BadenP

First of all I agree with the full uniform ideal. The optional requirement of a uniform in the BSA I am sure comes from the early history of scouting in this country when troops were just starting out, supplies were limited, and our economy was not in great shape. It continued when the BSA was making a concerted effort to start troops in the poor urban city areas and did not want a uniform expense to prevent a boy from joining instead allowing them to earn the uniform piece by piece through odd jobs and fund raisers over time. Nowadays there really is no reason not to be in uniform, and those who can not afford it should be able to do fundraisers to earn it. In addition most councils today have uniform banks where someone in need can go and get what they need. The possession of a complete uniform should never be used as a reason to send a boy home or exclude him from an activity. I know that the poor inner city troop I worked with was proud as they earned each piece of the uniform over time, because they did it themselves. Set the example with the leaders and the boys will rise to the occassion every time. The uniform will then become a source of pride instead of a obligation.

In the reprint of the first Boy Scout Handbook put out by the BSA a few years ago there are illustrations and a short writeup of every handbook up through the 10th edition. You can get it at any scout shop and would be a nice book for your collection. I have it in my collection since an original first edition is so hard to find, all my others are originals.

jkhny, I can understand your anger with professional scouting, when you read some of these things you sometimes want to chuck it all away. But, as a former DE myself I came to two conclusions about Scouting on a council and National level, first there are more good scouting pro's out there than bad who really want to and are doing good things for scouting on a district level. Secondly, the BSA will never be perfect, just like any corporation, there will be scandals as long as it exsists. The question is do we throw the baby out with the bathwater, of course not, people who understand scouting knows what it stands for and will continue to support it. You also mentioned another vital key in your post, what happens on the unit level. That is where it all happens and is the most important aspect of scouting. If the kids are getting a quality program, having fun and learning to be good, decent people that is all that matters. It is on the unit level that the youth are learning the skills that will last a lifetime, not by district or national but by you and all the other scouters out there. That should be your focus. The Mr. Smith's will come and go, but a boy looking up to you for help and as a role model will go on forever. Don't give up on scouting just make it better one boy at a time.

Bob is correct when he says that the SE salary is directly linked to the size of the council and its success in fund raising and program, etc. If the SE is successful and doing a quality job then he should be rewarded, if not he will usually be re assigned to a lesser position, I saw that happen twice when I was a DE years ago. Semper, I may be mistaken, but any financial report you may receive usually does not break down individual salaries but reports a lump sum for all employees in the council.

Scout I do not understand your hostility towards Venturing. For the most part it brings older youth to and back to scouting that have dropped out or never been involved before. Another reason is because it is coed it opens up scouting to females, like Sea Scouts and Career Explorer posts already do, and that helps keep older boys involved. Boy Scouts have been losing numbers steadily for more than twenty years now and we have already discussed the reasons why, not delivering a quality program being the main one. Venturing opens some new horizons for recruiting new and older teens, it never was or is competition for troops. Venture patrols that you talked about in another thread have nothing to do with Venturing, but are part of the boy scout program. It is not an issue of diverting resources but one of creating a program to bring new older teens, male and female, that appeals to the teen culture of today. If Venturing is on the right track it will be successful. Do you feel career Explorer posts and Sea Scouts are a waste of resources as well? Those programs are where most of the older boy scouts move up to if they leave the troop. Instead of taking pot shots at a program you personally dislike try seeing the bigger picture of what these other programs bring to scouting which is an outreach organization for youth.

Scout First of all to answer your questions, Venturing was developed to attract older boys who probably would not be in scouting because of the structure, methods and uniform, and for those who had dropped out of scouting to bring them back to a less formal and interest oriented program. It was not meant to replace the troop at all. The fact that venturing is coed also helps bring in teens who would never have considered scouting before. In my own crew of 50+ almost half are female and of the males only 25% were former scouts. So I see venturing as an alternative program to give teens a way to develop a program catered to their own interests, with similiar ethics and principles as boy scouts but without the formalities and methodology. These teens, for the most part, would never have becomed involved in traditional scouting but enjoy the freedom they have in venturing. This has also been the concensus of the other venturing leaders in my council. The drop in boy scouts, as it has been discussed in other threads, can be attributed to things like poorly run programs, poorly trained leaders, and other factors, not because of the Venturing Program.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I whole heartily agree with Bobs post. This is a very sad day for the entire BSA movement. Hopefully it will be dealt with swiftly and fairly and allow the BSA to move forward in with an even stronger protection committment for youth, and better screening of adults starting with the National office.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I do not know if you Bob or Proud Eagle are involved with Venturing but from your sarcasm of Dana I think not. As a Venturing advisor for many years now the program can be confusing to new leaders because the leaders manual is an all encompassing shell of generalities rather than a set program of methodology like in Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. We leaders are to create the detailed program based on the interests of the crew. National is still deciding what direction they want Venturing to go, it is not supposed to be like the old Explorer program. There are no uniform requirements, the crew can select and design their own or have none at all. A crew can be an high adventure crew or a chess club crew. Most crews are coed and work on the same advancement awards but they are not required or even an essential part of the program, according to Venture leader training. I have taken training on this program locally and at Philmont and these points come from those trainings. Unfortunately because of the largely self creative part of this program many new crews rarely last more than one or two years. Many of the unsuccessful units fail because advisors either try to make the unit an older boy scout troop or they lack the creative ability to design a program to appeal to the interests of older teens, especially a coed group. So in a nutshell Venturing manuals will never be in the same specific detail as in other scouting programs by design, it is the nature of the beast.

I agree with Vicki that sometimes the warfare in these threads get to be a little much. Bob has pushed my buttons in the past, now I ignore him but he does seem to dish out abuse regularly and Backpacker does love to challenge him. Lately, though it seems to me that Backpacker tries to act as a buffer for Bobs attacks on others. However it is time for peace to be restored in the forum so we can talk scout stuff and try to help each other in the true spirit of scouting. OGE, keep up the good work. Bob and Backpacker you both have a lot to contribute here and I hope you will continue to do so in a friendly instead of a hostile way.

Yak I agree that Venturing is going to have to evolve on its own with what works in the field. National is and has been watching to see what the most successful crews are doing and why it is working. My council DE is amazed that our crew is so large and getting bigger each year and is always asking what and why we are so successful. All I can say is that we have great officers who know how to get things done, a great and involved committee, and a group of five associate advisors who are in tune with the teens knowing when to prod them and when to back off. Our program is general enough that it attracts teens with a wide range of interests so we always have several different activites being planned and executed simultaneously. We do outdoor activities - mtn. climbing rafting camping, sports, and a group into crafts and hobbies, so there is always something for everyone. I would be interested what your crew activities are, what has been successful and what has not.

Meryln With your obvious hatred of the BSA that you spew forth every chance you get in this forum I really have no desire to enter into dialog with you. You may be able to bait others in here, but I really don't give a @#*& what you think or have to say about anything related or unrelated to scouting. This is the last communication I will have with you, the bitter,angry, and pitiful person that you are. You need some serious help, and to get a life.

Well the BSA like any organization dependent on public financial support does cook their stats to show they are growing, even if that is not the case. While cubs have grown over the past few years boy scouts have not. The 1 million figure is exaggerated I'm sure with paper units, as discussed elsewhere in this forum. The BSA has never recovered from the severe drop of boy scouts during the Vietnam War era. The reasons for this are many from poorer quality programs, apathy and large turnover from the professional side of scouting. Now in some areas this may seem that it is not the case, but nationally it is. I agree with Wingnut as far as the number of Eagles, and I think most quality scoutmasters will agree that the standards for Eagle have been erroding over the last decade. As a former professional and currently scoutmaster I have seen this firsthand. There are still many SMs who demand a quality effort from the Eagle candidate, unfortunately there are even more who pressed for time run little more than merit badge mills and Eagle factories instead of a true scouting program. Boy Scouts in the beginning through the 1960's numbered in the millions (3to5), now with our larger population we have less than a million, probably more like half that number. We can blame all of the other stuff competing with us or we can look at what we can do better on a unit and national level. I thank God that my troop is active and growing, as many of yours are I am sure, and that is because we have our priorities and programs set correctly. Many others do not and watch their troops fade away and wonder why. One main reason, IMHO, is that councils are closing or merging for economic reasons and giving less and less support to the districts and units than ever before and in many areas this is getting to a crisis level. I will stop here for now but would love to hear your feedback.

What a sad tale. It looks like it will not just be Catholic priests but BSA professionals and scouters who will be dragged through the mud. However if there has been a coverup then its time to clean house otherwise the BSA will lose all credibility much as the Catholic Church has of late. If this is an isolated case then let it be handled locally, if there is any indication that this went up the ladder then the BSA must fully disclose what happened and take appropriate action with all those involved.

Truly what a sad article, and what a sad and tragic society that allows this kind of activity to take place. Maybe Shakespere was right when he wrote, "Kill all the lawyers." It is no wonder that the BSA is having such a hard time surviving having to deal with these ridiculous lawsuits. The ACLU probably won't be happy until the BSA is gone forever. Well Merlyn Leroy I bet you are ecstatic over this news. No one wins here, everyone loses.

I would agree that there is a certain faith based mentality that is growing in our society, especially with the result of our last election,but why is that occuring is the question. No one can deny that we live in a fear based society, fear of terrorism, government interfering in our rights to privacy, the war that may never end. You can blame science all you want for its errors over time, but without that science we would still be living in caves, being erradicated by plagues and disease. I think many people use their newly found faith as a platform to justify their own prejudices and claims of cultural superiority. This has resulted in the world disorder we have today, economically and socially. While I believe in a supreme creator and a grand design, I do think Meryln has made a very valid point, the article quoted has virtually no facts to support its claims. From what I know of the editors of this paper this is a common practice for many of its stories. To my friend Rooster as JD stated you sure do not seem to be welcoming but rather promoting your own personal crusade. Again you state believe as I do or risk an eternity in Hell,again using scripture out of context, not the way to win people over to your side. You should try to the methodology Jesus used, love not threats.

Rooster I do not mean to condemn you, as a fellow Christian we believe pretty much in the same things. What I questioned was your use of scripture to attack others. This forum is not meant to be a pulpit to preach from rather a tool for understanding and tolerance of ideas, whether we agree with them or not. Jesus himself was tolerant even of his enemies who were plotting against him. " They have eyes yet they do not see and ears yet they do not hear.", Jesus knew not all would agree with his message, but he always used scripture to try to enlighten people to the truth not as a weapon against them. I hope you would do the same here.

As a former DE myself I agree with Backpacker 100%. It would be nice to see the pro's put as much effort into programming as they do for numbers. Giving the volunteers and kids even better resources and programs will bring in many more youth than creating ghost units will. Maybe these investigations will put National on notice to straighten up their act or lose financial and community support. I for one am going to keep a close eye on these stories and what is going on in my local council.

Rooster I could quote you scripture after scripture to no avail because you are not formally trained, like most people, in exegetics and theology so you are not properly equipped to debate scripture formally, nor is this the proper forum to do so. Thats why I suggested you speak with a formally trained minister who could help increase your understanding and application of scripture. We could take all your former postings on any issue such as the proper prayers to use in a scout meeting to homosexuality in scouting and I could pick your arguments apart, but to what end because you truly do not understand scripture other than on a very superficial level. Your blantant misuse of scripture to condemn anyone you disagree with proves that point. Here is a scripture just for you, "Judge not lest you be judged." That would be a good starting point for you.

OGE I agree with you and the idea of being arrested for speaking your mind is appalling to me as well. To answer your question, I feel we have changed a lot since the 80's, our society currently lives in a climate of fear that we have not seen since the 50's when we were building bomb shelters in our backyards for fear of Cuba and Russia bombing the USA. Much of our current crisis is due to a non exsistent foreign policy, and a superior attitude which has made our country hated around the world. If Bush really does bring peace between Israel and Palestine then I will sing his praises loud and strong, but I am not holding my breath. Rooster, Rooster, Rooster, what can I say, your simplistic approach to understanding the Word of God is a constant source of amusement to me. Let me remind you, those red letter editions of Jesus quotes are an interpretation of an ancient language Aramaic that Jesus spoke. Many of those red letter translations are poor attempts of deciphering the ancient texts. Even the ancient Greek of the New Testament bears little to no resemblance of modern day Greek. So please don't claim to be speaking for God to me or others because you do not, nor do you really understand the true meaning of God's word by quoting a line of scripture out of context, which you so often do. Every book in the Bible was written for a particular time in history to a specific group of people. While there may be application for us today 2,000+ years later that was not the original intent of the writers. I suggest you talk to an actual ordained minister who went to an accredited seminary and ask them for guidance on how to PROPERLY read and understand the Holy Bible, instead of constantly misinterpreting it as you so often do.

This is very interesting to me for a number of reasons. First the so called Christian Right has been pushing their agenda for years , especially in this last election and now a judge in Philly states they have gone too far in this case and calls them on it. When does free speech become a hate crime? Look at the KKK and Neo Nazi rallies that promote bigotry and hate as their main message and yet they are allowed because of the 1st Amendment, I do not think this is what our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. I never see the Christian Right ever protesting at either of these types of rallies, which are far more dangerous than a gay rights rally, why is that? To Rooster and his supporters your statements are hypocritical because a Christian is supposed to be against all evil in the world, not a select few, and while I do not agree with the gay lifestyle I do not see them as a real threat to our society as I do the KKK or Neo Nazis. So to these Christian protesters all I have to say is that you need to refocus your protests to the truly evil groups in our society, and there are many to choose from. In other words pick your battles more carefully than you have. Rooster, Gods main message to us is to love one another, and in your posts I find it hard to find that Christian love in your replies, you preach a vengeful and dictatorial God which is not in line with the main body of scripture.

Pg 34 of the manual req 4 allows scouting memorabilia to be collected as a hobby, and req 3 talks about theatre so I don't see where you are changing the req's at all. A collection can be anything you want. Theatre req can include doing a production to learn about production of a play. Venturing is creative and not as restrictive as boy scouts. All the training I have attended states and in the leader manual that the advisor can adapt some req's for the crew, but not create a whole new set of reqs.

I too find myself siding with the majority on this thread, the Venturing program has been delivered in a very haphazard and inconsistent manner from National and down through the council exec's. Oge, Backpacker and others are correct when they state that the focus of the program is a bit confusing, especially with Venture patrols and crews. Many crews are not much bigger than a patrol so why is there even such a thing as Venture patrols? We use to call them senior scouts. My take is that National has tried to fill the old Explorer gap with Venturing to the point of even using the same uniform shirt, wait a minute there is not supposed to even be a Venturing uniform, the manual states. So lets get rid of the green shirts entirely and give Venturing a chance to develop as it should, a group of coed teens brought together for fun, service and leadership, not to be a boy scout troop or an old Explorer post.

JW Just a rebuttal to some of your last post. The reason there is so much confusion on the Venturing program is that it has been undergoing many changes since its inception in 1999-2000. There are no uniform sheets because technically there is no uniform in the program. The spruce green shirts were meant mainly for LDS crews who run their program as an older scout troop, since their program is not coed. There is still a lot of confusion in National as to the direction and focus they want Venturing to go. Many council executives and old time scouters still have this peculiar notion that if there is no uniform and the crew is coed it is not really scouting. The LDS crews are not really Venturing because they do not really follow the program. I have seen animosity and jealousy against Venturing crews at some district and council events by scouters who have told the teens they are not really part of the scouting program and that all they do is steal the older boys from the troops. I think National needs to do a much better PR job, once they finally figure out what they want Venturing to be, in defining what place this program has in scouting. If they want the crew to decide on its own uniform then stop publishing photos of crews in the green shirts and gray shorts, knee high socks, etc. and show them portrayed in some of unique uniforms they have selected. Even the advancement awards are modeled to closely with boy scouts,I heard some scouters argue over whether the Ranger award was equal to the Eagle award and they almost came to blows. My feeling is that Venturing needs the same seperation and independence that career Explorer posts enjoy instead of trying to make it a glorified boy scout troop for older teens.

Blade, I agree with your statement, I have never seen it in a uniform guide either but two SMs told me that their DE told them, after checking with National, it was okay for Venture patrols to wear green loops to diffentiate them from the younger scouts, and that uniform guide is going to be updated soon to reflect this change. Apparently in my council the LDS troops have been doing this for a couple of years now. I have to agree with you and Trev that the green loops should be for crews alone.

Proud Eagle The only time green loops are worn on the khaki shirt is for Venture patrols in a troop, not the same as a crew. All Venture crew adults can only wear the spruce green shirt or the uniform the crew decides on, no khaki. Hats for Venture leaders are the two gray ballcap or bucket hat or the scout indiana jones style fedora which is what I wear.