BadenP

Rooster, Lets start with the premise that God is good and perfect, I think you believe that is true do you not? So how can a perfect and good God create something evil, for if that is true then God would have to be partly evil, and certainly would not be perfect and no Christian could possibly accept that idea. With our creation we are born in a state of perfection, not of sin as some churches proclaim, but God gave us free will to make choices and once we reach the age of reason we become responsible to remain free of sin and temptation. Since we are not God we can be seduced by sin and temptation and that is when we can choose to do good or evil, so we choose our own path not God. However scripture tells us we can repent when we fail and God will forgive us if we truly are sorry for the evil we have committed. The point is that even the most evil person can become good and vice versa, that is the perfection of God and his love for his creation. Scripture quotes you referred to I think you take out of context for they were written for a very different time, culture,and people. It is kind of like when the supreme court takes a piece of the Constitution written over 230 years ago, such as the right to bear arms and tries to apply to todays society, that long ago the people in this brand new country needed arms for protection, to obtain food, and to defend against hostile forces. In todays society these needs are no longer valid, the same is true with scripture, taking them out of context of the society of 2,000 years ago. You have to be careful about such a literal translation of a scripture and applying it 21st Century society because the application may be very different today. During the Civil War southern preachers used literal interpretations of passages from the Old Testament concerning the keeping slaves to justify slavery in the south, we have to be careful of not doing something similar today. Rooster I respect your passion, peace brother.

Rooster, since you like to use Jesus as your model in being a "Good Christian" remember he accepted all, he ate constantly with pagans, healed anyone without first asking if they believed as he did, he led by example. His death on the cross was the most unselfish act of ultimate love one person can show another, yet another example for us. Jesus did not command his followers to build great churches, develop an elitist group of clergy, or create the myriad of so called Christian denominations that exsist today. Human beings have taken his teachings from scripture throughout history and corrupted them to suit their own selfish needs and desires. That is why you or any other person does not have the right to tell another how to believe, only God has the right to pronounce judgement. God gave us all free will to choose our own path, and Jesus as an example of how to live our lives and treat others. Remember we are all children of God Christian and non Christian alike. Man is imperfect and capable of doing good or bad. The so called inherent stain of original sin against God, a myth created by clergy, can not be washed away by one human being baptizing another. Since God created all life it seems logical he created a way to salvation for all, not just the Christians.

Lisabob To answer your question, my DE is a newbie to scouting but she does meet with every IH in her district reminding them of their responsibilities at least once a year. Only a few of the CO's are marginal and these she does monitor closely. OGE, a DE does not have to be a seasoned veteran to go over the annual contract with each IH which they sign along with their charters each year. This contract, of which the CO gets a copy outlines in concise, easy to understand language what their obligations are to the unit and both the COR and IH sign it. Remember the two main duties of a CO are to provide a meeting place, as well as approving all unit leadership. Our council also does a good job offering COR/IH training which the DE signs them up during the signing of these contracts.

As a former DE myself one of my many required duties was to meet with the IH of each CO in my districts at least once a year to make sure they understood what their obligations were to the units they chartered before the charter was signed. If they were indeed just a paper CO it was my obligation to help the units find a new more stable CO. My current DE told me this is still a requirement for their annual evaluation. So if you have a bunch of CO's uninvolved then that means your DE and council are not doing their jobs. One of the problems with the organization today is that any rag tag group can call themselves a CO. These groups are not a church or any type of formal organization and usually fall apart within a year or two. If your CO is not living up to the charter agreement tell your DE and have them help you find a new one, it's part of their job.

Interesting concept however with the constant changeover of leadership in any unit the CO provides the only stable entity/authority to deal with things such as unfit leadership, embezelling money or equipment, etc. If, for example, a scoutmaster becomes responsible for contracting with the council and then resigns who can the council really legally hold responsible, at least the CO,for the most part, provides a legally established organization. I agree that without the CO scouting membership would take a sharp decline and that is one situation the BSA can not afford to allow to happen.

It would be interesting to see a poll done among atheist and agnostic families as to whether or not dropping the DRP would entice them to allow their kids to join scouting. My personal feeling is that I do not see a mighty surge of these youth coming into scouting to make it worthwhile enough to drop the DRP. On the other hand I do think the LDS is given special treatment and exercises more control over National because scouting is their youth program which I think is an insult to other denominations. LDS scouting has a very different focus and goal then traditional scouting which National allows and I think that is wrong. So this debate can never truly come to a conclusion that would please all.

No Hops you don't answer to individuals but you do answer to the group as a whole. F-Scouter as others have stated acts as a tyrant in his moderation duties and thats wrong. Personally I don't care if he deletes a post of mine but we should be entitled to at least a pm stating why. F-Scouter also goes out of his way to insult others that he has been heavy handed with and that is unscoutlike. An organizations reputation is based on the people running it and when you have one bad apple it can ruin the reputation of that organization. Hops when you get a little older with more life experience you will someday understand what that truly means. I don't care if F-Scouter steps down or not but IMHO if he stays as a moderator this forum will be a little less than it truly can be. I stay in this forum because of the people who contribute so much wisdom about their experiences in scouting and elsewhere. Like packsaddle when I see an injustice I will speak up because I believe its the right thing to do. I know any decision in this forum lies with Terry as it should. As far as this topic is concerned I have said my piece and consider the matter closed. It is my hope that anyone in this forum should be able to express a viewpoint without unjustly being censored by one individual.

Well Frank I think after following the other thread you started about you I think many here feel you do not follow the scout law in your role as moderator. Except for your friend Bob White and Eamonn, to a small degree, there seemed to be little support of your actions in this forum. So without belaboring the point your course of action seems perfectly clear, you should step down as a moderator and that would level the playing field in your interaction with others. I think it is the best solution for all concerned. Now the question remains Frank are you man enough to do it? (This message has been edited by BadenP)

There seems to be a general concensus that F-Scouter is too heavy handed in his moderator position and that he adds insults to the poster he deletes or edits. Beavah may have a valid point when he suggested that F Scouter may not enjoy the position anymore or be burned out, I think that there was never a truer statement. Another poster suggested rotating moderator positions more often, this would indeed reduce the type of burnout F-Scouter may be experiencing. In any case short of profanity or threats to others free discussion should be allowed and encouraged, even the founding fathers cursed, insulted and swore when hammering out the Declaration of Independence, and Thomas Jefferson when he was VP to John Adams published scandulous articles in order to discredit him. I rarely agree with Merlyn for example but I would not want to see his posts deleted, its good to read opposing viewpoints if for no other reason than to give you a tighter focus on your own view. So F-Scouter I would like to see you ease up and not exacerbate the situation even more defending your old cronies in here by deleting the posts of others, and if you truly are burned out be a man about it and resign as moderator.

F-scouter and Bob as usual you both miss the mark again and just use your infamous bile to take shots. F-Scouter it is obvious you can no longer, if you ever could, show proper decorum and should resign as a moderator. Bob you just are a very disagreeable and unlikeable person. If anyone is interested in more details you can pm me since F-Scouter will delete any further posts of mine. Does anyone else in here think F-Scouter should resign as moderator??

Per usual Bob you missed the whole point of the thread, these were not knots tied to donations they were scouter acheivement knots, Woodbadge beads, silver beaver, District award of merit without ever serving a district, Scoutmaster awards given to people who never served in any unit nor did the requirements that all other scouters work. In other words Bobby these two bought their awards without doing anything to earn them, their awards like their uniforms were a sham. Thats what got all the other scouters so upset. DO you understand now Bob as you always throw the rules and regulations in everyones face in this forum, these people and the SE bypassed all of them and that is plainly DISHONEST.

Oh Contrare Karen, these two adults used to go around in their uniforms bragging and showing off all their knots, beads, etc. at roundtable even though they never once helped out in a unit or with a council youth event. The scouters at roundtable used to come to me as the then DE to get them to stop disrupting the roundtable. The couple told me that all the others were jealous of them because they had more awards. I told them their conduct was not very scoutlike, they laughed and said "So What!" Now I don't care how you try to justify this Eamonn but there was no excuse for these two and their behavior. The sad ending to this story was that the wife came down with cancer and passed away two years later, and the husband disappeared from the area. It amazes me the twist and turns we experience in life. I was the only scouter present at the funeral, not even the SE showed up, so I guess the old adage is true "Money can't buy you happiness."

Not bitter F Scouter just reporting the facts in one council, besides isn't that like the kettle calling the pot black. If you want to reward these deep pocket contributors thats fine but there are much better ways than to give away scouter awards that have to be earned by everyone else, the council could create some special awards like my current council does. Don't insult the hard working volunteers and what they do and awards they spend years earning and just give them away for a check, that makes those awards meaningless.

Eamonn When someone is given award after award that most scouters spend a lot of time earning the correct way, when someone has not devoted one minute of their time to helping youth in a unit or on a district, and all they ever do is fill out a check put in the SE's pocket at a dinner, then are given unit leader awards, WB beads that is plain and simply buying scouting whether you like it or not. It is a slap in the face to all those scouters who work their butts off year after year giving up family and vacation time to help out in a scout unit and contribute what they can financially to support the council. You can feel insulted all you want but it is a travesty that because you can write a check for $10,000 - $50,000 all the rules and requirements do not apply to you. If you think this is justified then I think you need to re examine your feelings here.

Firekat, This is not a new trend in scouting but one with a long history, in the late 80's-early 90's there were several married couples who had done this, bought their WB beads without doing any work other than attending the sessions, promoted to run and head the council training committee by the SE, paraded themselves at roundtables like royalty. I was a new DE and one of these couples was in my district. The husband and wife each racked up the District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, WB, Scoutmaster Key, and many others and all they ever did was contribute a lot of money to the council and appoint their close friends to select council and district positions. The SE made sure he signed off on each award without them ever going through normal channels most scouters do. That SE was finally removed and promoted to a higher position but the damage had been done. So yes you can buy scouting in some councils. Sad but true.

I concur with your statement on program Eamonn, the trouble is who decides what is challenging for the youth? Too many adult leaders try to create a program centered around their experiences of the BSA 20-30 years ago, trying to relive their past. When the right balance is discovered between youths interests of today with the essential core scouting skills and leadership we may see a significant increase in membership, but if we don't find it soon it will be too late. ADVERTISING is one of the main key components to this sucess, without it no program can succeed.

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Talking about where a patch was located, come on guys did you SEE the scout uniforms the girls were wearing? I doubt anyone really noticed or cared what a chubby scouter was wearing or how he was wearing it, come back to reality people, lol.

I don't know Old Grey but your argument against Mr Boyces post is weak at best. He is essentially correct about the decline in camping and outdoor interest by both the youth and many adults in todays world. The BSA is pandering to these sedentary interests of todays youth with their refocusing on technology instead of nature. The youths ignorance about nature just proves that as a society we have distanced ourselves even more from the beauty of the outdoors into a techno world. I think thats why one of the main foci of Baden Powells program was to get these city youth outdoors where they could develop woodland and leadership skills. My point is what is wrong with concentrating on the strengths of what made scouting great instead of turning it into some type of virtual reality game.

"Dead cat bounce" about as high as the miniscule rises in two programs, we are far from turning any corner in membership. Inconsistency in program and leadership on both a professional and volunteer level are what is killing scouting, the BSA has lost its true purpose and focus which will lead to its eventual demise or transformation into another type of program entirely.

After purusing seven pages I am surprised that none of you have discovered that svendzoid is just baiting you guys and you are all lapping up his dribble like a bunch of starving fish. This kid hasn't got a chance in hades of getting on an executive board, he knows it and so should you guys. Let this thread die, it is not worth the effort of pursuing this dead horse of a topic.

Bob, I think you are being a little too harsh to Eamonn, if this is a first time then you owe the boy at least a chance to explain why before passing sentence. Maybe the kid is being abused at home, failing in school etc. Usually in my experience when drugs have been at a scout outing there was always more than one person involved. Sometimes it is easier to be black and white without concern for the youth but as scouters we owe the kids more than that. We are not God after all so we should not judge like we are! One mistake does not void out a boys scouting or make him a non scout, come on Bob thats being pretty narrow minded even for you. If this behavior is ever repeated then you can lower the boom. I am sure Bob even you made serious mistakes in your youth, what you do or say to a troubled youth in a situation like this can either turn him around or turn him into a hardcore deliquent.

The purpose of the executive board is to run the business end of the council and to make it as profitable and well organized as possible from the business end of scouting. They help with funding council facilities ,such as camps, tapping into the well to do business community who can provide the big money. That is why in most councils the exec board is made up of well to do professional people with a good network of contacts. Usually they are hand picked by the SE to insure the business remains solvent. That is why very few scouting volunteers are on most boards, since very few of us are that well connected and tend to be too blue collar for this group. It is a board whose members have deep pockets and can drop $5,000 or more a time without batting an eye. As Bob said they have very little to do with program, they do what they do best, raising corporate dollars.

Merging districts and merging councils is a way of life when revenues and membership continue to go down on a nationwide basis as it is currently doing. However the downside of this is that this loss continues to multiply exponentially until there is some well thought out financial recovery plan put into place, otherwise the districts and councils assets are liquidated and disappear into some vortex. Within five years after I left the council as Sr. DE with two very solvent camps and with an excellent growing FOS and other financial campaigns a new SE came in and in those five years managed to put the council into massive debt. He took loans out on both camps and the council office, and the council being unable to repay the loans because the lack of a solid financial campaign under the new administration lost all three assets, and the council was merged with another. So things can change real fast when poor management is allowed to occur. GW, I too read the financials on Bob White's council and agree with you 100%, he grossly exaggerated the truth in his statement.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Man this brings back memories of my troop as a youth. A great scoutmaster was let go because he could not be at every meeting due to work. The new one selected by the PTA, the CO, was the husband of the president of the PTA with no experience in scouting as a youth or an adult. The result was the troop turned into a military unit with him as sole dictator, he did not want any ASM's. All of us senior scouts walked out after a useless appeal to the PTA, none of us finished Eagle as we were disgusted by the whole situation. So Anonymous my two cents is get your boy what he needs to enjoy scouting even if it is another troop, and I bet some of his buddies will join him. Your boy comes first not trying to beat a dead horse of a troop back to life. The time for talk is past now it's time for action before your boy decides to quit or becomes fed up with scouting. You can fight this troop battle another day.