Lisabob

As the boys were getting ready to leave for a weekend camping trip last night, one parent said to me "I wish we had scouting for adults!" Some of you have read about how the Venture Patrol in my son's troop has become very adult-laden. I think one of the major reasons why, is that there are a number of adults who WANT to learn this stuff, who did not learn it as a youth. They know the adult who is actually putting together these backpacking trips really knows what he is doing, so they desire to tag along and learn from him. While I salute their enthusiasm, I wish they'd have their own program instead of encroaching upon the youth program. Based on what I've seen though, the type of thing Gern is suggesting could be extremely popular among adult leaders. Basically, it is "scouting for adults." And in the process of teaching those skills, we could also re-emphasize boy leadership and get the adults out of the boys' hair.

Of course, if we had such a list, we'd probably scare away a lot of folks too! I'm not arguing that the SM needs to know it all. But let's be honest. A very thin level of training (like a weekend course) isn't enough to be able to master any outdoor skills to a level where a person can identify - in advance - what the potential risks might be, and evaluate the possible severity of those risks. Inexperienced leaders are prone to making poor decisions when it counts because they don't understand how (or how quickly) things can go wrong. In short, they don't know what they don't know. All the book learning in the world won't remedy that, although it may be helpful. One weekend course, or even one week-long course, won't remedy it either. I shudder at the notion that just because someone survived a weekend of OLS (by itself), that they are necessarily qualified to lead an entire troop of boy scouts on an outing. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

"Why not open up NCS to everyone who's willing to pay the fare and can get off work for a week?" I think this could be a very good idea, but I don't think it truly addresses the root problem. People like me are probably a good example. I spent a lot of time outdoors and camping as a youth, but (for obvious reasons) I was not a boy scout. Most of my camping experience was cabin camping and dining hall meals. Even though I literally lived at the camp where I worked for 10-16 weeks every year, it wasn't the same experience as boy scouts. I love hiking. I love being outdoors. I enjoy working with scouts, especially the 10-12 year olds and those nearing the end of the program (I admit I'm not as good with early teens!) But frankly, I don't have the right skills to be a good ASM. A weekend at OLS won't change that. Neither would a week at NCS. I wouldn't even consider spending a week at NCS, even though I often have fairly unstructured summers (not work-free, but I can set my own schedule). It would be extremely difficult to justify the expense to my family, since it wouldn't be enough to make me a competent ASM anyway. All these outdoor skills take repetition to master. Not one-shot training. What I really think we need, as a society, is a way to encourage more adults to spend more time outside. It isn't via the Boy Scouts that most folks will learn these skills, these days. Most of the hiking I've done has been through a separate club open to anyone who likes hiking. People I know who are expert in Wilderness Survival, or in Climbing, or in Backpacking, or in Canoeing or Kayaking, etc. mostly developed those skills somewhere else too. Colleges are increasingly offering outdoor recreation classes either as Continuing Education (drawing in the local community at relatively low cost) or as part of their Health & Wellness requirements. We need a way to push adults out the door to join these sorts of activities. Then they will develop a level of expertise and comfort that they can also bring to Boy Scouting (Or Venturing, or Sea Scouting). It ain't gonna happen from the BSA level up.

Maybe somewhat off on a tangent, but can somebody explain to me why the bulk of the material in the FB isn't just in the HB to start with? I had thought the point of the HB was to give all the boys a great reference source for how to do scout stuff. Instead, it is fairly superficial, with a lot of the cool details in the FB (which, around here anyway, few people purchase - everybody just buys the HB)

I don't see any point in everybody jumping all over Twitterpated here. Clearly this situation didn't turn out in a great way and he or she is aware of that. Although it could certainly have been handled differently, at this point it is too late to go back and have a do-over. Having been a leader in a pack that disintegrated around me, I know what it feels like to be holding the bag and having a lot of angry parents confronting me. Not fun. The good news is that it will pass, and if you use it as a re-building moment, a much stronger pack can emerge from this unfortunate turn of events. So, moving forward. I like the idea of your pack having a committee decision on an upper limit on den dues. $15/month is too high. (For reference, about 5 years ago as a Webelos den leader, we were operating on about $10 per boy per year!) If you are concerned about control over the den dues money in the future, you might consider charging a one-time den supplies fee as part of your overall pack membership fee. Then the committee can dole out the den dues to the DLs for the year, based either on receipts submitted, or based on formal requests from the DLs in advance of purchases. That gives the committee an opportunity as well to clearly state to the DLs who are requesting den $ that any supplies purchased with that $ belong to the den & pack - NOT to the DL. Whoever is doling out the money to the DLs could also keep a record of what was purchased, so as to request that supplies be returned at the end of the pack's year. Next thing is to figure out how, going forward, you can have better oversight over your DLs, and not just in terms of $ but also in terms of what sort of program they're offering. If you look at the organization of a Cub Pack, you'll see that Den Leaders report to the Cub Master. The CM ought to be able to ask any DL what is going on in their den this month. If it sounds outrageous, the CM should alert the DL to that fact and perhaps also bring it up with the committee. Another way of keeping tabs on what dens are doing is to run a pack newsletter. Ask each den to submit a short summary every month of what they did/what they'll be doing . At least that way you won't be taken by surprise. Another thing you can do is to have a pack membership chair who is in charge of maintaining records. It would be that person's job to deal with who dropped out. DLs should be expected to report any potential drop-outs to the membership chair promptly. You might also need to figure out how to regularly publicize your Committee Chair's contact info for all the parents in the pack, so they know who to call if there's a problem that has them considering leaving. I know a lot of times, parents don't really understand the structure of a cub pack. They may assume the DL is totally in control when, in fact, there are other adult leaders that a parent could turn to outside the den. Another catch-point could be your advancement chair, who should have a roster for each den. If the adv. chair sees that a den with 8 boys only has 5 earning patches/advancing/etc. at the last couple of pack meetings, then the adv. chair might inquire about the status of the other 3 boys in the den. This could help you catch drop-outs more quickly, and potentially, nip a problem in the bud. Yet another thing to consider is what makes for a good den program. Field trips are fun. But for the little guys, local activities are probably best and are usually either free or very low cost. Think trips to the fire station, the public library, the police station, etc. As the boys get older they may be ready for more, but 2 costly field trips every month is too much - hardly gives you time to run a regular den program, and as you know, it may get expensive. Occasional special outings like a sleepover at a local museum or a trip to see a play or something are ok, but they should be special and not the norm. You might find that the Program Helps booklet issued by the BSA every year (and probably available, either free or at low cost, in your local scout shop) gives your DLs some good ideas about how to run monthly den meetings that don't cost a fortune. Don't forget, too, that a lot of times, the boys are pleased as punch with simple activities. It tends to be the adults who start dreaming big and can't be satisfied with "little" stuff that the kids would most likely enjoy just as much. And finally - if your CO has decided that this woman cannot serve as a leader, then that's final (for your pack). She won't be back. She might choose to join a new pack and they might be foolish enough to give her a power position, but if that happens it is not your problem. If another pack calls you to ask about her, be honest but fair in your comments. If you haven't done so already, make sure your district staff (Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner, District Executive) all know she was a real problem in your pack so that they can keep an eye out for her in other packs. That's really all you can do. -------- Twitter, I've been in situations not too different from what you describe. The unforunate bit is that you will lose some more families before this is over. Some will simply decide they haven't got the time, money, or patience to wait and see whether things get better. But others will give you the benefit of the doubt, and happily, you can also recruit new boys next year! You might want to focus on your incoming Tiger and Wolf scouts next year (where you typically get a lot of new recruits) and make sure they have a great program so that you can rebuild the base for your pack. I was amazed at how quickly we could turn around a pack that almost died due to adult misbehaviors. Within about 2 years, it became one of the fastest-growing, most vibrant packs in the district. That can certainly happen for you too, especially since the problems occurred mostly within just one den for you. Good luck, and let us know how things turn out. Yours in Scouting, Lisa

My son's troop marches in the town's parade and participates in the ceremonies honoring vets at the local cemeteries. Many of the local cub packs do the same. Check with the American Legion or VFW to see what they have planned in your area, and ask how you can help. (Flag day is coming up too. Might want to think about ways to coordinate that one as well. We typically help the Elks and Legion with a flag ceremony and flag retirement.)

Sounds like fun but...why on earth did they have to name it rogain? I'm having a hard time imagining selling this activity to a bunch of boys (or men) who would be sniggering uncontrollably every time the name was mentioned. Might as well have named it Viagra'ing!

Yes I completely agree on all points, Beavah.

Stosh, I agree that family programming "chasing after" societal changes isn't likely to work. I suspect, though, that the purpose of a lot of these family activities at the cub scout (Not Boy Scout!) level is not that closely related to changes in the traditional family. Cub scout camping, by definition, is FAMILY camping, regardless of who is in the family. That said, I think the point made by many here is, why create barriers to family participation where none really need to exist? With regard to the #s - you are correct that the census study I cited didn't include remarried & step-parent issues. (It did specifically segregate out situations where the child lived with one custodial parent for most of the week. Those were classified in the single parent household category.) And conventionally accepted figures for divorce rates are that about half of marriages end in divorce. Of course that is irrespective of whether the couple had children prior to divorcing. So I would be prepared to believe that the percentage of children living with both married biological parents is probably a lot lower than 67.8%. But 7% still seems extremely low. If you happen to have a link to that study I would love to see it. I'm really curious to find out more about how they arrived at that number.

That's what I was told by the SM for my son's Jambo troop. He's typically well-informed. However, I don't have any "official" verification.

My son's cub scout den leader used to schedule Dad & Lad camp outs (never mind that they were Tigers, Wolves, and Bears and should not have been doing den camping anyway!) Well it turns out my husband seriously dislikes sleeping in a tent. So I went instead. The first time, you'd have thought someone peed in the DL's lemonade! She got over it though. Maybe because none of the other DADS seemed to mind and the boys barely even noticed (and certainly didn't care). Maybe because I'm not a real girly-girl, afraid of bugs & dirt, over-the-top-mothery type. Maybe because the DL figured out I'm stubborn and not afraid to stand up to idiots. I don't know, but to answer Neil's question, this was not ancient history - happened in the first half of this decade. Our district and council sponsor similar Mom & Me, Dad & Lad events but (as far as I know) do not actively restrict parents of the other gender from attending with their child. It is a suggestion I guess, rather than a rule. On the other hand, I do know of families who left the program because the boy felt ostracized by these sorts of events. What a shame. Imagine how scouting might have helped those boys and provided them with precisely the sorts of male role models some of them are missing in their daily lives, but all that was lost to the boy because of one event that made the boy feel unwelcome. Is it so hard to come up with a name that doesn't appear to exclude a lot of kids? I submit that if we're serious about the point of scouting (building young men of character, anyone?) then we shouldn't embrace policies that drive away boys from families that deviate from our ideas of "tradition." Stosh, I'm curious about your statistics. Do you know where the #s you cited came from? Based on a 2007 Census report (available here http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/marital_status_living_arrangements/012437.html): "According to Families and Living Arrangements: 2007, some 73.7 million children younger than 18 lived in the United States. Of these, 67.8 percent lived with married parents, 2.9 percent lived with two unmarried parents, 25.8 percent lived with one parent and 3.5 percent lived with no parent present." While it is true that the survey does not differentiate between biological and adopted children, it is unlikely that the vast majority of those 67.8% of children living with married parents are adopted.

We have a couple of adults who bellow and shout all the time. These are often the same adults who don't get the idea of boy-led at all. They like to be in charge all the time. The scouts have learned to ignore them. We have a few others who are typically pretty level-headed. On the (rare) occasion when they raise their voices, the scouts pay attention. And finally, we have at least one who, according to my son, could do with a little more heat because he allows the boys to walk all over him. Based on what you wrote, I doubt you are in the first category. If you are in the second or third, then unless you became a ranting lunatic (and that's not what it sounds like to me) it probably is not a big deal, although I could understand why you might have felt bad about it. If anything though, the scout owes you an apology for being obnoxious. I bet when he behaves that way at home, he gets what he wants. Probably a shock to him that it didn't turn out that way this time. ETA: THere are a couple of boys who really irk me. Basically what I don't tolerate well at all, is manipulative, bullying behavior and bald-faced lying.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Daddy-O says: "I dont know, but I would bet that your Eagles are much better contributors and supporters later in life (no pun intended). Why would some aged out star scout give money, time or encourage others to join? " ----------- Why? Maybe because scouting is not all about the rank. It is about the experiences. I've known plenty of folks who never earned Eagle, but who have very fond memories of their time as scouts. Fun, adventure, friendship, overcoming challenges, new skills, these are the things that make lasting impressions in people's lives. You don't need to make it to Eagle to experience those. My son has been in scouting for about 8 years (cubs & boy scouts). In that time, I've been amazed at how receptive people are to scouting. Whenever he has done any fundraising or community outreach through scouting, inevitably people he has never even met before will say to him "Oh yes, I was a scout too! I remember when..." and then most of the time they'll offer what support they can give. Very few say "Oh I was an Eagle!" No, they say "I was a SCOUT." Not to belittle the accomplishment of earning Eagle, but that is not what Scouting is about.

It is only an extreme change because you've apparently decided to make it one. Parental attitude about this sort of thing is the single biggest influence I have seen, in terms of which boys stick with it and which ones don't. Your son is "fading out" of scouting because it appears pretty plain that you want him to. Makes your life simpler, I suppose. Well that's ok. But please. Don't blame it on scouting.

Does show how the polarization of politics leads to da multiplication of fools. We need a majority Moderate party of loyal, patriotic Americans. Thanks for this, Beavah. The first sentence gave me a good laugh. Regarding the second sentence, apparently we call those Democrats - just ask Arlen Specter! (Another win for the home team!)

As I mentioned to Eagle007 in a separate message, maybe he should take into account that his council camp (Tiak) was hit pretty hard by Katrina back in 2005. Since then, according to some stuff I saw on Pine Burr Area Council's web page, the camp has had some major rebuilding projects - 3 new pavilions and adding air conditioning to the dining hall. I don't know what else but I bet there was more than that. I hope his camp is recovering well from the destruction, but all that stuff costs money and it has to come from somewhere. ETA: By the way I stumbled across this article about cleaning up the camp and thought it was worth sharing. (DRAT - let me try posting that link again) http://www.philstaff.com/?p=21 (This message has been edited by lisabob)

add insurance to scoutldr's list. If they haven't increased fees since you were a scout (how long are we talking here?) then there is also a good chance that they've been coasting for a number of years with substantial operating deficits being picked up by other parts of the council budget. In a tough economic year, there might not be enough cushion in other parts of the budget to sustain this. I'm curious, what camp is this?

$225 a week is dirt cheap. No way a camp can pay for the full cost of the program on that price. I have a hard time imagining that "the council has doubled the price of summer camp this year" because this would mean that a week of scout camp cost $112.50 last year. Are you sure about that? If it is really correct that last year the camp was charging 110-120/boy then maybe this helps explain the dramatic drop-off in enrollment. You get what you pay for and there is no way to run a decent program on that amount of money. Maybe people are voting with their feet this year because the camp ran a horrible program to try to cut costs last year. Let's put things in perspective. We don't have a home council boy scout summer camp so our guys attend a different BSA camp every year. In recent memory they've been to BSA camps in MI, OH, IN, GA, NC, and (this year) NY. Not a single one of those was under $200. This year's camp in NY charges $325/boy. That doesn't even include the cost of travel to/from the camps that are further away. Music camps, sports camps, Y camps, and church camps in our area cost $400-$700/week. Horse camps are even more expensive. Welcome to reality. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

I heard tonight that a new supplex shirt minus the bellows pockets (and minus the sleeve pocket) will be due out sometime soon. My son's jambo troop leader asked us parents to hold off buying any new uniform pieces unless absolutely necessary (and then he advocated borrowing or buying used/cheap old stuff) because the council contingent wants all the boys to have the exact same stuff - except it keeps changing! So they're asking us to wait until just before jambo to get the latest run all at the same time.

Good question. I think a lot of young men are a bit torn. They know what other people want them to do, and they know it would mean a lot to those other people for them to finish. They love/respect/don't want to let down those important people in their lives. I know one boy who is almost 16 and his whole image of himself has been that he'd be an Eagle because his dad/uncles/male cousins were also Eagles. He sure doesn't appear to enjoy scouting very much, but ever since I met this guy at the age of about 6 getting Eagle has been just about all they ever talk about. (For the longest time his dad would boast about having been the youngest Eagle ever in his council and how his boy would earn Eagle by age 12 for sure.) Hey, no pressure there! I wonder if this boy can even imagine himself as an adult who did not make Eagle, although he is usually miserable - and miserable to be with, too - when he is at a scout event. But all that external pressure aside, maybe some of those young men also really don't want to do what's necessary to get to Eagle, whatever the reason. Once you get past childhood, most people need a pretty strong internal motivation - not just an external one - to overcome significant hurdles in their lives. Recognizing that you lack that internal motivation and then actively choosing not to pursue something in the face of perceived or real external pressure can be really unpleasant and even scary (will they still love/respect/care for me if I don't do this thing?). So people drag their feet to avoid confronting difficult choices. Procrastination can be a painless (and self-delusional) option for a really long time, until all of a sudden it is too late to do anything about it. And anyway, choosing NOT to act is really a very effective decision-making strategy too (heck, results are 100% guaranteed! no guesswork involved!), even though we might not recognize it as such when we're doing it.

Yesterday the Washington DC city council passed a resolution recognizing gay marriages performed in other states, by a vote of 12-1. The one dissenting vote came from Marion Barry (you remember him from the 80s?) and even he sounds uncertain about his opposition. It isn't official yet (Congress has to approve DC laws) but it is just another example of what Trev is discussing. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103815724

Ouch! Sorry to hear about the leg, Kittle. But hurrah for your son. Mine is going too and our cost is just about the same as yours.

Well that confirms it. You're just odd, Ed. But I am also willing to bet you don't force your particular sleep habits on other people by keeping them up to all hours of the night. This summer our troop will attend a camp that is about a 600 mile drive from home. We're having a hard time figuring out the transportation (not enough seats for the ride back). A parent who has to work that week is bummed he can't go to camp with the troop, so he suggested he'd make the 10+hour drive up to camp on Friday after work, check the place out Saturday morning, and then drive back with the troop on Saturday & Sunday. A couple of hours sleep in there at best. I could not help it. I looked at him and said "no way would I let any kid into your car under those conditions." He was a little taken aback, I think. Nice guy, very dependable, generally good judgment, just hadn't thought it through. I'm with Brent on this. When we leaders take responsibility for other people's kids, we need to make sure we're not compromising our ability - or other leaders' abilities - to make sound judgments about safety.

Yes. It doesn't matter if they come from an affiliated pack or from across the country. If they're registered in the BSA system, there is no need for a new registration when the cross from cub scouts to boy scouts.

We always do a transfer. The council registration fee registers the boy with the BSA for the year. He is not new to scouting when he transitions from one phase of the BSA program to the other. As you say, it is common in our area for packs to recharter prior to cross-overs. So most Webelos II are rechartered in the pack. The transfer switches them to the troop. I've sat next to our council registrar as she changes the cross-overs from webelos to boy scouts in scoutnet. It's just a simple thing to switch unit/program affiliation. As you probably know, unit dues are a different matter than BSA registration fees. Some packs and troops in our area charge a pro-rated amount, others don't. When questions arise, we direct parents back to the pack they came from, for clarification on that pack's policies. Since the troop's leaders do not run the pack, we don't get involved in telling any of the local packs how to structure their membership fees. Hope this helps.