BadenP

Bobby Sorry but the facts do back me up, the most successful sea scout units, those that last more than a few years, have ever growing numbers, and participate in regattas and other events that highlight sea scouting are those located near larger bodies of water, it just makes common sense. Check and see with National for yourself. Yes there are those rare cases of a ship in Kansas or other landlocked areas, most of them don't last too long. As a DE I had one ship located up in the mountains and they had to travel 3-4 hours to the nearest body of water, when the skipper passed away the crew disbanded. You and I could debate this and it still won't change the facts, sea scouting has been shrinking due to a myriad of factors, the expense of maintaing a boat, insurance/fuel costs, the amount of labor, a lack of funding etc. Only those units that are financially backed, are larger ships, near a larger body of water, and have the opportunity to participate in multi ship events seem to survive and thrive. That has been my experience as a DE in a council covering districts on the water and in remote areas, and talking with fellow professionals in other areas of the country with successful and not so successful sea scouting programs. Back to point Bobby, why don't you answer Beavahs questions instead of attacking me and trying to change the focus of this thread. What do you do Bob when a situation comes up that isn't in the book or doesn't exactly follow BSA guidelines even though adequate safeguards are in place? We are waiting for your answers.

Another duck and avoid by BW, this round goes to Beavah. BW your statement about sea scouts is SOOOO wrong. Most successful sea scout ships are in large water, not six foot dingys with a sail out on a puny lake, those units usually don't survive for long. I wonder if you have really taken Sea Scout training or Seabadge cuz it sounds to me you don't know what you speak, or maybe you really are not part of any ship at all and just have a sea scout manual to refer to. My council alone has four ships which are large ex Coast Guard boats and several three masted sailing ships, and several racing sloops. Back on point, why do you continue to avoid Beavahs questions about water activities, maybe cuz the answers are not in any book and rely on firsthand sea scout experience which it sounds like you just don't have. My oh my with all your so called experience these scenarios should be easy to answer.

I don't know Bob but I have no trouble following Beavahs premise but your constant attacks, changing the scenarios, and dodging his questions is also rather obvious that you are avoiding being put on the spot and answering a question plainly that can't be answered with a BSA resource quote. IMHO Beavah looks at situations that occur in the field and you use solely examples from your reading and training which makes me wonder how much actual experience do you have working with youth, your answers seem to indicate very little. Now while I don't always agree with Beavah he often hits the nail on the head with a variety of issues and when you can't find a resource quote to refute him you attack with innuendo and smoke screens. But it does make good entertainment even though it's not very scoutlike. Battle on Bob, lol.

Trev is the closest to being correct, California has been through many mergers over the years and National does initiate the process when a council becomes seriously in debt. The executive board vote is little more than a rubber stamp because the way it comes down is we can either merge your districts with another council or we can just eliminate the council and split up the territory between neighboring councils, losing all former identity. If a council is eliminated all the assets, camps, buildings, etc. are sold off to pay for the debt, any balance left over goes to National, while in a merger the other council acquires the assets and districts that are left after paying the former councils debt. I was involved with this process with my former council and it was a very sad experience to say the least, to watch a camp torn down and sold that had been in the council for over 70 years, and to witness the council buildings being demolished to make way for a strip mall. The council that acquired the territory is about 50 miles away with no ties to the former one, they re districted the former councils territory and there is no longer any evidence that the former council which had been around for over 75 years ever exsisted.

If this happened once or twice I probably would write it off to a glitch but the fact it is a continual problem leads to an internal problem at the council level. However all leaders are also responsible for maintaining their own records. Personally I do not like the computerized advancement report, redundant input and too many extra steps, but thats the way it is , no computer program is perfect. The leaders of my crew and I took our training in another council due to scheduling conflicts and the transfer of information proved to more difficult than it should have been. I took the paperwork of all our trainings into our council office, met with the proper people and got it done. Turns out the person who supposedly handled this was unable to figure out what to do so she just never bothered to record it or ask anyone for help, she was let go after the council executive received many complaints. The SE sent all unit leaders a letter of apology. The main point is be responsible enough to keep your own records and check periodically with your council to make sure your unit and leader training records are up to date.

As far as foreign policy is concerned we have had a president for the last eight years with a dismal almost non exsistent record in that area. The truth of the matter is, as both candidates pointed out, we still are not truly safer from terrorist attacks today than 9/11, a formation of a new agency to coordinate all federal law enforcement agencies still hasn't proven itself after seven years to be better able to handle these kind of situations. The ports are wide open to attack. TSA is little better than a joke in guarding our airports, even early on when it was discovered they had hired illegal aliens in security positions, and how they had failed every security breach test given to them. We do not need eight more years of these same failures. While I don't agree with either candidate on some serious issues there still is a clear correct decision to make. To quote an old song, "Oh the times they are a'changin"

ASM The denigrating I was referring to was the conduct of one or two posters on this forum who seem to get a perverse pleasure in condemning other scouters thinking their opinion or interpretation is the only correct one. In your scenario it would depend on the rule, is it one that would endanger others, if so then you need to let me know, however if it is something like one of the boys was not uniformed properly then I might question your intent. You see it is all a matter of degree.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Gold Winger you are beginning to sound like the little guy in Austin Powers mimmicking his evil leader, Minime to Bob White, lol. The truth is that all scout leaders know the importance of rules and most follow them to the best of their abilities. Once you reach a certain age in life you learn that very few things are true absolutes. Most things are open to change and interpretation, and no one interpretation is the necessarily correct one, especially Bob Whites. This thread proves this point to a certanity. The fact is that scouting has survived a hundred years not because of a myriad of rules but because the program is FUN, the kids feel challenged, experience leadership, and develop a sense of who they are and what they are capable of achieving, period. What kind of boys a unit puts out is far more more important than how the leader interprets the patrol method or who can sit on a BOR. In the greater scheme of scouting these things are trivial, and certain people who harp constantly on others for these things are equally trivial, redundant, and unimportant. We are ALL human beings and because of that we are ALL imperfect. Anyone who volunteers their time to be a scout leader and works hard to create the right environment for our youth to excel in life should be commended and not denigrated by those whose own overinflated egos and self importance overides everything else in their lives.

Elyria I agree that the age thing in Venturing is really poorly thought out and would not be enforceable in a court of law if for example on a venturing event a 22 year old leader slept with a 20 year old venturer, it would not be considered rape or abusing a minor according to civil law. The only recourse the unit would have would be to dismiss the 22 year old leader, since he did nothing illegal, since both are legal adults, except to ignore a policy of the Venturing program. However as Beavah likes to say "da rules is da rules", and as Venturing leaders we agree to carry them out like them or not or whether they make sense or not. This is probably one reason why some leaders refuse to have a coed crew. Maybe one day National will take another look at this particular rule.

Your facts are once again false Bobby,your logic is as faulty as your incorrect interpretation of history and BSA policies. Even when you know you are wrong you will try to make others believe you are correct, lol. A real piece of work.

The only revisionist historian here is BW. Jesus broke every rule of his Jewish culture, healing on the sabbath, working on the sabbath, dining with unclean pagans, associating with Samaritans etc, etc, however he was the son of God so the argument is mute. Martin Luther did not leave the Catholic Church he was excommunicated by it for heresy and yet he felt he was doing his duty as a priest and following the church's rules by pointing out to his bishop actions that violated the doctrines of the Church, such as the selling of indulgences and sacred relics. Even Moses dared to question God and the Israelites were forced to wander the desert for 40 years. So you see Bob OGE was correct in his analogy and you were incorrect in your criticism of him. You see a pattern here? Bottom line, rules are necessary to protect and guide people, programs, and institutions from doing harm to others. Even in our legal system there is the rule of law and the spirit of the law and each has been interpreted and reinterpreted by the courts from local judges to the Supreme Court for centuries. Laws and rules have to be reviewed and reinterpreted over time as to their relevance and legality in present day society. The rules governing the BSA are no exception and have been revised over the last 100 years.

Thank you Kahuna for verifying what I told Bobby about the wreath. It amazes me the amount of misinformation he relates and he creates his own fantasy world of scouting where only he knows the rules. NEI never talked about the wreath in my class either except to say it signified a tie to the National office. I gues we will have to let Bobby have his little fantasy, lol.

Bobby, the only ones who are directly commissioned by the BSA are the professionals and you should know that with all your so called experience. All commissioners and the like are commissioned under the authority of the SE in the local council, hardly the same thing so your now new meaning for the wreath in your last post is also incorrect. Lastly all volunteers in the BSA are commisioned to uphold the policies and rules of the BSA, you should try reading the adult application sometime, Bunky. All professional commissions are signed by the Chief Scout Executive and National staff personally in ink not a photocopy signature, whereas your commission is signed by your council SE and Council commish again hardly the same thing. Your wreath stories are both in error as is your explaination as to who enforces the rules I know it and so do you so stop with all your misinformation already.

Dean you are correct that you can have a donation jar at your popcorn table for those who just want to support scouting and not take the popcorn, that is not banned by the BSA. Scouts have always participated in soliciting funds for charitable and other needy causes since WWI. Selling war bonds, collecting items for those in need, etc., etc. in spite of what BW says.

Geesshhh now BW was the test subject for the new Wood Badge at Gilwell, another lie BW I doubt you would have been asked to test anything by the UK Scouts, let alone Gilwell, you keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. No credibility whatsoever. I really hope the rest of you aren't buying this load of BW BS.

Bobby the only absurd, unmeasurable, and offensive generalizations are your posts in this forum. The IT person was just a hypothetical case, the reality is you can not prove your premise with any references so you resort to insults and innuendos, give it a rest we have heard them all from you. As usual you blow things way out of proportion, when in fact what Lisa said originally has a lot of truth, like it or not Bobby.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Sorry Bob you are once again wrong, first point I was making is that no district has the number of commish's in place to enforce anything. Second the wreath on the position patch only signifies a position tied to council/national, nothing else. It was probably a story you heard at one of your local training sessions that has no basis in fact to make the commish's feel more important. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Yea, thats right make it the commissioners and professionals responsibility. After all there are so MANY commissioners in every district(not), and I am sure the DE and SE have nothing better to do with their time, where did you pick this gem from BW? The truth is the sole responsibility lies with the IH, COR, and unit committee to make sure the rules are followed, the DE and commssioners have no authority to enforce anything on a unit level, unless laws are being broken and even then all the can do is notify the authorities.

I really don't understand how BW continually misreads and misinterpret posts and yet will argue to the death he was right. Anyhow I understand exactly where Lisa and anarchist are coming from, many parents aka volunteers come from the numerous IT industries, for example,and while they can erradicate a virus on your computer they are at a loss in the woods and since many adults do not like to admit they are wrong they give out misinformation with authority instead, (sound like anyone we know, lol, resulting in the kids getting it wrong. Even with a book in hand they can misread or misinterpret the material because it's not their field of expertise, hmmm let me think of an example of this we can all relate to. "Garbage in - garbage out" results in the kids learning the wrong thing and they are the ones who suffer, not the adult leaders.

"Remember that adults learn differently than youth" - Bob White Based on what Bob? Learning styles are the same for all human beings, there are visual learners, auditory learners, hands on learners, and all of us fall into one or more of these categories according to all the experts in the field of teaching and psychology. We tend to keep the same learning style all our lives, again according to the experts, so your premise is false to start with. The methodology of BSA training in many cases follows Kudu's example of treating adults like they were five years old. If you are teaching a teen how to tie knots for example you don't just show them once then hand them a piece of rope and tell them good luck, you make sure they have been able to accomplish task A before you move on to task B. Train the Trainer is the perfect case in adult BSA training where if it is done right has a multifold beneficial effect, but if done wrong has an exponentially disasterous effect for producing incompetent trainers who in turn create incompetent leaders. I have to agree with Kudu after experiencing training at National and four councils that the program has been dumbed down over the years as well as the training. Now there have been those rare exceptions, WoodBadge (the older version) and Powderhorn, both of these provided great hands on experiences and lecture was kept down to the appropriate level to enhance rather than detract from the training. IMHO this is the way training for the BSA should be done for both youth and adults and would result in better trained leaders and youth who develop better outdoor and leadership skills, more excited about scouting, and striving to really EARN that Eagle.

shortridge You must have an older version because in my 2004 & 2005 printings that notation is not there, or maybe you have a newer printing. In either case I agree with you that it is inappropriate.

Gee OGE thank you so much for editing my post here and on another thread to guarantee that Bobby White's feelings were not hurt, after all he treats everyone in this forum with such great respect in his responses, lol! I was not personally attacking him rather pointing out his incorrect use of the word official.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

When are you guys going to learn that Bobby White is never wrong, if it is in the BSA handbook than its the official "American" way, lol. (Editorial comment by OGE, BobWhite has admitted he was wrong on several occassion, so its is not correct to say that Bob White is never wrong) nolesrule is correct that for an "official" method that must come from the US government. All of the methods , BSA, military are "traditions" for that organization and that does not make them official by any definition of the word Bobby. (Just because you may not care for a poster's style does not make them wrong or fodder for attacks, OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Bob Your understanding of the financial industry and its history is not only innaccurate it is simplistic, and full of misinformation Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were created because the many small and medium sized banks that exsisted then could not handle the increasing financial burden of the onslaught of the number of home mortgages as the massive move to suburbia started to take place. This problem became worse after WWII with the returning vets using the GI bill to buy new homes. These little banks were going belly up right and left and needed help. There were more foreclosures going on then are today. So Fannie and Freddie were created as a way to strengthen the banking industry so all of them could compete on an equal playing field for the home mortgage business. This was not a Democratic or Republican issue as you were trying to make it, and Congress at the time also had to approve the creation of these agencies. So Bob White please learn the facts first (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Buffalo If you really are concerned about liability follow Nikes advice and file a tour permit in advance and get it council approved,in spite of what one poster keeps ranting on about it not being required, that should CYA for the most part, and it puts council on the line with you. However you need to learn to trust your boys, thats how they build leadership skills, if you can't trust them for a particular reason discuss it with them. (This message has been edited by BadenP)