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Some of my venturers are organizing an awesome camporee for their GS district. They are doing a great job. They asked me to help out with map and compass ... seeing that I have spent more time "getting found" than anyone they know, it's a good choice on their part. However, one of the topics that they will cover is not in their field of expertise. I suggested to their GS leader that some of our male venturers might be better suited to instruct a topic, but she was very could to the idea. Instead one of the girls will teach it based on her book-learning. Previously, female venturers have taught this topic to cadettes at a community park, so I know this isn't a political thing between Venturing and GSUSA. I know it's not an unrelated adult male kind of thing because, well, I'm helping. I know it's not about letting boys help with Gold Awards in general because I've seen other projects invite boys and girls to help. Is there anything on the "GS books" against letting a better qualified youth of the opposite sex instruct? Could this be a local thing? I am just trying to figure out where the lines are drawn.

It's like I have an evil twin. Question ... do any of your boys want to be den chiefs? I think you know where I'm going with this.

KDD, if this matters to your son. (It may not. He may want to keep his new buddies all for himself!) Here's what you do ... 1. Talk to the lodge officers about any upcoming service opportunities. 2. Ask your son which ones he thinks would be cool. 3. Have him call his buddies next day and say "Hey, since you bailed on me today, I didn't know what to sign us up for, but I thought it would be cool if we did ___ together, so I put your name down. Hope you don't mind!" 4. Direct mom to this forum and encourage her to submit a topic "Pushy scout voluntold my son!" Other scouters on this forum can take it from there.

Fellowship time is no longer valued. "Did you like your time?" Mom asks while surfing her phone. "Yes! Great people, I really felt welcome." Son replies. "What did you do those last few hours?" Mom asks when the kitten video ends. "Not much. Watched a movie, chewed the fat." Son half-heartedly replies to a half-hearted conversation. "That's nice ..." replies Mom absently while checking any new recipes. "Yeah." Son says walking over to the game console to see if the latest mod for World of Warcraft comes out. Mom thinks to herself, "Well, that group is a real time waster. Gotta get the boy into something more engaging. Oh, look! A new kitten video!"

Now an unsuspecting scoutmaster haunted by this latest batch of crossovers ... That would be a scary flick!

We did this for a while when we had large numbers and lots of dads who really liked to camp. It really only lasted for a couple of outings. The advantage was it actually got us out of the boys' hair. We didn't mind being accountable to the SPL. And we could cook up a storm! The disadvantage was not every adult wanted to uniform and nobody really wanted to compete with the boys, so we disbanded before we could create our own patch and flag. Boys appreciate us being available to assist them. They appreciate us doing our own creative things. They don't appreciate us imitating them.

My opinion from the cheap seats: a UC's usefulness depends on the unit's interest in external inputs, the SM's availability/ability to respond to external inputs, the UC's network of inputs, and the UC's awareness of his own boundary's. Those are a lot of factors beyond knocking on three doors every week, and a UC is only going to commit to where those things are in place. Districts with lots of units lakcking those factors are gonna have a hard time getting scouters to volunteer as UCs. If your unit is in such a district, unless you're failing, you won't see your UC much at all.

SGeek, Your question was about handling future instances. So that's what I answered. Some further thoughts ... Of course the other issue is patrol method and camp etiquette. In a perfect world your troop would have about 10 patrols 300' apart. It'd be nice if you always had that 200 by 300 yard postage stamp of land! That distance makes it pretty clear to a boy where he does or does not belong. But, I suspect you all are usually crammed pretty tight ... and by the sound of it, this was summer camp and therefore even more crowded. In these circumstances, boys need to be taught camp etiquette. Simply put, a scout is courteous and asks "permission to enter" even if it's just passing through a common path. Your older boys will model this automatically. But from day 1 they need to explain to the boys how walk through camp. Really and truly this applies when boys visit from patrol to patrol as well. Also explain to the boys that when they are visiting other camps, to go nowhere unescorted ('cept maybe the latrine). As for handling the current situation ... I wouldn't tell the father to "pound sand" as 2c suggests. I would explain to the father and the boy that he won't have to wait until the next CoH to receive his patch. You will order it as soon as the BoR is satisfied and have your SPL award it at the next meeting after it comes in. A boy may certainly hold rank before being recognized for it at a CoH I would still apologize to the boy for making clear that this might not be a straightforward BoR. Judge any advice from a district advancement chair on how well he/she has advised you in the past. Balance that with the level of trust you have in your committee ... which seems to be high. Meanwhile, for a teachable moment, ask your PLC if bureaucracy got in the way of justice in this case.

Now you're putting words into his mouth, Stosh. I suspect if the boys took it in rotation (the owl handling taps; the lark, reveille), Os448 would shell out for two patches. He might count time served as 1/2 the duration per boy in office, but that's a different thread ...

Yeah. Stand by your boy. There is no way he should have to answer to a bunch of adults. Have the SPL and PL take time to talk with the boy THAT day. Tell the blowhard SM that if he has issues, he can have his SPL take it up with your SPL. Since you didn't suspend the scout, and if wandering off is a chronic problem that the boy has, you need to prep him for a rough board of review.

Yah, hmm. I intended the question to be something "in between the lines". Based on some previous posts, scouters were inferring about what qualifies as a good project. (A few years ago there was an obsession over man-hours.) I'm not trying to be judgmental here, but if you don't have Life (and lower rank) scouts coming to you asking about project ideas, you're just weird. And if the only reply is some quote from a workbook, you're even stranger. This question not a policy quiz, it is about how you advise your candidates in the context of how your troop runs. Although he clearly didn't vote, based on Stosh's replies I'd put him with #4. In other words, his troop should always be doing projects. Boys should always be leading them. At some point a boy will lead a project just like he and his buddies always have, only this time a workbook gets filled out and he has it (along with his career as Life scout) reviewed by a bunch of old farts. I personally have been at #3, but wonder if I should move to #4. We have older boys, many of whom have ignored advancement. Some wont be Life by age 17.5, so they won't be required to be a project lead if that's the only time we let them. A healthy step for us may be asking a 1st class scout to take point in, say, Scouting for Food. Our adult who runs it would then take a back seat. For NJ's sake, I'll try and change the survey to allow multiple selections.

Then the letter should come from the Skipper. It's good that you all are sharing the leadership burden. But boys will be equally humiliated if they think they have to face down a committee of adults.

If the boy wants to survey invalids, let him!

Sometimes the discussion in other threads comes off critical of certain projects because institutions in our communities often are prepared with nuts in bolts in store ... all they need is someone to organize a labor force. That seems to make it easier for the boy (although sometimes I suspect it complicates things). When you advise your Life scout, what do you suggest regarding his project's scope/challenge should be? Discuss.

H2O, just keep in mind 1. Someone before you took risks while you were a youth member in their unit. 2. Other organizations have skeletons, and their small numbers allow them to keep things closeted quite well. 3. Your depth of leadership shielded you from false accusations. 4. The situation is no more delicate because the CC's boy was a perpetrator. 5. It takes a while for emotions to subside when things like this happen. 6. Success is still possible. I would not split hairs over defining hazing or not. Conspiring to deliver blunt force trauma to fellow scouts needs no other label. Untimely electronics use leading to a missed watch is more an operations issue. Youth leaders, with some guidance on your part, should be responsible for ship discipline. It's fair to let your most trusted youth leaders that you feel like quitting. As far as letters to parents, no more than four sentences. "Johnny was found doing __. It was unbecoming of a scout. He is suspended from ship activities until __. If, after that he wishes to resume ship life, he may request a conference with me and the boatswain." There is simply nothing more that you need to say.

Really? You tell your denner to organize your SFF? Make the calls to council, read any guidelines, mobilize a volunteer to pick up collection boxes and bags, schedule the event, make flyers, announce it at pack meetings, call volunteers, tally collection, arrange for food bank pick-up? All with minimal adult guidance? I'd love to meet that cub! (I have met some brownies who almost could lead in that way!) Just like any project, you are looking for how much the boy's hand is on the tiller and his capability of learning from it. That said, if all of the Eagle projects in your troop are beginning to look a little boiler-plate, I would challenge the Life scouts to really think about what they'd be proud to see their name on. Usually that's enough to generate diversity of ideas.

It's nice to hear that it's not just our kids who drive hard till they drop! (But then again, mad dogs an Englishmen are out in the noonday sun. ) Prevention by prodding is not enough. Part of prevention is helping youth self-assess. This requires preparation via first-aid training regarding signs and symptoms. Then coaching during the event. E.g. "That headache you're feeling right now, I wonder if it's related to anything we might have talked about in first aid class?" I had an entire crew who was functioning flawlessly for 6 hours of hiking come to a cross-roads and had the dickens of a time over a simple decision (turn left or turn right). After a few minutes of this, I asked them if they could grab a drink and then rethink. Water bottles were empty! I then gave them the directive to navigate to the nearest stream ... Pointing! The whole way I heard complaints (as we were walking downhill into a ravine) "we'll never find water here" "this is so far out of our way" "what a waste of time" . Then we hit the stream and started filtering, and smiles came back on faces. One youth asked my daughter "How did he know this was exactly what we needed?" I think since then she's learned to self-asses quite well.

Well we may have lost you, but as I tell my boys ... "It doesn't matter how many times you get lost, as long as you get found just as often."

Back to topic ... I recertified my BSA guard at camp. It was a good use of my time, and kept me out of the boys' hair most of the day. (The course was at the other camp on reservation, so I clocked most of my service hours guarding boys from other troops.) Unfortunately, the certification card never got back to me. I contacted the reservation director who said he'd look into it. This kind of snag may take months to resolve. Offering WFA and other challenging adult/older scout courses at summer camp sounds like a good idea, but we have a ways to go to make the follow-up work smoothly.

I didn't realize they weren't eligible before. But then again, <.1% of venturers seem interested in venturing medals, so I guess there was even less of a demand for the NOA from Venturers. It would be awesome this results in some more youth being recognized for their well-rounded outdoorsmanship..

Look, everyone, another fella wearing two hats! Welcome to the forums!

Finally, regarding O/A, the SM determines which youth candidates are eligible for election. The guidelines do not mention tent mates during the required nights, while they are very clear on other things that may or may not count towards those nights. So, it's clear to me that one's philosophy of "manly camping" should not come into play here. A boy who can't manage his ordeal (on first attempt) is not a detriment to the order. A boy who can, while yet an intimidating thug and ruffian, is a detriment. You seem convinced that this boy was elected to the order by virtue of his cheerful service, and you should stand by that. The CC's opinion is counter the ideals of the order. You (or ideally one of your ASMs) should feel free to say so in public.

I had a friend who attempted to CC like this. It was rough. One way that I handled it is to mandate that no committee meeting be heald in the absence of the crew president. That basically ended committee meetings for us. The youth took a little more responsibility and learned to contact the appropriate MC for the task they needed to accomplish. You could also insist the same thing with a troop, but you would have to have an SPL willing to be available for it, and mature enough to respectfully disagree. A comment youth can allay adults' concerns about these sorts of things.

This isn't hard. As SM, you must insist on one more line, "Any part of this policy may be revised at any time at the discretion of the Parrol Leaders' Council."