know. Don;'t know why people spray paint water towers or vandalize cars either. Just because they can I guess.

"I'm only Facebook friends with - gasp! - actual friends." I stand guilty of that too!

Triple post! Site acting funny too. Feeling like it might lock up or crash the weekend! : (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Well...naturally, AFTER my last post was posted, I thought of a different way to say it. Go figure! Policy's and procedures are pretty much organazational laws. Bylaws are the police who enforce/ maintain and make sure members follow the laws ( policy and procedures). Bylaws do not run trhe pack or troop, but rather, enforce the policies and rules that the pack/ troop is run by. Incidentally, I have never seen a bylaw that actually pertained to a scout... so far, they were always created because of adults and parents! Again....go figure!

A bylaw, by-law, or byelaws ( take your pick) is not a single definition word. It has different meanings for different applications. Now, if as you state : " ....is because BSA documents ALREADY do this for units. " Well then...What is the purpose of about 1/8 th of the posts in here? Why are so many posts and threads argues even when it concerns BOLD print policy? Why the arguements with soooo many different answers from so many "expert" scouts? Nobody needs by-laws to cover or set the standard for rank advancement - especially a pack. But then again, the original poster did NOT say it was for rank advancement, beltloops or even LNT awards . The poster asked for examples of by-laws. And just like I said, even my pack has some based on the needs as occurances happen. Wether it be a DL who thinks EVERY den expense is justified for reembursement or to who can sign checks and what to do if that checks and balance cannot be followed in case of an emergency situation. Who gets keys to a certain building and whatnot. Mostly, by laws are a set of laws to set inplace the procedure THAT MUST BE FOLLOWED and gives that procedure a authoritive stand. BSA does not cover stuff like that. Look at the swimming. BSA has clear procedures for swimming. De3fined areas clearly marked of by catagory of non swimmer, beginner and swimmer...yet the discussion already degraded to bothering the others people who use the swimming hole. So ....there went that policy and procedure right there in a matter of minutes. Bylaws are what give a policy bite. By-laws are what give the policy authority if it isn't followed, Byelaws are needed just by the fact of every post in here when somebody asks: "WHat can we do about...." And the answer usually has a "Well, you can hope or try..." answer. Without by-laws, you can hope all day long. With by-laws, you have firm grounds to stand on and either cause to correct the action in question...or remove the person participating or causing the action! Ideally, the idea of HAVING TO HAVE by-laws sucks...but so does the idea of having to have laws about murder and robbing banks. Shouldn't need them... but not everybody follows the rules like you and I do, do they?

One more thing: If any of you are familiar with facebook or if you are actual users: You know how aggrivating it is that it seems like every freaking week - Facebook keeps changing how they do things: Security, privacy, and connections to the rest of the net. One day your private stuff is private, the next day... it may be the newest rage in blogs sites. Also( from personal experience) I might read where a friend has commented on a particular post, click that I like MY FRIENDS comments.... and the next thing I know...My own page lists me as a fan of the page my friend commented on...all without me actually ever going to that page. So now I am a fan of something I never saw. I sure hope it doesn't happen to be the "gay communist gun club for cavemen who detest GIECO and plan revenge! " page.

WOW! This can be sooo such a touchy subject: I have a facebook page. I don't care who sees it either. But I will give a word of caution: I type things just like I say them. The problem is this: You cannot hear wether I am irritated, joking, amused, sarcasticly good natured or sarcastically mean natured. You cannot hear my tone of voice or how I stress certain sylables. I have friends who do things that I by no means condone...yet, I can still laugh and joke with them. I may not support a particular page, but comment on a particular Item on that page I may find funny. My only advice when dealing with facebook or Myspace is this: Take everything and all of it with a grain of salt. The way you take things and understand them may be more of a reflection of you than the person who's page you are reading!