Scoutfish

We use pack master...when it's working and not locked up, locked out, locked away, or just screwing up. Usualy 7 days out of the month!

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Talking to the leader of last years Webelos ( second year) Den....It seems like the boys in that den had a better time, more fun, and "seemed" to get more out of the program by doing den trips to places like a private lake and spend the weekend fishing, cooking, and such. Now, I am not in anyway discouraging an official BSA camp or such, but the leader is question said "his" boys acted like they had more fun, learned more, worked together better and became a stronger unit when camping as just a den as compared to when they went to council or district camps. Again, I am not saying that ther did bad at those District or council camps...just that the den ones went better. My point is this: It's better to go on a $15 weekend den campout on Old Man Furney's farm with the big pond than to not going to council/district camp or anything at all - because you can't afford it.

We get low rumbling thunder every day in the summer. You never see the lightning. Technically, they are one in the same, but we also get heat lightning..which is still lightning, but without any storms. The heat lightning usually occurs over the ocean around here. Just saying from locale ( yeas, I meant locale, not local) experience....If just hearing thunder stops your program, then BSA might as well shut down from mid June to the beginning of Oct in NC.

Enginer..Would that be TroopMaster by any chance? We are a pack, so my answer might be different for 2 reasons: 1) We are a pack, 2) Most of our den leaders, Committeee members, CM and ACM have boys in the program... So I'd be really surprised as to why any of the committee wouldn't know what was going on calendar wise. At the very least, since the program is in fact for the scouts..It seems the committee is obligate to find out what the school calendars are ( assuming that) the committee didn't have any kids in the program

Beardad, The thunder itself is no big deal.......It's thunders compant that CAN BE an issue. Thunder ( in a nutshell) is pretty much turbulence and friction between cold air and warm air. But you know that right? Again, no big deal, but that turbulence can create all kinds of nasty winds, wind gusts, hail, lightning, etc.. Thunder is actually great at putting alot of people into a deeper sleep ( me included) , but the "company" that thunder keeps is the trouble. Not sure about some of the other East Coast states...but in NC in July and August - we have an afternoon thunderstorm EVERY SINGLE DAY. Usually between 4:30 pm and 7:00 pm. Right when the air starts cooling down, yet the heat starts bleeding up out of the earth. Get's pretty nasty real quick sometimes: Skies darken as quick as that, wind picks up, tornado warnings for a 7 county area, wind gusts and sometimes even hail. Then it rains for maybe... 20 minutes or so...then it's all over. The sky lightens up for an hour until it gets dark due to night time. That's the "norm" here in the NC,SC, Ga area.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I AGREE! Yeah, sure there are parents who will complin about a $1.99 beltloop while simultaneously planning on spending $500 on a new phone because it doesn't have 3G or whatever. But there are also parents who are upset about the possibility of having to cut out scouting (among other programs) because dad just lost his $65,000.00 a year job and they can't afford the stuff they already bought( housem car, land) on credit when they had that job. When your scared you are going to lose your house and car, and suddenly you can't afford your existing health insurance and dental....scouting seems pretty irrelavant. So again...A scout doesn't have to participat in every sigle activity to be a scout. ACTIVITIES ARE WHAT YOU DO.....A SCOUT IS WHAT YOU ARE!

YES SIR! You are right. And I do! I never said I didn't. I said : "My son does not have to go to every single campout, field trip or event , earn every single beltloop much less any new ones either....to be a real cub scout. I figure just doing the normal stuff is still 100 times better than not being a scout at all." Meaning he doesn't have to participate in every single belt loop event or oppertunity there is if having to buy him a belt loop is a problem. He does not have to go to every sigle campout or $$$$ field trip that is offered. While going on a trip to Patriots Point ( Charleston, SC) to sleep on an aircraft carrier is awesome...he will not be less of a scout if he doesn't go because I cannot afford to spend that money at that time (in December). Basically, a beltloop is cool and so are all the planned trips - but in itself, the belploop or trip is not scouting..just a small part of what makes up scouting. A far as me.. I attend all the leader meetings, all the committee meetings, all the pack and den meetings even when other dens, leaders or parents do not. I attend even when my son does not. Matter of fact, I had to explain to my son why I could not stand there beside him during the entire duration of any pack or den meeting and why I also work with the other boys too. I had to explain to him that I could not hang out with him nonstop 24/7 during the pack campout because at some point as a leader.....I had to do leader stuff too. My son is just now starting to understand why we end up being at the CO a 1/2 hour early and usually stay 30 to 45 minutes later than "Everybody else and their parents are leaving" when we have pack and den meetings.

At our PACK committee meetings, we have an open door policy. You can come, watch, listen, take notes, eat a burger if you want. It's fine with us. We have nothing to hide. BUT, that doesn't necessarily give you right to take over, steer the meeting or even interject uninvited. This is our meeting( the ones who step up) . We have no problem with getting input from parents,or asking their thoughts..but it is a COMMITTEE member meeting . You want to talk as much as us and have equal input and vote on stuff...join the committee!

I have a different take on this: While I don't mind some rain or occasional gust.. I don't want to camp in a monsoon or hurricane. I totally concur with night rain over day rain. A good rain fly will be worth it's weight in gold! Now here's where I am different: While I don't mind normal weather... I don't want to be stuck camping with a bunch of whiners complaining all day about how the camping was ruined because of the rain. I do not like to hear for ( the 50th time?) about how "I have to dry this or blah blah blah......" Kinda like somebody asking you: 'Hot enough for you?" for the 100th time during the course of the day. Rain...I'm cool with that. The other people who are whining and complaining? Nah...Don't want any of that at all!

Yeah, I could see National maybe taking a minute and after reflection on the current national economic situation- maybe holding back on changing neckers, creating new belt loops or creating anything that would cause more money to be spent. Right now, alot of the normal everyday expenses are pushing it, so more might just be the nail in the coffin for some families! But then again, I see the other side of it too: My son does not have to go to every single campout, field trip or event , earn every single beltloop much less any new ones either....to be a real cub scout. I figure just doing the normal stuff is still 100 times better than not being a scout at all. Bling bling? Yeah....It sure is! But that fascination for bling bling eventually turns into what they did to earn it instead of just having IT to look at. Right now, given the choice, my son prefers the activity that he earned the loop for over the loop itself. That's pretty cool. Great post!

You did fine! You had dad's permission. That trumps any reasonable suspicion of a YP violation policy. Dad specifically granted you the right to take Jr in your vehicle, gave you permission to be with Jr for the duration to get to the meeting and made arrangements to pick Jr up afterward. Now, wether you call this temporay custody, verbal contract, or temporary guardian is beyond me.....but you only acted with permission and full knowledge of the parent.

While I canot break our budget down into micro numbers or exact cost per scout per activity..I do know it costs us around $125 a year per scoutfor things like advancement abs awards, pins, beltloops etc. At the end of the year, our pack will buy neckers and books for all cubs who are active and advance to the next rank. That's around $25 per scout..give or take. We go camping as a pack twice a year at a church retreat campground that does not belong to our CO. That' costs too. We have a pack trailer that holds all our camping kitchen stuff ( gas bottles, tables, chairs, dining fly , etc..) Well, we have inspection fees and registration too. Our pack pays for registered leader insurance and recharter too. We buys books, videos and other materials for training . We have to pay for paper, ink, toner, staples paper clipcs, etc... for memos, flyers and parent notices. We have to pay a ( I think) quarterly fee for pack master ( any body else have constant issues with pm?) , we have the e-mail tree srevice to pay for too. On it's own, each one seems minor, but at the end of the season add it and look at all the kids who got awards or such. As a pack, we also have a policy that no child will do without due to economic reasons. No, we don't just grab up every kid in the neighborhood and treat them for free, but we do help out a few who actually inquire about it. Point being: My pack could tear through that $9,000.00 pretty fast by the end of the year .

Can't say what we spend on awards only as it differs from den to den. year per year. But based on last years numbers, we averaged around $125.00 per Cub scout for everything. This includes pins, belt loops, ranks badges, arrow points, compass points, neckers, supplies, and books.

I'm gonna go with the engineer guy! See, if I stop and put myself into the situation in a more personal way..such as using me for Engineer and my son in place of his... I end up siding with him. Granted, I totally think the teacher blew it as far as the time fram and I also think weekends are taboo for schoolwork as ths is when kids need to be able to relax, recharge and refresh. But as much as I love scouting and love that my son is a Cub Scout...He has other MORE IMPORTANT considerations first: Our den meetings are Mondays at 6 pm. They last an hour. The CO is about 20 mins from my house. 20 mins to get there, 1 to 1 1/2 hours for the meeting depending on how much we flap our lips after the meeting, and another 20 mins to get home. I love it, he loves it and so far, he's good at it. BUT..... If his grades start falling or it interfears with his regular schoolwork, homework, or sleeping ( you know how kids are) then the choice is obvious.

Our big fundraiser is a B-B-Q chicken dinner in the spring and again in the fall. We do this at two locations simultaneously. We fill out a roster with the times ( in 2 hr increments) that the dens need to participate. They sign up with their choice of which location to work at ( first come , first serve). THis fundraiser( both spring and fall) makes up about 90% of the pack budget for the year and pays for things like books and neckers , beltloops, supplies, etc. This includes paper supplies, mailers, e mail service, packmaster, etc... The col ting is this: The boys participate. They earn the money by working for it. Sure, they might forget what it involves a week or two later, but at least for a short time, they get an understanding of how it works.

My thing is this: If they are really strapped for cash, and can't afford the medical check up/ DR visit/ physical....tell them to eat peanut butter and water for a few days on that trip! (The trip that ain't free at all!) I mean, how about some sort of way of letting the EMS or rescue squad know not to inject you with "X" medicine or at the very least...give them a "medical heads up" to any potential issues you may have. As far as strapped for cash...the form is good all year.... while all that money they spent on the trip is gone once the weekend is over. If you can't afford a 20 minute physical...you probably can't afford to go on the trip either. Or buy that beer! Tell them rules are rules..not choiceds depnding on popular vote..(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

We doubld in size at the beginning of the year to around 120 scouts total...but we didn't worry as we knew some would drop out. Kinda normal too. Competitions from other activities..some like the roundup, but actually scouting does not appeal to them..sports..Mom and dad can't/ wont commit to taking scouts to meetings ,mom and da who can't understand things cost money, and then you have those who are disillusioned about scouting being a "babysitting and hand out awards just especialy for their precious sweetums" service! So our 120 simmered down to around 75 - 80 scouts. WOW! 200 scouts? I bet collecting dues/ crediting passbook accounts/ planning events is a nightmare and a full time job?

Well it's a god thing the country woke up about 40 years ago! It sure would suck that you had to close your buisness down that one day..especially if that day wasn't even a part of your faith..if you had one. Then in the bigger picture: What if there was a law that said you had to stay open regardless of your faith? Not any better huh? Yeah, I know what you meant, but the cool thing is that you don't HAVE to be open on the day that you observe YOUR sabbath. Or if you don't observe...you can stay open as long as you want! But requiring stores/ buisnesses to close is definantly respecting one religion over others. Back to your original question: "Why do people seem so opposed to holding training in ways that do not include Sunday?" Well, In my case..It's because I work Monday through Friday and sometimes Saturday too. Most people work the same days...not all, but most. Granted, I can take the occasional day off from work for Dr appointments, errands or trips, and scouting trips, functions or trainings, but then I am down one day of pay. And you can only squeeze in so many constructive hours per week night. As lomg as there are trainings benifiting both LDS and non LDS schedules...I see no issue.

That's the only story I am talking about. I said: ***** WRONG! IF.. that is a big IF ..the dad became a DL, then the CO, COR, the CC and the pack OWE the rest of the parents the truth and nothing less. If he's just an active dad. well...he's treated just as/ no more dangerous than anybody else! **** If he's just an active parents..treat him like any parent. Me? Yep, smoked some weed when I was younger, drank some beer underage and once I drove 6 miles on pavement with my truck locked into 4 wheel drive because the girl beside me ( Now my wife ) was too pretty to not look at! Oh...I did think some butt ugly clothes were cool at the time!

Now having said that...wouldn't it be great if every pack had this problem: Too many volunteers? Too many people wanting to help out and be in a position of taking some burden? Right now, I am in this same situation..sorta: I am an ADL of a bear den that just crossed to Webelos . We have 22 boys regularly and occasionally 24 or 25. We split up into at least 2 and sometimes 3 groups just to get anything done. I mentioned to the DL that I would like to step up next year as a DL for Webelos also. I have taken Webelos specific training, BALOO, YP, Leader Essentials. Weather, etc.... and the whole list of standard training too. The DL is upset and feels betrayed somewhat. At the same time, he admits that the den does need to split, but wants it to stay as one because it's been that way since Tigers ( although it was only a handfull back then.) The difference is that the CC, COR and CM all agree that there should be at least 2 if not 3 Webelos dens. Most of the leadership feels this way. Again, the problem is : Too many volunteers? Too many people wanting to help out? Scary huh?

"* Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed." Yeah, good call! So maybe as a position, neither CM or CC has more authority, but in the terms of general duties, It sounds like the CC has the right, ability, and the authority to create new dens. Now, if the CC was to perform his/her duty as outlined by BSA, then it sounds like a new den could/ CAN BE be created and the CM has the responsibility to see that it gets a qualified leader . The CM has an obligation as a "experienced and knows better" leader to step back and look at himself just a bit. It sounds like he's just a bit too personally involved to the point it's become detrimental to how he conducts things.

Scoutnut, Dude! I am wondering if we are on the same post here? Who ever once said anything about kicking the guy out? Who dragged his wife into it? Who once said anything about kicking him, his wife or son out? Is that what you got out of people honestly questioning how comfortable they would feel about a man who freely admitted to his PUBLIC and LEGALLY DOCUMENTED case of losing control over his emotions-and assaulting somebody - working in the den? Me personally...I NEVER once said anybody should be kicked out. NEVER! But I did say that that particular pack should tread very, very carefully with this situation as to how the parents of the scouts in this pack might feel or react if they ever did find out. Given the choices, I'd rather tell the parents with an OPEN, HONEST, AND TRUTHFUL conversation than to HIDE, BE SECRETIVE, or DECEITFUL with information that you yourself would want to know. Now before you keep judging us on our "unscrupulous " mindset.....first look at yours: You exagerated big time with the wife and son - who only YOU mentioned, and you condone the pack, the leadership, the COR, CO, and CC being secretive about a person who has a legal record of ASSAULTING someone else. DUDE! How can you question our intents or values here? WRONG! IF.. that is a big IF ..the dad became a DL, then the CO, COR, the CC and the pack OWE the rest of the parents the truth and nothing less. If he's just an active dad. well...he's treated just as/ no more dangerous than anybody else! The very first thing I said was that chances were good that the guy probably defended himself and the ex turned it around. But I could be wrong. I could be right. But I would not chance a single scout's safety with it. Apparently you would! AS for the guy..If he truely is innocent, it really does suck for him. But you have to remember, people have been shown videos of themselves commiting crimes and still swear they didn't do anythuing. People tend to lie sabout their guilt. The biggest thing to remember is that the whole of the pack is much, much more important than the well being of one. Do not risk the health and safety of the pack over just one man's reputation that is already legally tainted.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

If you figure it out, then you can explain to me why they sell hots dogs in packs of 10, brats in packs of 5 and buns in packs of 8!

While I cannot attest to it's accuracy, I have been told by many patronizing member of the public that a sign or banner "that looks like the kids made it is more appealing than professional lettering". During one of our chicken dinner fund raisers, I painted a few 3X8 signs to display along area roadways. Two of them were nice and neat because I really tok my time with them. I planned the spacing, leter size and even painted the Cub Scout logo as well as our CO's scouting ministry logo. People said it was nice. But one sign was made at the last minute. Hand painted letters with the wrong type and size paintbrush. It looked like the scouts painted it. Letters of different sizes, spacing was off and the last word was crammed in there on a few lines. The public loved it! Something to consider.

And one that keeps rearing it's ugly head and is sooooo hard to kill: "If the US flag touches the ground, you HAVE to burn it!" NOOOOOOOOO! If a US flag that is on display or is being carried touches the ground or is dropped, you just adjust it or pick it up immediatley. http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm#q09 I mean, we hate to drop it, but stuff hapens sometimes.