BadenP

scoutldr is very correct, science, including evolution, and religious belief are not mutually exclusive. The problem is that most people do not fully understand evolution most using Darwin as their only source. Evolution is prominent and provable in all living things and can be seen over a short period of time in the plant and insect world. Creationism on the otherhand is an innaccurate twisting of scriptures to promote a theory void of any credible, empirical facts.

It really frosts me when someone wants to disguise ignorance under the blanket of a misinterpretation of scripture or a false teaching. God created man from the dust which is inert matter Narraticong. I would not be bragging too much about your daughter challenging her teacher with the same nonsense you propose, close mindedness = ignorance. Are you also espousing to your daughter that she get married after high school, have a lot of kids and be a stay at home mom? If you are there is a compound in Texas you might consider joining.

After almost five years as a professional in charge of two large districts, staff advisor for the OA and JLT and ass't camp manager there were some awesome experiences and rewards. However I put in 80 + hours per week days, evenings and weekends and was never home. The job almost caused me to lose my wife and family and finally I had to reset my priorities and give up the profession. If you are single it would be great for a while but if you want to have a life outside of scouting stay a volunteer.

Well Bob your interpretation of the responsibilities of professional scouters in a council is just plain wrong. You have never been to professional scouting executive training so it doesn't surprise me you would create an factless,fictional, and full of hot air argument around something you so obviously do not understand. I suggest you sit down with your SE someday and allow him to enlighten you with the facts you so sorely lack. By the way my email info is correct so you obviously never sent me a PM or I would have received it. Was this another bit of fiction from you? Bob,sometimes you come off so pathetic that if your responses weren't so arrogant I would feel sorry for you.

First of all Bob that is not what I said, READ IT AGAIN!, "the council professionals are the local representatives of National." Secondly, I do not know what comment you are referring to? By the way I never received any pm from you.

Bob, from the first line of your first post on this thread and the second line of my post we seem to be in agreement with the topic of this thread, hmmmmmm. To clarify for Eamonn the council only intervenes if there is a disagreement or a flagrant violation of scouting policies, otherwise the unit scouters makes the call.

This is an offshoot of another thread that F-scouter so heavy handedly terminated, as usual. To answer the question of who determines what is within the realm of scouting is very simple it is National which is locally represented by the professional scouters in your council. Any other answer is plainly untrue, sorry Bob. You can reinterpret or misinterpret all the manuals you want to but it does not change the facts folks. Your SE has the final say in your council, he represents National and sets these policies for his council, you can debate this all you want but it will not change the facts. All manuals are nothing more than guidelines to follow as close as you can but they are not LAW ! When a disagreement errupts over something in a manual it is the SE or his appointee job to clarify it for the volunteer, not an armchair internet scouter. After almost five years as a DE and Sr. DE I had to put this into practice in the field as we were trained to, everything from OA Ordeal disagreements to a SM accused of child abuse. We received plenty of backup from council and the exec. board, but we had to deliver the message from on high which was not always easy but was part of the job. I hope that answers your question Bob.

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Stick to your guns Vicki, and you are right its not worth arguing with Bob he is in his own little world, BOB WHITE SCOUTS OF AMERICA!, lol.

Once again Bob you missed John's point completely, only if there are no other mb counselors available should a parent counsel their own son. I too have seen incidents where parents passed their kids through who had not even come close to completing the requirements. In one case the parent was a scoutmaster who passed his two boys all the way through Life in less than a year. The turmoil this created internally in the troop resulted in the troop folding. This is not a matter of whether it is allowed or not it is a matter of keeping to the requirements for a badge which many parents seem to turn a blind eye to when it involves their own kid. Integrity, honesty, and trustworthy seem to go out the window in many of these cases. You can't look at everything in scouting through rose colored glasses Bob, which you seem to do frequently.

Long Haul is essentially correct, local courts in our area have ruled in favor of the CO's and have denied council claims to obtain a units funds during dissolution of several units. The CO's took the money for their own purposes since the court ruled they were the responsible party. In one case the adult leaders and the CO were having difficulties so the unit leaders closed the bank account, took the equipment and restarted elsewhere. The CO and council were told they would have to sue those leaders and that only the CO had a legal right to those assets. The council withdrew as did the CO to pursue the matter further. In the four cases in our council the CO's were the only recognized legal authority by the courts, no matter what the council believed their rights were the court ruled against them. Another point, the councils are seperate entities but are under the umbrella of National. In other words if a SE or DE screws up big time National can be named as a secondary party, much like an affiliate company of a large corporation. When I was working as a scouting professional my council was involved in two cases like this, and the staff was trained in great detail about how the system really works in the state of California.

While you may not like the methodology they are at least trying to find ways to bring in membership, unlike our own organization who feels if it was okay in 1950 its ok today. I applaud their efforts and I hope that theNAtional BSA is going to try thinking out of the box someday before it is too late and the BSA goes the way of the Woodcraft Rangers, etc.

F Scouter Most districts do not even have a finance committee and secondly the FOS is one of the three main duties a DE is assessed on, if they don't make their goal 2 years in a row they are usually terminated by the SE. So don't think for one minute the DE is not responsible for FOS, in the five years I was a DE I watched four of my fellow DE's get fired for not making goal, even though their districts thought they were great, the SE thought otherwise. What goes on in professional scouting behind the scenes would amaze most volunteers.

F-Scouter please do not edit this post with your usual hatchet style because it is the gospel truth. Seeing as how the post adds nothing but off-topic negativity. Chop-chop. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Back on point, unfortunately I have seen this happen when I was a DE in my own council, the SE tried to pull a fast one on the United Way and we wound up losing all funding from them for these phony paper units our SE created to boost numbers. Needless to say that two months later our SE was transferred to another council where he lasted for one year before National finally gave him the boot. This kind of stuff happens much more frequently than you might expect. I usually disagree with Merlyn and his anti scouting positions but in this case it is not about taking soccer away from kids its about a lack of honesty and integrity from a professional representative of the BSA. We leaders demand these traits in our youth and should expect them from all scouters volunteer and especially from those paid professionals who have made scouting their career. Merlyn I hate your constant demeaning of the BSA, however in this case your criticism is justified. Remember however most scouters are good honest people trying their best to help our youth, and it is my hope that the new Chief scout Bob Mazzuca will clean up many of these problems during his tenure.

Bob I agree with you that training is important and should be taken by EVERY scout leader, however the point some of us are trying to make is that the current style and content of training is woefully lacking the necessary skill sets necessary to mount a quality outddor program for the youth. Another piece of the problem is the quality of many if not most of those doing the training who lack the first hand outdoor experience nessary to teach. You can not read a syallubus alone and be qualified to teach a skill set without first obtaining first hand experience in the field. Do you not agree? The point about using information from the old handbooks is that there are some great information in them missing in current handbooks, you yourself mentioned knot tying for one, I will add pioneering skills for another, as well as many others. When we have serious legal questions in this country the legal minds go back to the Constitution, written in 1789, no one has ever suggested that this document is now obsolete. My point is that when you go back and read the writings of the founders you get a better sense of the true intentions of those founders, and in the case of scouting a true sense of the focus and motives of the program. New does not always mean better.

Pappy Pontificate all you want with your misunderstanding of early church history but the truth of the matter is that the early church was a mixture of a variety of community groups who celebrated the good news in a variety of ways some good some not so good as Paul's letters bear out. The term "catholic" used by the early leaders of this new religion referred to a universal understanding of something and had NO bearing or reference to the Roman Catholic Church which would not officially come into exsistence until hundreds of years later. I will put my masters degree in theology from Notre Dame and doctorate from Harvard Divinity against your misconceptions any day. By the way Jesus never started a formal religion himself rather he brought a new way to understand God's love for humanity and to give all humanity a way to obtain eternal life through his death and resurrection. All religious doctrines are man made creations based on these teachings and some are more accurate than others. Contrary to what you may have been taught Jesus did not create a papal hierarchy that exsists today, he in fact condemned the priesthood of his day as being self absorbed, caring more about themselves than their congregations. That is the reason the priesthood of his day plotted early on to have Jesus killed. So if you are going to quote the early church leaders please do so in the proper context.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Sorry Pappy but you got your facts a little screwed up. First the Roman Catholic Church did not come into exsistence until about 1050 when they split from the eastern Church and established the papacy in Rome. The church in the time of Constantine 400's AD was not even called Catholic, until he created the hierarchy of what was the early church in the east and what would later become known as the Roman Catholic Church eliminating the small community churchs of Paul replacing them with elaborate Basillicas (Cathedrals). The first written Bible was by St. Jerome in 400AD who created the Latin Vulgate Bible, translating the ancient scrolls written in Aramaic, Ancient Hebrew and Greek into Latin. It was the Catholic monks in Britian who were held prisoners during Henry the VIII's reign when he banned Catholicism in England that organized the Bible into chapters and verses like we are used to today, it was called the Douay Rheims Bible used by the Catholic Church until the 1960's. So you see the Catholics did not write the Bible just modified it to match their unique brand of theology.

F-scouter You know it is bad enough you hack up my post but posting false statements about what you deleted is really going over the line. Why don't you leave it alone and let the others here decide if I was making rude comments, of which I was not by the way. In my opinion your baldface false comments destroy any credibility you have as a moderator. You may not like me, of which I could care less but at least quit being so heavy handed and STOP STATING ABSOLUTE LIES ABOUT MY COMMENTS!!! Scouter Terry, I think you might consider replacing F-Scouter as a moderator and appoint someone a little more impartial in his place. Bob, I was glad to see that you and I have at least some common ground on this issue. Nothing is indeed perfect in any youth program and we are here for the youth first and foremost and what interests them.

[****] [****] National does not consider the scouting skills printed in prior scout manuals to be obsolete, as long as the leaders use the current advancement requirements they can use information from past manuals, this is from my years in professional scouting, [****] There are actually more complete information on certain skills in some past books than in the current one, one is knot tying for example. Scoutmasters are allowed to use any approved BSA books in teaching their scouts, [****] the basic framework of many of the merit badge books were written in the 1950s. Now I am not advocating not using current manuals, [****] what I am saying is there are many gems to be had from the past that fascinate my scouts, that does not make them obsolete but added skill sets that can be extremely useful. [****] Much of what made scouting strong and popular in the past has been slowly bled away over the years, now with rapidly diminishing numbers maybe it is time for National to take another hard look at the current program and make some alterations. [****] following a syllabus or manual verbatim does not make someone a great leader or a program a good one. Current BSA training has become mostly all lecture with a little fieldwork thrown in as an aside. [****] so many new leaders have a difficult time in delivering a solid outdoor experience, boy scout and venturing training should be 70% practical and 30% lecture based, not the way it is today. When BP took those first boys out to Brownsea he did not sit them down and lecture to them for the week, he let them experience the outdoors and taught them the skills to live comfortably in the woods. That is what made the movement exciting and popular with the youth and the same is true today, unfortunately the program in trying to modernize has lost most of this excitement. [****] Moderator note - demeaning and derogatory personal comments about a fellow forum member have been deleted in the places marked [****] FScouter (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

The reason F-Scouter deleted my posts were because they were addressed to Bob White with a comment on the credibility of his answers. F-Scouter since becoming a moderator has done this on several other occassions, he is kind of a Bob White protector so watch out guys cuz it will happen to you too. By the way F-Scouter I have not received any pms from you, but I am glad I was right as to who the culprit was. Those of you who have been in this forum for a while remember how caustic Bob was to many posters when they opposed his views, he drove away some very good people from here, including two who were my friends. When Bob went away for a while things here improved immensely and my friend came back with a new identity. Now Bob has returned and as long as he is kept in check by the moderators that is fine with me, that includes you too F- Scouter. Well I have stated my position and I hope Bob is aware that I will continue to challenge any suspect or incorrect advise he gives out and he is welcome to do the same. Thank you all.

Bob, Your constant party line of the BSA is always right no matter what does get a little tiresome. Kudu's methodology of using BP's original program does not make him wrong because he disagrees with you, he is successful with his youth and that is what is important. He is not violating the BSA program overall he is enhancing it teaching the kids what scouting skills they want in addition to those required. Many scout leaders feel the BSA program is so watered down that the boys are looking for alternatives to scouting. The original program served well for many, many years, the focus of National today is so off the mark it will be a miracle if scouting lasts 30 more years. If by some miracle National wises up soon and sees that it is in the basics that Scouting was built and thrived maybe we will see boy scout membership begin to climb again, otherwise we will witness the demise of this great movement that is so desperately needed today. So look outside the box for once and try to learn from other viewpoints instead of dismissing them as "NOT SCOUTING!" The diminishing numbers of boy scouts over the last 20 years really says it all. Moderators : Please let this post stand instead of erasing it as you have done to my others, thank you. F-Scouter I am sure it was you.

Bob You give out misinformation once again, the fleur de lis is not and never has been a registered trademark, its origin goes back to early French history. As long as the patch does not say BSA or Boy Scouts of America IT IS NOT A COPYRIGHT VIOLATION, it can say pinewood derby, klondike derby, etc. This was verified by our National BSA scout shop manager, straight from the National supply division. The words pack, troop, crew are also not copyrighted and can be used on a patch with a fleur de lis. You need to check with someone who knows what they are talking about before you state what is not true Bob.

FYI Bob, The Patch Place does not use the BSA logo on their patches, they use a plain fleur-de-lis symbol which is not copyrighted and is used worldwide for a wide variety of things and organizations. By the way the violation of a copyright would be the problem of the manufacturer not the buyer. So Dad go ahead and use the Patch Place they have been in business for a long time and the BSA is fully aware of what they manufacture and there is no problem, in fact some scout stores use them for the generic scout patches, like pinewood derby,camporee,first aid, popcorn, scout sunday, etc.

Couldn't have happened to a better or more deserving guy, lol. Good one ED