BadenP

Once again F-Scouter you missed the point entirely, the BSA never gave any of the US companies the opportunity to bid on the contract and just took the cheapest bid from this Chinese company, so when the uniforms start to unravel and fall apart and scouts want their money back WHO DO YOU THINK WILL TAKE THE BLAME?, I'll give you a hint it won't be China. Wake up and smell the coffee you people who think National can do no wrong, I think that would be BW, F-Scouter and a few others.

Actually F-Scouter there are five US companies more than capable of meeting BSA uniform needs and I know through friends in the industry none of them were asked to submit bids by National. skeptic, you have posted many negative comments in past threads, those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones, eh! And my crew is doing quite well, growing and thriving thank you. For the record, I have been an active scouter for over 25 years in all of scoutings programs, I do not hate the BSA programs just the politics going on at National.

With all the bad publicity hitting the Boy Scouts these days, abuse stories, scandals with misuse of money, deaths on scouting ventures, lack of safety training scandals, etc., etc. it amazes me that National has sunk to a new low with the Made in China uniform. I agree with other posters here that this is nothing more than Hypocracy at its worse by National. It is not like we are going to save any money, and it amazes me that National can not find one textile company in the USA that could produce the uniform at a fair price. IMHO someone in National and Supply Division are raking in some payola that we will find out about in yet another scandal years from now. Mazzuca as a former DE of yours all I can say is I do not like the way you are steering the ship, the storm is on the horizon and you are heading into it full speed ahead.

Just for the record Bobby this is at my current council where I am a volunteer not the council where I was employed as a DE, but guess what it was the same at that council as well. So maybe it is your council that is incorrect, but I am willing to bet if you asked your SE he would say the same thing as myself. It must be hard not being perfect all the time BW, lol.

As a former professional scouter I sure do Bob and you are wrong once again. The COR has the authority to select all unit leadership and sign any and all applications, as the chosen representative of the CO, he represents their interests in all unit matters. The council can process any leader application as long as the COR or IH or both has signed it,technically they don't need both signatures since they both represent the CO, that is something DE's learn at professional training Bob. When the COR and CC are the same person this further solidifies the authority of any committee action since it also carries the authority of the CO. Technically after the COR is selected by the IH has only to sign the charter at renewal, and is the final authority to decide an issue if he disagrees with the actions of the COR, and in reality this very rarely happens. Currently I am the CC/COR of my crew and guess who decided the best selection of a new advisor to replace me, I DID. However I did let the committee have a vote, not because I had to but because it was the right thing to do in this instance, it unified this committee and made them feel an integral part of this transitional process. You see Bob this is what Beavah was talking about, you can't always hide behind a regulation and play hardball ramrodding your wishes down the throats of others because the book says so, sometimes you have to act with compassion!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Picking hairs now BW. Remember that the COR and the CC can be the same person it is the only adult unit dual registered position allowed. So if the CC and the COR are indeed the same person the committee would have the authority to decide many policy issues since the CO's interests is also represented. I think Beavah does present a much more accurate and detailed description of the policies concerning the committee and its functions rather than quoting a sentence or two out of context from a myriad of publications. Good job Beavah.

Actually success depends on who you talk to. This soccer program initially was developed solely as an outreach to Hispanic youth by National since the traditional scouting program has been unsuccessful in doing so. What has happened is that this program has also failed in attracting many Hispanic youth, the reason is not so much the program as the severe lack of understanding by National of the various latino cultures immigrating to our country. The consultants National used were mainly Mexican Americans who had already been part of mainstream America for many decades. So guess what happened their target audience needs were ignored and the program failed to reach its goal. The new goal seems to be to attract boys who think cub scouting is lame but like to play soccer. This is one of the reasons why Mazzuca is reorganizing National, they seem to be out of touch with our society today, and the needs of the volunteers and kids who make scouting what it is today.

Give it a rest Bob, first of all I was not leading the class and the instructor made it clear that there would be no more discussion, so it would had been inappropriate to try and take control of the conversation. Being a former professional among volunteer scouters does not carry as much weight as you think it does, and it doesn't give me any special power to question the competency of the instructor. This SM and I along with a group of others in attendance did have lunch together and we did discuss the topic in great detail with many constructive and positive ideas exchanged, so you see everything turned out for the best. If I had in the session challenged the instructor by demanding it says here in the scoutmaster handbook or any other resource, it would have been very counterproductive, much like you experience in this forum when you use the same tactics to tell someone they are wrong.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Is it just me or has this forum become increasingly more hostile since the return of Bob White? Kudu is essentially correct when he states that independent patrol activities are not really emphasized or even talked about very much if at all in council/district trainings. Even if IPA is in the book Bob in our age of fearful parents, potential lawsuits and other fear factors it is really not emphasized much anymore either in training or in practice, and not on just the local level either but all the way to the top. At PTC a few years ago in a discussion about patrol methods a SM mentioned this topic and how his patrols went off on hiking trips without an adult on a regular basis. Well about half of the SM's present told him how irresponsible that was, and then the instuctor from National stated that we did not have enough time to go into the issue and squashed the discussion. That I think is the sad reality of the state of boy scouting today that Kudu is referring to. So just because something is in writing doesn't make it so, sometimes the reality does not match the vision.

Another aspect to a council is that while the SE sets up a plan of action with his executive committee to benefit the units programs as well as raise funds to support council programs and expenses, he still gets his marching orders, aka priorities and goals from National. While we volunteers like to believe that the SE works for us that is only true on a superficial level. If the board wants an SE to be replaced they have to appeal to Regional, part of National,to prove their case to dismiss him and then ask for the file of available replacements. So who really is in control? Volunteers should feel proud about belonging to a council, especially when things are going good, as they should, but as OGE found out firsthand sometimes the needs of the one outweighs the needs of the few or the many. If you have good professionals in your council support them!

Then the question becomes should the knot or the training you received become the focus of attending PTC. Philmont is all about the experiences you have, not about doing enough to receive another cloth decoration for your uniform. If you feel that some award is required for doing what every good scout leader should be doing, improving their skills, then your motivation as a scouter would seem to be very self centered. Time for an EGO check. I have been to Philmont,PTC and the Sea Base twice over the years and the only recognition I need is from the smiles on my kids faces.

ATTACK OF THE FLAMETHROWER !!! Not taking your bait Bobby, you just go to prove my point, you do not know how to politely discuss any topic. Take solace in your army of scouting manuals for comfort cuz that's all you got. PM me and I will give you a mountain of resources and a list of errors you have stated in the past, otherwise move on, you can fight with ED if you want, I am sick of your attitude Flamethrower.

Ok how about your claim that "the CC is part of the CO", that is simply not true, aside from reporting the status of the unit once a year to the CO, and most do not even do that unless it is requested, they have little to do with them. The CC is a unit position, presiding over committee meetings, and has the final say about unit issues. You can verify that in most any BSA manual discussing unit organization. I gave you sources to check on the other issue but apparently you are too lazy to do the research yourself, so you do what you accuse me of by insulting once again, you are not worth the trouble Bobby. You are little more than a flamethrower getting people to jump at your vile bait. There are many other errors I have caught you over the years on other threads, however you seem to exsist in your own little world of denial,you do not dicuss any issue you attack, hardly a very good example of the scouting spirit Bobby.

Gee Bob Do you ever read the paper, magazines, looked at many of the threads posted here. I know you feel that the BSA never err's and that everything that comes from National is as sacred as the Bible, but that would be wrong just like many of your interpretations of policies. You kind of remind me of an old church elder who once led a bible study in my church. He would get angry and belittle anyone who disagreed with him or his interpretations of scripture, sound familiar. This elder thought he was a modern day prophet and it was his job to set everyone on the true path, the pastor wound up taking over at the third session. The point is that no one person is 100% right about any subject, even you Mr. White. Even PBS locally here ran a special about BSA abuses both by volunteers, CO's, and the professionals, you can probably find it at their website.

Bob The CC had retired a month before this happened and the ASM's wife was also the IH, and the COR was her best friend. As far as seeing this through the eyes of youth initially that was correct but you see I am still friends with my old scoutmaster who is now in his 70's and we have discussed this many times over the years. As a former professional I tell you that there are some serious inherent flaws in these procedures. Oh and Bob the CC position is not necessarily connected to the CO except to report unit status to the CO, and in this case the CO cared less about what was going on in the unit since the IH was sleeping with the ASM. While no system is indeed perfect as the press has shown, especially in the last five years or so, abuses of the system are becoming much more frequent and more serious in nature. Hopefully Mazzuca in revamping National will address these issues. As to the ideals of the scout law and compassion none of this was shown in this case or several others I encountered as a DE later on unless I or the SE were asked to become involved in the process.

In my troop as a youth sponsored by then a school PTA an unscrupulous ASM decided he could be a better SM than the current one, who had served for 10 years. That ASM's wife happened to be president of the PTA that year and she helped in the effort by spreading baseless rumors about him among the PTA board, and before he knew it the SM was brought in to answer these allegations, which he firmly denied. The board talked it over and in five minutes announced to the SM that he had been replaced. The SM appealed to the council who told him their hands were tied and it was the CO's descision. The parents of the scouts also appealed to the CO and were ignored. So you see this went by the book technically and shows how the rules can be manipulated to unjustly get rid of a volunteer by people with no virtue. So while Bob may be technically correct with some of his statements about the rules they are far from the reality experienced by many units, and far from being the perfect solution for ALL cases.

Mr Walston Since the COR/CO approves all adult leadership they must also be involved in a leaders removal as they are the only ones authorized to do so under charter. To try to keep this from them would result in even further strained relations between the unit and CO. Additionally the CO is not part of district, the COR is a voting member at council executive meetings.

Eamonn, there is no purpose other than a legal necessity to bypass some silly and poorly thought out rules. They will never be active Venturers, in otherwords they are nothing more than a paper unit for the three months of camp.

Hey Snoring Bear Having any youth program in a church will sooner or later lead to your problem. When anything goes wrong or is broken the first people the church board goes to is the youth pastor or scout leader, this has been my experience serving in both of these positions, it kind of goes with the territory. All you can do is try to get the elders involved in your program, invite them to a couple of dinners or events over the year, do a service project for the church annually that usually gets them to view your group with a more favorable light.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I agree with others here that the commissioner service nationwide is in dismal condition, in my own council there are two district with no commissioners and the ones that do have them almost all of them have only basic training and have little interest in the commissioner college program. The DE's and DC's are constantly complaining that it is nearly impossible to recruit volunteers to this thankless position. In communications with my scouter friends all over the country the situation is not much better in their councils. So with the commissioner service rapidly disappearing why would they be given more responsibilities by National? Oh Bob by the way you may want to recheck your facts and sources, the position of scoutmaster predates that of commissioner. Early on commisioners basically performed the duties of DE's before that position came into exsistence

Per your advice Eamonn I have sent a PM to Bob with the answers to his questions. A DE's job can vary greatly depending on the council they are assigned to and other duties they are assigned in addition to their district duties. While there are common goals the methodology in achieving those goals varies from council to council. For example a friend of mine in the Las Vegas Council told me that raising a lot of money there takes very little effort due in large part to all the big money contributors, especially the casinos. If you are in a small rural council however raising money is a central focus for the DE and takes much more work and time.

Bob you don't even have the slightest idea how long I was a professional scouter and you may think you have special insight but after reading your posts I know that too is very wrong. I love scouting and have been involved on a volunteer and professional level longer than yourself, on a unit, district, and council positions as well as serving on three regional task forces. I was a professional just short of six years and was offered a Field Director position but I left in order to make enough money to support a family. Currently I am on the council Venturing committee as well as working with a crew for seven years. So once again you don't know what you are talking about. I have no grudge against the BSA quite the contrary, I do have a grudge against self proclaimed scouting experts who give out incorrect and distorted facts about BSA policies much like you frequently do in this forum. So if you want to insult me at least get your facts right, which you seldom do.

Bob I think you should leave explaining what a DE's job is to those with firsthand experience in that position. DE's do a lot more fundraising than volunteers realize, not with the units but with the business leaders in the community attending a myriad of Rotary and Kiwana, etc., functions, meeting with the CEO's directly and many other functions. So please don't quote me what you learned secondhand in a training session Mr. White. Those DE's that do not concentrate on money wind up leaving within their first or second year because their FOS results will always fall short, and whether you want to believe it or not the most successful scouting professionals are those who exceed financial goals each year, volunteers can only be expected to do so much as their livelihood does not depend on the results, however the DE's does. This was also told to me by the current Chief Scout Exec. when I worked for him many years ago. You see Bob there is the theory and then there is the reality in running a major financial campaign.

It is not improbable for a CO to ask someone they trust from outside the unit leadership to investigate their unit if something has been reported amiss to them. I hardly think a commisioner is better qualified to run an audit, and in most districts there are not enough commissioners in the first place and thats why these problems occur in the first place. This should probably be a low key audit to start out and see what develops. I do think the CO should inform the SM that this audit is happening and then why. There are too many variables and missing information here however for anyone to offer any real sound advice.

I wonder how the Commish feels about all the 13year old Eagle Scouts who go through Eagle mills and are undeservingly awarded the Eagle without really doing most of the work but are signed off anyway. The eagle award unfortunately does not hold the same prestige it once did because the standards have fallen so drastically in the last 20 years or so. This is what so sad with scouting today, and why IMHO we continue to lose more and more boys each year, when you lower the bar for requirements and allow substandard work to pass on its own merits then why should the boys care about earning the Eagle. I would love to see scouting recapture some of that lost respect and standards that have slipped away over the years, then maybe the Commish's dream would become a reality and scouting would see a badly needed surge of membership growth. As it is now his vision is little more than a pipe dream. If something is easy to obtain or earn without much effort than how can you expect it to be considered an honor or respect it.