Scoutfish

Speaking of law...let's really stir it up. About 15 years ago in NC a few various laws were passed to take effect the following Jan 1st. On Jan 2nd, most newspapers printed an article that basically stated that a law concerning fishing, was slipped into a bill that had absolutely nothing to do with fishing. When the bill was passed and ratified into law, so was the item. The item? A proposal to make gigging flounder illegal. Who noticed it or reported it to the right people is beyond me, but it made the papers and tv news. The state representative who handles or oversaw that kind of stuff( Marc Basinight of NC) was on the news saying that : The NC Marine Fisheries Dept as aell as the NC Wildlife Commision would not enforce that law under authority of the NC house and senate. So what is my point? Well, on the books was a law that was voted on and pased and written in the books, but had no validity or worth. Had you needed to research it, it would be written down plain as day..right in front of your face - but was not in fact a law. So If you and I argued that law on Jan first....who would be right? So agin, what is might point? My point is>..Even if you KNOW the law, you might not know it! Eamon, In NC, we have the Good Samaritan law. As long as you, in good faith are trying to help somebody in ditress or danger, you are protected from lawsuits or charges of neglect.. If a person wrecks their car, flips it and it catches on fire, and you pull that unconscious person out, but turns out they had a neck injury which was worsened by your help...they cannot sue you. You were trying to save their life.

I totally and completely understand "that these are the beliefs of their church". But that does not mean that those beliefs supercede or take presidence over mine. Those beliefs do not outweigh or over-rule mine. Or that mom's either.

EXACTLY! That's what she asked if she should do, but got lambasted by others saying it was her son's choice, not hers. Even though that son is HER son, and not yet a leagal adult. Nobody eber said that she wanted, thought about, should or ought to bash the church. I..meaning me... said if..IF.. not that she does...( get that?) IF she felt the Co's policy was a load of crap, then she was very well in her rights as the mom to have her soon join another troop.

No, what I said was : "This is not about BSA policy so much as SHOWING a CO that their policy is a load of crap and that as a parent (who's duty is to raise her son and give guidence as well as mentor as she see's fit until he's 18) she will not put up with or allow it!" I did not ever say "I think the Co's policy is a load of crap!" I said IF - IF a mom thinks that, she has absolute right to yank her son out as a parent, because a parent has the absolute final authority over ANYTHING to do with their kid. Now had you been following the whole thread, you would have seen from the very start that I stood behind nwasness's parental rights over "boy deciseon" regarding the Co's policy towards women. I never once took a stand against the CO myself. Now somehow, you are avoiding my statement of( and you can quote this one too if you want): "Yep! That is my belief. But I do not expect you to follow it. I do not hold it against you to follow them or even agree to them. I respect and stand up for your right to disagree with and not follow them! If you don't agree - I'm totally cool with it. See, I have personal beliefs too. Why are mine any less worthy? Especially since my beliefs support eqaulity and not division between the sexes?" Now, I do not have a clue what faith or denomination the Co originally mentioned is. If it was listed, I didn't pay attention. You brought up the Pentecostal Church, not me. Now as for insulting and disrespect, guess what? Again..YOU, not me, but YOU...threw out the first insult by saying: " Scoutfish, The ignorance shown in your post is astonishing." So I'm ignorrant because I do not follw "THAT" church's views? Well,I hate to point it out, but your ignorance is awesome! All I did was stand up for a mother's right to steer her son's moral direction and as a parent guide her sons attutude. You somehow take this as a personal attck on a church.I didn't bring them up, you did. Well sorry, If having a view other than the Pentecostal Church's view is an insult to them...they will just have to be insulted! I can't help it if they MIGHT be so insecure as to think individual thought is an attack on them. But I won't aplogize either. The choice to be insuted is yours or theirs, but I did not choose to insult anybody...rather, I stood up for an individual who has been admonished for only wanting to do what we all know we have the RIGHT to do: Guide our children into adulthood. If doing that is insulting to you...well...that's just tough! Again, let me point out: This isn't about any one church or it's views. It isn't about my personal beliefs or yours. It is absolutely NOTHING - NOTHING AT ALL to do with BSA policy. IT IS ABOUT: A parents authority trumping that of a CO when it comes to the morals and veiws instilled on a youth. What is so hard to understand about that?

Double post for some reason!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

You tell me! All Isaid is that the mom's authority supercedes, overpowers and trumps that of the CO. If you tell me I am wrong, then you are saying that if your CO suddenly instituted a policy against your own personal beliefs...then you will just follow along and not do anything? Are you saying that you will follow along with something that goes against your own core values and beliefs out of respect to the CO's? I doubt it!

Apparently not. Seems like a few think the choice is totally up to the boy and the mom should just step back and say nothing. Brent: Look, I'm not saying the Co should be shut down, disbanded or loose their BSA charter. All I am saying is that the mom has the right as well as overpowering authority to supercede all decisions that are made by her "not yet legal age " son when it comes to moralistic beliefs. The Co sustains a belife or viewpoint contradictory to what the mom holds as a parent. As parents...we all have the right to step in and take over.....our authority trumps the CO's in this regard. Wether about women, God, family duty or whatever else. The fact that the Co is associated with scouting is a distraction and in reality, not the issue here. Obviously, with all the training the mom has and experience too, she had no qualms with BSA or it's policies. By taking her son out of this CO and finding another, she proves she is cool with and supportive of Scouting and BSA. This is not a mom vs BSA issue.! This is a mom not bending over to a CO's morals and beliefs just so her son can be something that he can also be elsewhere!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

>> What better way to say you totally believe it , than to stick with and support the group who imposes such rules?

WOO HOO .......CONGRATULATIONS! LOL! I'd print and frame that E-mail. Then when you happen to be having one of those days where you wonder in you are doing the right thing...Look at that e-mail and realize that some people take personal offense even if it's not warranted. Sometimes, no mater what, people think it's your fault! At the end of last winter/ start of this spring, I was asked by the CM to hand out prizes and recognize high achieving popcorn sellers . It was a last minute thing because the CM suddenly had work obligations pop up. 5 mins before the pack meeting, a mom asked me if I was in charge of popcorn. I told her :"NO, I'm just filling in to give the boys recognition and hand out prizes...other than that, I have nothing to do with popcorn." She then asked if her son was getting a prize since he sold over $500.00 worth of popcorn.....but hadn't turn in the money yet...even though it was due almost 2 months ago.. I said "He's not on my list. I'm no expert, but I believe he probably should have turned in the money first and turned it in almost 2 months ago when it was due." This mom cussed me out, and stomped off cussing under her breath about me,the pack, the CM and ACM too. Ever since we asked her where the money is ( we stil haven't recieved) she and her son haven't been back. Apparently...It's all MY fault!

nmoosetracker, Twocubdad was actually supporting you when he made this statement: That is to say - There are certain times when family matters are more important and override the philosphy of scouting. And I completely agree with that too. To everybody saying it's a boy decision thing: Ha Ha Ha - I don't hardly think so! This isn't about scouting in this particular situation. This is about a CO imposing a certain belief over parental belief...and hiding behind a BSA troop while doing it. By saying that women cannot be around or serve in a postion of leadership , the Co has ALSO taken any boy led, boy decided involvement away. But on top of that, the CO is saying "Women are useless and inferior!" Any mom who did not have an issue with that policy would in fact be proving that policy true and correct by not speaking out about it. Telling her son that he needs to go to another troop is well within her parental rights and should be reasonably expected. It is the same parental right to say my son cannot join or stay at a troop who's CO promotes racism, bigotry or as in this case, sexism. This is not about BSA policy so much as SHOWING a CO that their policy is a load of crap and that as a parent (who's duty is to raise her son and give guidence as well as mentor as she see's fit until he's 18) she will not put up with or allow it! As a DAD, I will not allow my son to be part of a group that tolerates - much less promotes - sexism, racism, bigotry or predjudice. I don't care what noble program that club pretends to be a part of.... It's actions are what count. And the day I let my son join a group like that, I am essentially supporting the values and beliefs of that group. Suppose the CO decides that stealing anything less than $2,000.00 is not a crime. Are you gonna overlook that just because they follow other ideals of scouting? What if the leadership at the CO decides that having a few shots of Jack and Coke isn't really that big of a deal...AND the boys will be real men if they have a shot also? Why not go ahead and say a child molester is okay if that molester doesn't molest boys? If he only molests girls...well, no problem in a boys only club right? What if a Baptist CO advocates blowing up Muslim churches ( or whatever they are called...synogues? )? Same difference! Wrong is wrong! Doesn't matter if the CO hides behind a BSA club. Point is...as a parent, we all have overriding power over a CO's beliefs. We have overriding authority when it comes to our kids. As parents, it is not a choice, but an obligation! The only thing I see here is that it's just not a policy that happens to be against one of your more absolute values. Any parent who says their son has absolute final say OVER what they think as a parent is full of it!

At first glance, I completely agreed with this statement: And I stil subscribe to this particular statement: "take the "I" out of the question!" But, I cannot argue with: While my views, your views, the neighbor's views or anybody else's views are the same doesn't matter here. The point is, the CO has a viewpoint or belief that goes against what the mom's ( read parent) views are. Doesn't matter if it's scouting, 4H , academic derby, sports team, or whatever. If the mom leaves her son in that troop, she is essentially telling her son that those particular views are ok, and is practically proving them correct ( in this particular case) by not saying or doing something about it. Again, it's not about wether I follow those views or if you do. And it doesn't even matter what the views are. All that matters in this particular case is that those views and beliefs are completely against the mom's. And she is the mom. NEVER EVER belittle that! As a dad, I love that my son is in cub scouts and already thinking about being a boy scout when the time comes. But if the troop is contrary to my , my wife's or our "family" beliefs..He'll be looking for another troop pronto! Besides, this isn't about mom vs scouting...this is about a CO imposing it's beliefs on boys THROUGH the scouting program. If you follow those views...great! If not, do not settle!

Here are my thoughts on this: 1) How did you know what popcorn to order and hopw much it will cost? I assume you had a list from him. By any chance did this list have the names of the people who were PLANNING on getting the popcorn they PAID for? ( Caps for emphasis). 2) If you have the names/ addresses of the original customers who paid for popcorn... GIVE THE POPCORN TO THEM!!!!! They paid for it. Sure, the pack didn't get if because of the middleman, but why screw the original customers who kept their end of the agreement? As of right now, the pack is at a loss for the popcorn. Giving it as gifts or prizes will not make up the money. But giving itto the original buyers will save the oack face and maintain it's credibility BIG TIME . The original customers are about to be screwed too. If you don't give them the popcorn, just think of all future sales gone down the drain. Then remember that bad news travels twice as fast as good news. The last thing your pack needs is a reputation as one that doesn't honor it's obligation to the public.. No - it doesn't matter what really happened...all that matters is what the public thinks happened!

Here's another way to possibly see how the rank of Eagle has been degraded and lost some of it's luster over time: Some parents...not all mind you....See Eagle rank as the sum total and SOLE point of scouting. "You will not be allowed to get your license if you do not get Eagle!" "My son was a Boy Scout, but it was a waste since he didn't get his Eagle Rank." "Now that you got your Eagle, time to think about getting out and getting a job." "You better get your Eagle by 15 instead of the "Jones'" son who got his at 16." So as I said, some...not all parents...have treeated Eagle as a check point or tick mark instead of what it means to actually earn your Eagle. And in the process, they have reduced it's worth...at least in the eyes of their kids and anybody else who might suscribe to the notion that Eagle is just another thing to check off on when building a resume. But in a different light, If National suddenly did away with the Eagle rank, then in essence, Life Scout would be the new Eagle Scout, only the name would be different.

My $.02 worth: If there isn't a fire used for dutch oven, smores, or at the very least - some kind of scouts reverence ceremony..then it's not a campout. I can set the tent up in my back yard, but that's still not camping out! Rocking with a flute? JETHRO TULL! Aqualung and Locomotivebreath,

Epilletts, shoulder loops, shoulder pads, etc... all the same to me! Basically, I just bought new red and white numbers today so I would match the boys I work with and the other adult leaders who had their shirts before the centenial came out.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

When I took BALOO in Feb, I wanted to make sure I was going to put in the right spot as a temporay patch. I was sure that my right pocket was the right spot, but decided that I might ought to ask a few other leaders where it should go....you know, to confirm it. Holy Moley! NOw, I am not by any means a member of the UP, but some had their council patches on their right sleeve, the United States flag on or over their right pocket, Adult Leader Position patch on their left pocket and one guy had the flag and pack numbers on both sleeves. Well, at least he was symetrical ! LOL! Yep! I waited til I got home and asked on here!

Gosh Eagle92...... I kinda get the feeling you might possibly, maybe sorta be upset? LOL! Okay, I have a hard time beleiving that National can get something wrong! The Tiger Cub with the Bobcat, Tiger, Wolf and Bear rank badges even specifically said National doesn't make mistakes! So tan and green is okay? Well, I'm gonna switch to red and white. Maybe it's no big deal, but I want it to be right - even if for my own satisfaction. Kinda sets a great example for the kids too. Can't realluy say much about their shirts not tucked in if I'm the odball with the wrong color patches can I? Anyway, I appreciate the info...Thanks! Mark

First off let me say that I do not mean to imply, convey, or show any negativity to the spun post comment about the proper den numerals or trained strip color. I was specifically looking for a source for this info and other than the comment in my post, I cannot find it anywhere. Now , let me explain: I install garage doors. I have 15 years of experience and I am factory trained and certified in garage door. Without implying any bragging, I am the best at my company. Seriously, It's what I do and somehow, I just happen to be the best. But as far as you know, I could be a 14 year old girl who never actually saw a garage door ever in my life. So my point is, even with my 15 years experience, I would not be upset or offended if you believed the guy who has been selling garage doors at Home Depot for 3 weeks now over anything I say. Why? Because you do know for a fact that he works at Home Depot, AND he works in the garage door dept. Me? Well, all you have is my word. Could be I might have "kinda" helped a friend once put an opener on his door. So anyways, just to satisfy my need to be sure, I tried to look up ( through our councils website and through scouting.org) any listing or color requiremenst for Cub Scout leader patch color requirements . So far I found zilch, nada, nil, zip! All I can find is the standard uniform inspection sheet that shows placement. The only color listing is the shirt color, pants, socks and epillettes. Nothing about den or trained color. When I bought my shirt last year, the woman at the scout shop said tht since it is a centenial shirt, it was green and tan numbers and trained strip. I told her I was a Cub Leader, not Boy Scout. She said same thing. I have the new centenial **** y with blue epilletts, cub leader patch( soon to be Webelos leader) G & T numbers and G&T trained patch. My son will be getting his tan shirt in a few weeks anf I want to make sure zi get the right colors for him AND make sure I correct my colors if need be. So. Can anybody point me to a source? Thanks, Mark

Absolutely! The act of snatching my hat away from me will not suddenly make me respectful if I was not so previously. And by snatching my hat, their disrespect kinda negates the respect they are trying to imply. I see the hat snatching the same as the idiot behind me who blows his horn the very second the light turns green: Just because I did not stomp the gas when the jerk behind thought I should....he assumed I wasn't paying attention. In reality, I may have been about to hit the acelorator 2 seconds after he blew the horn. So far, the only thing that has happened is that the guy behind me acted like an arrogant impatient jerk! So, maybe I will take my hat off as I sit down after standing in line and not holding my hat in the same hands that wil carry my drink and food tray...you know...where I greatly increase the chances of spilling my food or drink on my hat. Maybe I wasn't going to eat in the hall. Maybe I was just looking/searching/checking out something.

Oh yeah, I know. Just saying you could ask. But like I said, if they don't...I wouldn't make a federal case of it. In the long run, the only person who MIGHT be losing out is the scout who didn't actually experience the experience. But that would be mom or dad's fault, not the Cub Leader's.

I agree with Lisabob: The requirements for beltloops are practically slightly higher than breathing while thinking about the activity in question. Take fishing for example: 1.Review your local fishing regulations with your leader or adult partner. Explain why they are important, and commit to following them. 2.Demonstrate how to properly bait a hook. 3.Spend at least 30 minutes trying to catch a fish You can cover basic rules as they apply to your particular activity in less than 5 minutes. The kid can larn to bait a hok in 1 minute. 30 minutes of "TRYING" to catch a fish is next to nothing! The way I look at it, a belt loop is not so much an award or trophy of a grand and outstanding achievement...rather,, it is a memento of having participated in an experience. As far as experiences go...the level and enjoyment varies depending on the particular scout. Some activities...my son only participated because of the chance to get a beltloop. Others, well, he did it because everybody else did. Then there are some that he is rippin and rarin to go! He could care less if he got a beltloop or not, he just wants to do that activity! As far as beltloops go... if you are not 1,000% positive (with proof) that the scout did not participate in some way at all...then give them the loop! Now, with pins it's different. The requirements are a bit more involved and it is within reason to be able to see some proof. The fishing pin for example: 1.Compete in a pack or community fishing tournament. 2.Demonstrate how to clean a fish in preparation for cooking and eating it. Properly dispose of any waste. 3.Prepare a report on three different kinds of fish. Include information on preferred habitats, feeding habits, and recommended fishing techniques, baits, and equipment needed to catch it. Tell your den or an adult family member what you learned. 4.Draw a picture of three different types of fishing reels. Explain how each works. 5.Tie three fishing flies that are used in places you fish. Use at least one to fish. 6.Practice casting for 30 minutes at a target 30 feet away. 7.Select a species of fish and draw a picture of it, correctly labeling each part and its function. 8.Replace the line in a fishing reel. 9.Make a simple pole and line fishing rig. Use it to catch a fish. 10.Catch a fish using artificial bait or lures. 11.Practice fishing on five occasions, complying with local fishing regulations and the Outdoor Code. Requirements # 1 and 3 require some paperwork of some sort. Can the scout or parent show the entry form, the report or not? #9 requires that the scout rig up a pole. Can he show it to you? Again, I wouldn't take the scout to task with a formal inquiry, if it comes to that, just trust the parent and hope all is good. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

AMEN TO THAT!

I'm going to go way, way way out on a limb and take a stab of a guess at etimating a situation: While I have no doubt that starting a Troop is going to be hard, require alot ofr work and be an uphill battle for a few years........I'll bet that you yorself could do it. See, wether it is harder or easier may not apply here. Why? Well...apples and oranges for starters. TRhen on top of that, you have some experience of pulling a new pack out of thin air. Granted, alot of particulars and details are different...but you are talking about an older group of boys. That little bit of age and maturity may make things easier...especially if you can offer something that the existing troops can't.

I have taken plenty of training over the course of a year. Both online and in real life. While online can be taken at my convienence: wether 1am or 5 pm is great! But.....You ever try to ask a computer video a question?

GREAT POST! Nope! Not shouting..just emphazising! Granted, it may not be as prevailent in Cubs as it is in Boys...but that attiutde is here too. Now some pack leaders do have a "GOBN" mentality. THese guys have been the leaders since Tiger and do not need ANYBODY to tell them anything at all! If that leader is about to step into a nest of snakes while hiking...well darnnit .. that's because he meant to! You know... to show you what not to do! But then on the other side of the coin: New parents just finished their training and are pretty excited about becoming a DL or ADL. Every word out of their mouth is cub scout this and cub scout that. They see a few of the incumbant ( for lack of better word) leaders standing over to the side talking, they walk up and start talking YP, BALOO, cooking or G2SS right away. Then feel kinda outcast when the other existing DL's lok at them kinda funny. Of course, in their excitement, the new leader didn't notice that the DL's were not talking about scouting at all, but rather boating,fishing, cars and engines, some recipe to try on the grill or whatever. Kinda an awkward situation sometimes. So the new guy gets the idea that he's an outcast and the others have the GOBN mentality when they don't. Soon enough, the new guy will either see that his first impression was wrong, or he'll constantly think he's the outcast and make everything into something it's not. My experience was neither of the two. My experience was in situations where I just learbed that as a pack or den - we are not allowed to do something, but if I mention that it is not alowed or at the least, not sanctioned by BSA...... I get the whole "but we always done it before " speach. So maybe not so much GOBN , but rather steadfast in our ways of thinking? But then again, I was labeled as part of the GOBN ( to put it nicely) when I couldn't tell a parent that their son was absolutely for sure going to get an award at that nights pack meeting for selling over $500.00 of popcorn - even though they handed out the popcorn yet hadn't collected the money yet, AND the turn in date had passed by 2 months! Matter of fact, I was only handing out prizes/giving recognition as a last minute thing because the CM was suddenly "obligated " by her employer to be elsewhere. I told "Mrs.Mom that I really didn't know anything but what was on the paperwork in front of me. Still...just like that...I was a proud member of the GOBN - Hampstead NC chapter!