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@WisconsinMomma, this is where it gets really complicated. I consider a 17 year old to be more "locked in" than a 13 year old. This is partly from Jr. High experience (mine, then mine relived again with my kids, then with my scouts ...) and partly from literature. If you have the misfortune of meeting a sexually aggressive 13 year old, there is an opportunity that negative reinforcement will correct the behavior. A boy like this can "flip" from being a terror to being the staunchest defender of the weak. I believe, for both men and women, that window closes between ages 14-15, and suddenly suspensions and expulsions become things to brag about. Therefore, in a developmental context, for every strategy (expel, suspend, remove privileges, send to training, etc ...), we have to reflect on a couple of questions about how to best protect youth from similar incidents: Can we turn the wayward youth from opponent to ally? How many others will be harmed if we fail? How many others will be protected if we succeed? How will we be able to tell failure from success? Needless to say, those answers are more obvious for some situations than others. Because I've seen so many aggressors turn defender, kids like the SPL are not who keep me awake at night. It's the kids who fail to call fools on their folly that worry me the most. A suspension might make onlookers reflect a little, but it won't give them the courage they need for the next time. They'll have to dig deeper for that. If they keep up the pattern of blending into the wallpaper, we're all lost.

'Skip, I don't think you're in a much different situation on your side of the pond. Expulsion (instead of suspension) could be on the table but for one reality: as much as I admire the MeToo movement for shining a light into the dark spaces of our liberated culture, the fact remains that our youth face overwhelming encouragement from multiple medial outlets to physically prey on the weak. In our society, this allows aggressive male behavior to become normative. By way of example, during one coffee break a week, I help chaperon some youth (mostly high school seniors, very mixed race). For this group, I'm usually just in fly-on-the-wall mode. They had a special guest who volunteers for the local Action Against Rape organization. She challenged them with a few scenarios and asked them to identify them as flirting, harassment, or sexual harassment. One scenario really divided them: You are told, "Let's kiss, or we won't kick it together anymore." (Slang note: at least in our inner city "kick it together", an erstwhile gang phrase, is replacing "go steady" in defining couples who are being exclusive.) All of the young women, and half of the young men identified that as sexual harassment, the other half boys were eventually won over ... except for one young man, who just wasn't buying the argument that a phrase like that was any kind of threat. What made it interesting was the young lady next to him was really upset that he wasn't getting it. (Of course, she was the kid who happened to be helping draft state legislation on the topic. ) I finally spoke up and explained to him that the statement reduced physical intimacy to a transaction, and that could threaten any person who comes to count on that close relationship. He bought that, sort of, and at least it diffused the fireworks by helping everyone accept why couples with an equal sense of power might be less intimidated by an attempt to link intimacy and standing in a relationship while other couples would find such a linkage as corrosive and demeaning. After the talk, I went up to the young man and told him to keep asking tough questions. I think he will. But, think about these youth, five years younger and twice as impulsive and very little chance that they recognize how they are taking advantage of power dynamics. A suspension gives them, even the instigator, a chance to think, maybe for the first time, "Do I really want to be a scout?" When I was bullied (elementary school), Momma told the guys they weren't allowed around the house until they could be gentlemen. She then told me to "Get big." Eventually, we all came around. I learned to stand up for myself. They learned to be kinder. Many guys just need a stern wake-up call. Obviously, if this kid was suspended or expelled from other activities for the same thing, then yes, expulsion should be on the table.

True. But ... Athletic trainers aren't that hard to come by. I had an uncle who was boxing at the local gym well into his 80s. Personally, my problem is ego. I don't like spending time and money getting coached.

A timely post from Bryan.

What's with people thinking they can take unit leaders for granted? Oh well, I'll miss the profile pic.

@MattR, of course I'm making assumptions. If I said "I'm sure you all tried to squelch this before, but you've been dealt a hand of conduct disordered kids." I'd be making assumptions. That doesn't change the challenge before us. It's twofold: 1) understand the role adults have played in setting this up and 2) set the proper bar for the youth. I've had the privilege of associate advisors and ASM's who would correct me. I've also had folks who swept things under the rug behind my back because they knew I'd run the problem up the chain -- not out of a sense of obligation, but because generally when I did that, I've gotten helpful advice from seasoned professionals. Those folks basically loaded up a powder keg. So, I'm now a strong proponent of putting all cards on the table and calling spades spades. When there were disciplinary issues at camps, I had no problem telling the SM or aggrieved staff, "I have my keys here. (To drive the wayward scout home that hour, if desired.)" I'm not accusing this new scoutmaster of being too lax. I am just saying that part of this is taking an honest look at the past, and if leaders can recall instances that set the tone, their best strategy is to own up to it to the boys.

I wear my WB neckerchief, mainly because it's the only one that fits well. But, it has made a couple scouters uneasy until they realize that I'm all in for the boys.

I'm sorry, it could be I misread. Were you not ASM for two years? And did you not see bullying incidents at that time? How did you handle them? Might your PLC be falling in line with the SPL because they were imitating the adults they knew? Now I could be dead wrong. And for the past three years you showed up at every committee meeting demanding a heavier hand against abusive scouts ... possibly even calmly telling those scouts themselves what you were demanding. I'm not gonna waste time filling in blanks. The results won't satisfy you. And how highly strangers on the Internet think about your character doesn't mean a hill of beans if the boys don't believe it. None of that changes what should be done. You could play "new sheriff in town" or you could own all you all's past of letting things slide. You picked up the patch. You own it. Then you tell everyone, "We're scouts. We're better than this. And, starting now, here's how we'll prove it. ..." Bottom line: insist the committee give these boys time away from the troop to decide if they really want to be scouts. They might compromise, but so what? Even if they override your decision, any other victim in your troop will know you're on their side.

@EagleForever, welcome to the forums. If it's any consolation, when I came back with Son #1 there were these kids in Exploring shirts calling themselves venturers!

If you aren't worried about time, you can maximize your glide time off of each flip turn to the point you only need a few strokes to the end of the lane. (I had a lot of pool time in phys Ed class to figure this stuff out -- a couple of years after I swam my first mile.) But that's not very sporting. That's just what we need, one more adjective to ward off the one in ten thousand slackers who would try to pass off 17 100 yard swims as a mile. As anyone here heard of a scout pulling such shenanigans?

All of the above, plus the SMs spouse should be held in very high esteem.

@Bside, welcome to the forums and thanks in advance for all you do for the boys. I could second guess that you let past acts of bullying go unchecked. But, that's water over the dam. Reflect on it, and if you think by being a little severe earlier might have prevented this, you'll owe this scout an apology. Talk to your committee chair and charter org rep, but I think a three month suspension from meetings and activities is warranted for the complicit scouts. Their return should be based on their understanding of BSA's and your policy on bullying. They should not be given positions of responsibility until after they show they can comport themselves in a scout-like manner on he next activity in which they participate. And even then, the assigning of PoRs will be at the discretion of the PLC who replaces them during the next three months. It's a tough row to hoe. You risk losing these scouts. But it seems like you can't afford to do otherwise.

I've no experience with triathlon wet suits so this is a sincere question: while reducing drag (and presumably keeping up core temperature), do they also increase flotation? My experience with neoprene was that there was a trade-off of one vs. the other. @69RoadRunner, your point about modesty is well taken. Let's all assume for this discussion that whatever local standards for modesty are being met.

@EdCornflake, welcome to the forums! My gut says linked troops would benefit from a shared website, even if they don't share much else in resources. It should make it easier to see who is doing what, and it may be a great way for each of them to "raise the bar" in terms of activities, advancement, patrol bragging rights, etc ... Nothing wrong with two webmasters if you need them. Or it could be best with one webmaster and the one troop communicates to the other to keep everything posted. Depends on the youth who are available to do the work. This is definitely a "your mileage may vary" thing.

Seems like cold mountain lakes would be pretty clear. Don't see how a wet suit would muddy them ... unless they shed microplastics? Seriously, though, I find that wetsuits have drag that offset any benefit of flotation. Some scouts might find them hard to adapt to. I certainly have opted for mild hypothermia. (I swim in Lake Erie, which is at 55F most Memorial Days.) But our camp's ranger wouldn't let swimmers in, wetsuit or otherwise, if the temp is below 64F. I think that is why the requirements are clear about the four hours of preparation -- the intent is that you are prepping in the same body of water you'll swim in, usually across several days in the same week. That would help determine the need for thermal protection.

@DadandGareth, welcome to the forums! And thanks for resurrecting a useful topic. No parent was around when went for my first (or any subsequent) mile swim. I will say that the absolute worst is laps in a square. My motivation? Forestalling death. That's what was pounded into me by my ARC instructor (a Women's Air Corps vet, tough as nails) from when we were in guppies (or whatever they called that 1st class). My brothers were Navy, an uncle was rescued in Midway -- twice, so the whole "lost at sea" scenario was pretty close to the surface. Part of that mentality is athletics and stamina. But part is also calculus. "Am I getting everything out of each stroke? How many times to breath, really? If I have to do another mile, can I?" And later, when I got guard certified, "If I have a victim in tow, will we make it?" Those 40 minutes give you a lot of time to think.

Well, I should have reported this after taking the mile hike to my morning coffee shop, but I slept in, and it was more a twenty yard dash to the bus instead. From the school of hard knocks: You don't want to find out on a 14 mile trek that you are only good for 8. You don't want some young aquatics director busting your chops because your rescue sprint is a half-second too slow. Physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight ... none of them get any easier as you age. But our youth need us to put forth your best effort. And not just the kids, I've seen a fella turn his health around (ditch the cigarettes start cycling) when he realized he couldn't make the the mile hike into back-country with his kids. He has a disease that required multiple surgeries and time in the hospital, but I think the change in habits gave him the stamina to fight it. His wife is now trying to keep up! On the other hand I lost one friend and had another nearly drop dead from running. So, yes, there's a balance. And figuring that balance is not trivial.

Anybody combine a few MBs and help a scout build their own pack?

Before throwing in the blue neckerchief, I'd look at this guy. A dark horse, maybe, but maybe his son will get more out of the program if he helps dad prepare meetings. I heard from the Cubmaster that the new bear program is a bit of a grind. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but he said it felt a lot more like school. I encouraged him that if that's the case, no one would fault him for dropping advancement having the boys pick their favorite activities from the book and going at them full tilt. Can the troop give you a Den Chief for this den?

Oh, they were. But from the sample of two small-town FL GS/USA girls who I know and love, they were doing all of their camping with their cub-scout brothers.

I feel your pain! Some of those packs require a degree to understand! There's nothing like visiting a bunch of stores and trying on the variety that they have in stock. Some stores even have weights to give you a sense of how they'd feel with load. Personally, I've stuck to external frames. I can scavenge my retired packs for parts that I want to keep on the new ones. Kevlar straps and para-chord are beautiful things. Rated carabiners are nice too.

Our units collect donations from folks who just made purchases in the grocery store, so no. The food bank volunteers do check before distributing. From what I've seen, the larder is drawn down to bare shelves between collection times, so it's hard to imagine any of the canned goods reaching their sell-by date.

Hi @Jenn, welcome to the forums! As the other scouters have noted, You all are in a good place with room to grow. One way to break the cycle: offer a weekend activity for your son's patrol. If you have a campfire, great! But it could be to carve/paint pumpkins, bake pies, or make-your-own pizza. Invite a couple of adult leaders to come enjoy the pie.

Read again. I quoted my father-in-law -- not granddad. Therefore it was referring to how I wound up with the best mother-in-law a guy could ask for. Although I'm sure Mrs. Q gets the "brought int this world" benefit! But Pack's misread shows that blaming the writer for folks who read facts not in evidence is a little silly. It's fine to have a little back and forth to hone in on what's being said, and if what I've said is patently unconscionable, I'm more than happy to change my approach to youth's issues. But, that means the cause had better be against the construct itself and not a straw-man. Proclaiming "it might sound like ... <insert PC concern here>" doesn't carry the weight that "this definitely implies ..." does. Just like the soon-to-be-father Eagle candidate. By most of our books, we could dock him for fornication. Some of us might also fault the abandonment of universal precautions. But, using that to speak to his entire character is setting up a another straw-man. And, how you weigh it against all the other scout's traits (including how he is going about responding to this situation) might very well depend on where you live. I will take this moment to point out; however, that the real answer probably involves "Time will tell." If the Eagle rank weren't merely a youth award, you could tell the scout, "We need a year to see if you will handle this situation responsibly and with true scout spirit." Being able to do that might help develop a desirable character.

@malraux, I would strongly suggest against throwing babies out with bathwater. It's entirely possible that someone could be wrong about one thing and quite right about another. As to influenza vaccinations, it's true that the more people get them the better the odds of survival for the vulnerable in our communities. But, that's only to a point. @WisconsinMomma, I bet you probably are on that balancing point. The odds of you or your suffering gravely from your vaccination are likely balanced against the odds of someone around you suffering gravely from being exposed to the virus that you'll propagate. That differential becomes significant if you live/work around elderly, asthmatics, etc ... Personally, I missed a flu vaccine one year and got laid up for a week. This was before son #2 was born and had asthma. Me so achy I can't leave bed: no problem. My kid in respiratory shock: big problem. Measles, tetanus, rubella, on the other hand, have striking effects. A break-out in a camp would be demoralizing. But @RichardB, do we have incident reports of such things? P.S. - As to this just being a council camp director's prerogative, some of us find ourselves on council camping committees. So, the discussion could be on a docket that we'll read and vote on. It would be nice to know what others do when, say, a med form appears with no records of vaccination.