Lisabob

ScoutNut, I understand where you're coming from re: BALOO, but it isn't really intro to camping. It is intro to putting on an outdoor program, with a little info about gear thrown in. If you really have minimal camping experience or woods skills, when you leave BALOO at the end of the day, nothing much is going to have changed there. It is not designed for that. OWL is a little more about actual skill, but few leaders take it before becoming Webelos leaders. We do need something for the hypothetical new Wolf Den Leader to learn to build fires, pick a good camp site, cook some outdoor meals, use a pocket knife safely, tie a few knots, etc. Think if you had 3 years to train cub leaders in their outdoor skills before they hit Webelos! We'd have a much more outdoor-oriented Webelos den program in a lot of packs, I think, which might translate into better retention and more boys being better prepared for boy scouting. This is a real opportunity. So I think an intro to camping weekend for cub leaders/parents (with kids invited) would be great fun, and a big success. Local boy scouts could assist with instruction and/or run a separate program for part of the day for the kids, while moms & dads practice their outdoor skills. Other things I wish would happen: Set up a few district coordinators for Tiger Cubs. Maybe even someone who will help a pack by running a couple of Tiger den meetings to teach new families what to do. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for many packs is setting up a functional Tiger den. They get all these really excited little boys and their parents (who usually know little or nothing about cub scouts yet), but nobody is in charge and things flounder for a couple of months. By that time the pack has lost half the new recruits and they aren't going to come back. Get basic leader trainings scheduled early and often. Many areas wait til November. I understand why, but that's too late for people who've been den leaders for 2-3 months already. Run a Cub Fun Day in early Fall. Something packs can use as a recruiting tool (have membership material available at the event), where packs and/or families can just show up and participate in fun activities. Our district did this for several years and it works. Team up with local fire depts, rescue crews, police, or military/reserves to have a day where kids can climb over, under, in and out of their vehicles. Have membership materials on hand. I've never met a cub scout (or prospective cub scout) who didn't think this stuff was cool. Tie it in with some sort of veterans recognition, etc., and bingo, you have a potentially great district event that is also low-maintenance. Help Cub Packs find community service projects that are high visibility and age-appropriate. That can be challenging sometimes for the little guys. Ready-made service opportunities where all they have to do is show up, are good. (Scouting for food, community park clean-ups, etc.)

Two years is a long time. I have seen a number of scouts lose interest around age 14-15, but come back at late 16/early 17. Maybe the added maturity on his end will turn out to be a big benefit if he becomes active again, going forward. (In which case, while of course he has to meet the requirements as written, I hope you won't hold his intervening absence against him.)

Oh it is about double or triple the cost of a week at scout camp, depending on the camp in question. I'm not knocking scout camp (please don't anybody start that stuff), but he gets very different things from Y camp, and they're also good things so I'm willing to help him foot that bill. Among other things, his scout troop changes camps every year, while he's been attending the same Y camp for several years, hopes eventually to staff there when he is old enough, and he has a sense of returning "home" there. Yes, they probably do have better facilities than a lot of scout camps, by the way.

Try doing a google search for cub scout resident camp and local council names. Or go to home pages for nearby councils and see if they have a "camping" section. Usually there will be info about cub scout/webelos camp there. A quick search on google turned up the following cub resident camps in AL. I don't know the state at all so maybe these aren't that close to you, but then again, maybe they are. Camp Horne (Black Warrior Council) has a 3 day Cub resident camp. Download their leader guide here: http://www.blackwarriorcouncil.com/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=27062&orgkey=2295 Camp Lumpkin (Chattahoochee Council) runs cub resident camp. OK, this council is half in Georgia and half in Alabama, and I believe the actual camp is in GA, but...maybe it works for you. Camp Alaflo (Alabama-Florida Council) runs cub resident camp. Another one of those cross-border councils! Their website isn't the best in terms of finding things, but here's a flyer: http://www.alflcouncilbsa.org/news/CubResidentCamp2009.pdf Camp Sequoyah (Greater Alabama Council) is running a cub resident camp but I can't find a flyer. You'd have to call the council office for info. They even seem to have a toll free phone #, 1-888-490-8955. Here's their website: http://www.1bsa.org/default.asp?ID=2 Hope that helps!

OK I admit it. I am horrible with knots. Just not good at all. A person can show me and show me but until I do it myself about 1000 times (which means getting it wrong about 500 times) I just don't have much of a chance. It isn't a matter of being unable to pay attention or follow directions. It is more a spatial skills thing (never been one of my strengths). And it is a lot worse when someone is facing opposite me so that I have to reverse what they're doing. I own a bunch of knot books intended for knot dummies like myself (and a few that are BSA products). Many are not that helpful because it seems like something's missing between the (static) picture-stages they show. I do like some of the animated sites on the web. It helps I can replay them a million times while I try to figure out what I'm doing. So I can sympathize with those kids! And I'm a little in awe of those of you who can see it tied once, and then go do it.

Last year my son's troop went to Camp Manatoc in northeast OH. They had dropped their COPE course. When asked, they gave the reasons shortridge listed. Some of our older guys were bummed. Does COPE-type stuff get boring? Maybe. On the other hand, my son spent a week at Y Camp last year doing a "thrills & chills" program that was pretty similar to a typical BSA COPE program. He liked it so much he is going back to do it again this year, instead of going to scout camp for the week.

Just a thought: Scouting is a world wide movement, yet I believe that in many countries, "uniform" consists of a necker. Do they have less character than American scouts? Really? Here in the states - My son would probably still wear the switch backs. He would probably burn the shirt with joy. In the last 2 years I've been amazed to see how happily he wears the newer style pants. They look good, they're functional, they can be worn to non-scout events with a T shirt and not look dorky. They're expensive (honestly, at $50, they are the most expensive pair of pants he owns by a long shot). But at least he wears them. Make a functional shirt without all the doo-dads and maybe kids would wear that happily too. The move to the belt that's built in to the scout pants and doesn't look dorky was also good. My son seriously disliked the old style belt, just another reason for him to not want to wear the old style uniform pants/shorts. Get rid of the socks. Seriously. I know some folks will try, but the correlation between socks and character is even more tenuous than between uniforming in general, and character.

OK this might not be ground you want to tread on, but I have to ask. Aren't there some pretty big differences between Protestant denominations? Aren't you going to have just as many problems if you say "all Catholics go to St. __'s and all Protestants go to the Presbyterian Church" ?? Even supposing they have services nearby and at the same time (logistical issues), what are you going to do with the various "flavors" of Protestantism? What if a non-Christian boy (with a religious bent) joins your troop? Will you be making another stop at the Temple, Mosque, etc., too? Heck, you could spend the entire weekend fulfilling various troop members' religious obligations. I kinda think you're opening a can of worms here. Perhaps the better policy would be that if the troop cannot be home in time for individual families to make it to their individually-preferred services, then the parents can come pick up their darlings from where ever you are camping, a little bit early.

Most councils in my area offer cub resident camp and day camp. Many also offer a special resident camp session for Webelos only. Most are 3 days/2 nights. As posted elsewhere, there are some 4 day/3 night ones, and very few longer ones for cubs. Parents often attend with the kids. Some even allow siblings.

In my area, LDS is not real big. However, they do have their own units. These tend to be quite small, given the size of the population they have to draw from. Some of the local Catholic churches sponsor their own units too. While not all boys in those units belong to the Church, most usually do. I'm told leader selection in Catholic units is also more rigorous and it can be hard for a non-member adult to become a registered leader with them. There used to be a Venturing Crew for people with severe developmental disabilities. I'm told it was basically a way for the parents of these young adults to spend a little time together. Not so unlike a lot of crews, it was more a clique of friends than anything else. Personally, I would far rather see groups of people mix and learn about each other. In cub scouting, there are lots of opportunities to broaden kids' horizons. For example the local elementary schools had an international festival each year and we incorporated that into our cub year. We did a wide variety of cultural activities connected to that. We had local high school foreign exchange students visit too. There are also some beltloops (heritages, language & culture, and geography) to draw on. And most kids like to know about other places and have a chance to ask questions. Later, at the boy scout level, I think there may be fewer "organized" opportunities like that, but making friends across ethnic or linguistic or religious lines is a powerful thing. When boys discover that it doesn't matter where you're from, a camp fire is still a camp fire, they can really open up and learn a lot from each other. So yeah, I'm for scouting bringing kids together, not dividing them based on their backgrounds. I am sort of surprised about the girl scout troop you describe.

Thanks wahooker. Gotta say, I'm not terribly impressed with about half of them. Really? Belt loops for manners? For basic literacy? Sigh. Will have to wait and see what the requirements are I guess.

Trainerlady, For those of us without the insignia guide, would you post a list of the new loops/pins? Thanks.

Chicago Area Council (Owasippe Scout Reservation is actually in W. Michigan) offers a 5 day Webelos resident camp, see flyer here: http://chicagobsa.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?id=49156 Upon looking around I also found several 4 day/3 night webelos resident camps within driving distance. I know 4 days isn't that much better than 3, but maybe a change of location would make it more exciting too: Black Swamp Area Council in NW OH . Registration form here (Webelos resident camp is on 2nd page): http://www.bsac449-bsa.org/assets/pdfs/Forms/Smoke-Signals-ad-Cub-Camp-forms-2009.pdf Heart of Ohio Council , flyer is here: http://pack435.net/My_Homepage_Files/Download/2009_Webelos_Forms.pdf Great Trails Council (Cleveland/Akron OH area), flyer here: http://pack3508.org/documents/2009_webelos_camp.pdf In Michigan: Lake Huron Area Council, flyer here: http://old.lhacbsa.org/Forms/CS%20Resident%20Camp%202009.pdf Clinton Valley Council (Oakland & Macomb counties), flyer here: http://www.cvc-bsa.org/camping/cubCamp/residentCamp.html Detroit Area Council, flyer here: http://www.bsadetroit.org/summer-camp/summer-camp-web-camp.shtm Gerald R. Ford Council (Western MI), flyer here: http://www.bsagrfc.org/documents/campadven09webreg.pdf This isn't an exhaustive search by any means, just some councils I was familiar with already. Good luck with your search!

Hey, welcome to another 'bob! I used to be a Bobwhite... C-19-03

Hello, I can help you with some of this. BALOO is "basic adult leader outdoor orientation" and is a training meant for cub leaders so that they can do outdoor activities with their cub pack. NYLT is "national youth leader training" and is intended for boys who are 1st cl/higher in your troop. Boys who will be taking on significant leadership positions like Patrol Leader or SPL would especially benefit, but there's a good argument to be made that the more of your senior boys have this training (regardless of their POR), the more likely it is the troop will have a deep pool of good youth leaders to choose from. Scout University is a supplemental 1 day program put on, usually annually, in many councils. You can pick the classes you are interested in attending. It often includes sessions on specific scout skills, on skits/story telling, on where to go camping in the local area, etc. It probably includes classes for cub leaders, troop leaders, and venturing leaders. I don't know what philmont training entails. A couple of others you probably are aware of: Youth Protection Training, Climb On Safely/Trek Safely (and there are some others like these I think). These can all be done online through the BSA's online learning center so you might have already done them. In my area, a Scoutmaster/Asst Scoutmaster is considered fully trained when they have three things: Youth Protection, SM/ASM Basic, and Intro to Outdoor Leadership Skills (IOLS or OLS) which is typically a weekend course, very hands-on, that is supposed to focus on how to teach scout skills to kids. (It often ends up being a course on the scout skills, themselves, rather than on how to teach them.) Without those three, ASMs/SMs are not eligible for Wood Badge in my area. Troop committee members are expected to have Youth Protection and Troop Committee Challenge training in order to attend Wood Badge. (Many troops will encourage committee members to also have OLS but it isn't a requirement) Hope this helps!

Nope, the 6/7 year old isn't going to make it into boy scouts until he meets the minimum age requirement, no matter how many grades he skips. But we also have had cubs who had skipped grades and who skipped a cub year too. So for example we had a boy who joined a troop at barely age 10, who skipped 4th grade. He (his mother) are serious over achiever types and this boy went from a bear to a second-year webelos. He did all of the webelos program in the 10 months from June at the end of his 3rd grade year to March of his 5th grade year, and then crossed over with the rest of his Webelos II den. Worked for them at the time. It might not have worked for a lot of other kids though. In that situation I think the potential drawback is less noticeable at the cub level, and a lot more noticeable at the boy scout level (early on). The leap in expected maturity and independence from cubs to boy scouts is tough enough on many kids, and probably harder still if they're on the really young end.

Happened to be looking around on ebay the other day. I didn't see very many pairs of the newer style scout pants (switchbacks, of either version). They've been around for a few years now so I guess the relative scarcity of them on ebay might be considered to be a sign that kids who get them are wearing them right out. (I know that's the case for my kid!) That's good news on one front. Of course it is less good news for people who are looking for a uniform at lower price and don't want the "dorky" older style pants (I see there are still plenty of the older style pants/shorts to be had on ebay). It would be kind of sad if the difference between the two styles of pants became a status symbol or indicator of the relative economic standing of a boy's family within a troop.

I think a lot of times, people take it very personally when a boy leaves "their" unit. Either they view it as a form of personal disloyalty (how could he do that after all I've done for him) or they view it as "raiding" by another unit (this is my turf, how dare they). In either case, while the gut level emotion is understandable, it is also misplaced. The unit is not, or should not be, a reflection or extension of any one adult or group of adults. It is not "my" unit. If it is viewed as such, that's a warning sign in and of itself that things may be veering away from true north, maybe with more adult involvement that boy ownership of the program. Also, people vote with their feet. If just a couple of boys are leaving, that's one thing. Maybe they found that they don't quite fit into the culture of the unit and would be happier else where. If a large number/percentage of boys are leaving, that might cause one to examine the reasons why? Perhaps there's something about the program that is repelling them (and/or their parents)? Recourse, to me, suggests that you're looking for a way to make the boys STOP talking to their friends about their new unit. If that's what you meant in your initial post Stosh, well, sorry. Ain't gonna happen and you can't make it happen. What's the back story? (Edited for typos)(This message has been edited by lisabob)

That troop you saw at summer camp could have been my son's troop. They are a "full uniform" troop, down to the socks and up to the berets. We get boys from all sorts of cub packs, most of whom have a "shirts only" expectation, and many of the boys individually complain of the dork factor or "gayness" of the uniform (mainly the shirts, which makes me laugh because that's the one part most units expect!). But the troop culture is such that the new guys just know that when they join this troop, they will be wearing the full uniform. Our older guys do set that example (and, to be honest, pressured the younger guys to conform). Getting your troop culture to reflect that is difficult if you have no buy in from any of your boys. To start to change that, you need at least one core group who are willing to buck the existing culture. That might be your older guys like your SPL & his leadership group. Or it might be a group of younger guys who have a strong bond and want to sort of set themselves apart/challenge the rest of the troop. You could also have an "honor patrol" contest where uniforming is one of the criteria. But again, this is going to require some buy in from at least some of the boys in order to make any difference. End of the day - I support uniforming. But it is only one of the eight methods of scouting and, in my eyes, not necessarily the method with the most pay back. I guess you have to ask how your troop is doing with the other methods, and in the big picture, to what extent is the uniforming method a priority for the troop right now?

Beavah says: "ASM206, I think you and the rest of the scouters in your program just need to decide on what your vision is for your program. I think it's fine to have a friendly acknowledgment that he's not an active member anymore but is a good friend and alumnus, and to expect that only your active members are participatin' in the advancement program." That might be fine indeed, as long as you are not continuing to carry him on your roster and he's aware of it. But if he is still a registered, dues-paying member of the troop then he has every reason to believe he's more than just an alumn and friend of the troop - he is a member. Because he is a member of the troop in good standing, I don't think you'll find a lot of support in the BSA material for telling him he hasn't been active enough lately, especially since he has apparently been plenty active in the past and also had the courtesy to let your SM know why he is less available these days. In similar threads at various times, people have summed up all the things a scout needs to do in order to make it to Eagle - there's a great deal of "activity" involved. The question is merely whether it is compacted into a shorter time frame,or stretched out over a longer one. Either way though, by definition, a boy who is on the doorstep of being an Eagle scout has been pretty active in his troop over the years, or he wouldn't have made it that far. I kind of like to think about it this way, I guess. I do think it would be reasonable for the SM to have a friendly chat with him, where the SM might ask the boy to make a little time to serve as an active role model for the younger fellows in the troop. Maybe he can't make every event, but maybe together, he and the SM can pick out a few times where the SM would especially appreciate having him there. Maybe he can serve as a Junior Asst. Scoutmaster and do some mentoring of a patrol leader or SPL who is struggling with his position. Something like that, which doesn't necessarily require the boy to be in attendance all the time but still offers him ways to stay connected. You can't require these, but you can certainly ask him to help identify what he's able to do for/with the troop. But even if he can't do any of that stuff, "giving back" doesn't necessarily have to be an immediate thing. Hopefully he'll have many years ahead of him to give back to scouting as an adult.

None.

I would note that taking an explanation of a requirement for Star, Life, and Eagle, and applying it downward to AOL, does not make a lot of sense. While I understand the temptation to do that, and yes cub scouting is part of the BSA, there are significant differences to the two programs. Sometimes I feel that we boy scouter types overlook that when attempting to deal with cubs. Just as we wouldn't expect a Sea Scout or Venturing requirement to apply in boy scouting (even though those are also BSA programs), we shouldn't be applying boy scout standards to cub scouts.

OK the backrub thing is a little creepy. I have been known to cause pain to men who have tried that sort of thing on me out of the blue and without my permission. Typically it happens only once. But it was a year ago, and he apologized. Take it at face value. Have the committee chair have an unofficial talk with Mike to tell him to back off. And an unofficial talk with Jack to tell him that any untoward behavior in the future will be unacceptable to the unit. And then move on already.

Ah. First, lrsap's advice is really good. It is easy to get sucked in way over your head. Second, at a bare minimum, a functional pack needs a functioning CM, Committee Chair, and some Den Leaders. For rechartering purposes you also need a COR (charter org representative) who serves as a liaison between the pack and the CO - this is supposed to be appointed by the CO, and some CORs are more active than others. Ideally, you'll have someone who is active in the CO and who also understands scouting. If you have no idea who this person currently is, call your council office and get hold of your unit's roster. Then invite whoever is listed as the COR to a meeting. These absolutely need to be separate people, not 2 or 3 all wearing multiple hats. Besides lrsap's advice about over-committing, it actually weakens (or prolongs weakness of) the pack. Other parents see that they don't have to do anything because you're already doing it, or they're reluctant to volunteer because they see how much of your time you put in and they don't want to do that. Third, you will have a much happier CM if she has a committee chair to help her! Talk to your CM and amp out a strategy together. Since it sounds like the two of you are probably the main active leaders in the group, you want to be on the same page. If you have a Unit Commissioner, this is a great person to offer advice too.

Good question. There are good and bad things about being a small/new pack vs.an established/large pack. On the good side, your kid won't get lost in the crowd! 100 kids in a cub pack sounds like a circus to me. I know that there are packs out there who do this well, but it just isn't an atmosphere that I would enjoy. Also in a small pack, just a couple of determined/inspired leaders makes a huge difference. You probably don't have a huge "old guard" to worry about. Sometimes that's a big plus. Of course you already know the downside. Organization is often looser in a small pack and there are fewer hands to help out with events. But keep in mind that many packs of all sizes struggle with high adult turn over rates, so that larger pack down the road may not be as organized as you expect it to be! On the whole, because adult leadership of packs turns over so frequently, I think it is a lot easier to "fix" a pack than it is to "fix" a troop (where adults are often ensconced for decades, for both good and ill). It does help, though, if you and at least one other person in the pack leadership have a common vision of what the pack ought to look like. Pick just a couple of areas of weakness to focus on - maybe communication and one other - and come up with a serious plan to present to your pack committee (or at least, the CM). Forming a mentoring relation with another established pack/troop is a great idea too. Just make sure everybody is on the same page with what you hope to accomplish from this. You don't want them to run your pack or recruit your boys away - you want them to help your pack get on its feet. And finally, think about Wood Badge for next summer! I promise you, you'll get a lot out of it, it is fun, and it will make a big difference for your pack.