Lisabob

Call their parents (or make them call their parents) and send them home from the meeting. No warnings, etc, about "next time." I sure would be upset if my kid were bringing this sort of material to a scouting function and the adults in charge did NOT tell me about it. SM and parent should be a team and that only happens if parents are kept in the loop. No, I have not been part of any scouting unit that had such a policy. None was needed. Everybody knows that is inappropriate at a scouting event.

I'm also not fond of "mandatory" events. They have an annoying tendency to multiply. Once you start labeling mandatory activities, anything which you do not specify as such gets terrible attendance (well it wasn't mandatory!). Personally, when somebody tells me something is mandatory in a volunteer capacity, my initial, often unspoken, response tends to be sort of unscoutlike (oh yeah? you going to make me? good luck with that buddy). I just really don't appreciate people on power trips, trying to manage my limited time and energy for me, without any good explanation of *why* they want me to do something. Tell me why you want me to do something and you're likely to get a much better response than if you attempt to simply mandate it.

1. We don't have a boy scout summer camp program in our council. 2. If we did, I think we'd likely go out of council every couple of years anyway. Currently we alternate years between a "far away" summer camp and a "nearby" summer camp (within a roughly 200 mile radius from home). The boys enjoy experiencing different camps, but it would be nice to have a base camp to return to every couple of years. 3 & 4. Up though this year, the SM and CC have chosen 4-6 camps they are willing to go to, and the boys pick from them. The SM is open to more input into the process though. I'm ambivalent about the way we do this (would like it to be more in the boys' hands), but I understand why the adults want to have a strong voice in setting the options.

John, Not quite. We actually have 3 camps. However, the council does not run a boy scout summer camp program. Our council does offer NYLT, but it just doesn't fit this boy's schedule. In the past, our troop has not sent anybody to NYLT either. This year, the committee agreed to pay for the SPL-elect to go, which is great, but since our elections for SPL are in late May, many boys already had plans for the week when our council's NYLT course is being held. So we are looking for options. And next year, perhaps we can do what eagle77 suggested.

Yeah and on rare occasions when a boy says no to an activity just because he needs a little down time from scouting, maybe we should be a little more understanding!

"I say, Let them throw rocks. " Yeah, but as an organized activity to be taught? Sheesh, that seems crazy to me. It is bad enough kids don't play pick up ball games anymore because they've become so accustomed to parents organizing everything. Now they can't even chuck rocks without parental organization and rules to tell them how? As long as they're not chucking them at each other, I just don't see the point here.

Could you guys offer me a quick overview of what happens at NYLT? Our troop has never sent anyone to this before, and a few months ago the committee decided that they would pay for next year's SPL to attend. However, the boy who got elected last night has a scheduling conflict that can't be moved, and he can't attend our council's NYLT. So we're looking for options and I have a couple of questions. 1) Can a boy attend an NYLT out of his council? 2) Would you recommend this? If not, why not? 3) Anybody here from Tall Pines Council (MI), Lake Huron Area Council (MI), or Erie Shores Council (OH) who can tell me whether they recommend their council's program in particular? 4) Are most NYLTs likely to be full by now? (How can we plan this better next year, given that our elections aren't until late May?) Thanks for the info!

There's just way too much emotion in this thread. Amy, do what you are comfortable with doing. That's really about all we can ask of any volunteer. Keep in mind that pretty much ALL of us are volunteers too though. Not like somebody else is going to get paid the big bucks for dealing with this problem. And stick around. You might get more "advice" than you really want sometimes (hey, don't ask if you don't want people's opinions!) but there are a lot of folks here who are also great resources as you go through the year, and particularly as you work on transitioning your Webelos into boy scouts. Boy Scouting is a whole different world! Have fun with your 8 guys this year. Webelos DL was my favorite volunteer position. Yours in Scouting, Lisa

Kind of strange. Yes kids throw rocks. Making it into a cub scout "sport" is odd though. Honestly, if my kid came home from cub day camp and I asked "what did you do today?" and his answer was "we learned how to throw rocks!" Then I would have a bunch of questions for the day camp organizers!

Hang on there. I think you may have misunderstood the motivation behind my original question (and thus, people's responses). I asked this question because a couple of adults I know appear to be of the opinion that every boy should get Eagle, and that we (troop committee) should be expecting several of our late-17's who haven't been active, have shown little motivation in the last couple of years etc., to suddenly appear on the doorstep with Eagle projects in hand. I am skeptical of the utility of that. Not only am I unenthused about rushed projects of little value like curb painting, I also don't believe that Eagle is or should be the point of scouting. That is not always a popular view in some troops though. (On the other hand, the artificial minimum age requirements for Eagle are silly too.) So my question was a skeptical, scratching the head, asking those with more experience than me, sort of question. I have a hard time imagining that a truly last minute project would be very fulfilling or worth while. I have a hard time too, imagining that these boys are likely going to pull it off. And frankly, I have a hard time (as a potential BOR member) imagining myself being happy to sit on such a BOR.

I think you could start by asking the scouts what they think about the matter. Especially if most of them have participated in the past, and since you have such a small group, make it a whole group discussion. Ask for input. Let them know why this particular event is so important to the VFW that sponsors their troop. Ask them for ideas on how else they can ensure that the VFW knows their sponsorship is appreciated. From what you write, it doesn't sound like you KNOW they are embarrassed - just that you are guessing. It could be that, or it could be something else (they wanted to sleep in, the route is really long, etc.) Understanding why several of your troop's boys were not participating even though they were in town (along the parade route) might be a good place to start.

I've really tried to stay far out of this "debate" since it more closely resembles the trash talking you find on a lot of supposed "news" blogs, than a scouting-related site. But as someone with an academic background in studying political violence, I have to take issue with this statement: "terrorist attacks started with airplane hijackings of the 1970's" Nope. Terrorism can be traced much, MUCH further back in time than that. Check out the "zealots" (aka sicarii) from the 1st C. if you want to go way back. I'm not going to follow up on this thread so by all means, go back to the bickering, but I just couldn't let that one stand without comment.

This is a very difficult picture that you paint. I am also sorry that you've had to go through what you've described thus far. However, you need to understand how this may all look to the charter organization, and to other parents of boys who are still in the troop. As someone who recently graduated from the troop, your perspective is probably very different from theirs. So I'm going to spell out some of the types of concerns that I think a lot of parents might have. Without knowing you or your troop's situation I cannot be sure these all apply perfectly, and none of this is in any way an attack on you. It is simply my effort to ask you to see another side to the matter. 1. Probably many parents in the troop are aware of the troop's difficulties from a year or two ago, regardless of how or if those difficulties were eventually resolved. That leads to hyper-awareness because parents do not take youth protection issues lightly. 2. Whatever the recent myspace debacle was, it might have been a red flag that current leadership isn't showing serious enough understanding of such issues, for the tastes of some parents in the group. Even if it was a fairly minor incident, you appear to want to view it as an isolated matter, while some adults are probably connecting it in their minds to previous incidents of youth protection problems. (fairly or not) 3. Probably some parents are concerned that young adults in their late teens or early twenties do not have the maturity and judgment required to keep their children safe. At the very least, many parents will feel uncomfortable leaving their children in the care of barely older individuals who are "adult" by virtue of BSA rules alone (increasingly, many adults do not consider age 18 to be the magic number at which people join the ranks of adulthood. 21, maybe. 25, probably. 30??) That does not mean you are immature or incapable. It does mean that perceptions matter. And sometimes life isn't 100% fair. 4. Probably the CO is still troubled by past allegations of impropriety and has a hair trigger about such matters now. Anything that has even a whiff of controversy to it is likely to bring on a strong reaction (maybe an over-reaction) as a result. You may be the unintended victim of such an over-reaction. 5. Possibly some people do not want certain adults to come back to the troop, or would like to see certain families leave the troop. I hate to say it but maybe your family is one that some troop parents would like to see leave. This rule effectively accomplishes that while using other justifications for doing so. 6. It really is difficult for many 18-19-20 year olds to make the transition from youth member to adult leader, especially when a week or a month or a year ago, they were simply buddies with the other older boys in the troop. Are you sure you really can pull that off? The two roles - adult and youth member - are vastly different and require very different skills to do well. Let us suppose that you are mature beyond your years, that you are crystal clear on the line between youth and adult membership and roles, and that you are nothing short of a 110% excellent mentor to youth. In that case, your troop's CO still has the right to have this policy. No amount of discussion on a message board or with the (now ousted) SM will change that, and some of that could even backfire if you live in a small town where word gets around when people complain about things. If you want to challenge it, the best way to do so is probably to have a respectful discussion with the Institutional Head of the Church that sponsors the troop (probably the pastor). Ask for a formal meeting, just you and the IH - not a group meeting. Let the IH explain to you why they have this rule. Really listen. Respect and reflect upon what they say. If you feel you must respond right away, don't try to refute, point by point, whatever they tell you - this just looks like arguing to a lot of people, and that's immature. That's a trap that will only confirm their judgment about young adults. Instead, you might ask what you could do to help the pastor see you in a different light. Are there some programs for young adult men in the church that you could join? In short, ask for what you could do to build your adult leadership skills, in the eyes of the church. And then, as long as the answer is not "nothing, sorry" do what the pastor tells you to do! Do it as well as you can, as cooperatively as you can. Learn from the other adults in the church. Let them mentor you for a while. Maybe down the road a short distance, they will be so impressed with your dedication and maturity, that they'll reconsider. But, get bitter and argumentative about it, and they'll likely (figuratively) shut the door in your face. In the meantime, if an adult scouting position is not immediately in the cards, there are a LOT of other good opportunities out there for someone in your age range. Are you a student? Consider getting involved in some groups on your college campus. If you are not a student, look for civic groups like the Jaycees or the Lions that you can join to help you stay connected to your community and develop good mentoring relationships. Join a local hiking group or environmental club. Join the local sport shooting range, or whatever it is you are interested in, and for which there's a local adult group. Volunteer with Habitat for Humanity or your church's mission group or the local library or something. There are many ways to serve your community that might fit your current circumstances. The scouting door will always be open again in the future, even if it isn't right now. And of course, there are other troops, too. I wish you all the best in your endeavors. I hope that you will continue to enjoy and learn from scouting as your Crew's president, and that you'll find ways in the future to be involved again as an adult in a troop. Yours in Scouting, Lisa

Actually I believe that there are some other terms one might be looking for to describe that particular shirt design!

Sure, I'd buy that approach. I was just pointing out why I didn't think mmhardy's comparisons were apt. Anyway, as far as I can tell, the original poster's problem stems not only from the policy itself, but also with how it is enforced, and perhaps with identifying the extent to which parents ought to support the judgment and preferences (in fairly minor issues) of people who volunteer to give up a lot of their free time to take other folks' kids camping.

Sorry mmhardy, but those are poor comparisons because when you LEAVE each of those places, you are done with that activity. Also, if you don't want to put up with the noise on the range, the splashing at the waterfront, or the bad singing in the mess hall, you can actively choose to avoid those particular locations. Part of the annoyance factor of (badly managed) cell phone use is that it is, or at least can be, constant. It is not confined to any particular place and it often spills over into the enjoyment of other people who do not wish to hear it, but who cannot escape it.

Sandspur wrote: "I think Lisabobs question was to ask how a generation growing up with cell phones may alter their perception of what is a normal tether to place on their youngsters. " Yes that was exactly what I was trying to ask. You stated it far better than I did. Thank you. As for your conclusions, I also agree that this is a losing battle, but it worries me. 20 years ago, kids of my generation roamed the neighborhood in the evening, playing until dark, without our parents being any the wiser about our whereabouts. Yes, in some isolated cases, bad things happened or kids got into mischief. We also learned a lot about how to conduct ourselves and who we were. But that started changing during my late childhood after a few stories of horrendous kidnappings and crimes and the invention of the 24 hour cable news cycle, which played those stories over and over and over again in order to fill the airwaves with "news." I'm not saying those stories weren't true, but for a while, it seemed like the boogy man was lurking around every corner and behind every tree. A child in California was harmed, and in NY where I was living, parents (attempted to) shut their kids indoors for weeks - literally. The up-shot of this constant publicity to sensational (and rare) crimes is that today, parents are afraid to let their children out of their sights. These days I teach on a large public university campus. Many of the first year students are away from home for the very first time in their lives. Partly because they've been so guarded and protected as children, many of them lack what I'd have considered to be common sense and basic life skills. Stuff we developed at age 10 in the neighborhood, they don't have at age 18 in the dorm. Consequences are often far worse for many more of them, than was the case for the occasional ordinary-level mischief that happened among 10 year olds playing in people's back yards on a summer evening. What happens then, is that parents want more university controls and eyes watching out for their little darlings (at age 18, 19, 20, and up). "In loco parentis" is a commonly repeated phrase on many college campuses. Same thing with cell phones. I do not think they're awful. I don't mind so much if a kid has one. I mind a lot when anybody uses it inappropriately (and adults are often worse culprits, maybe because they were not socialized to proper cell phone etiquette until later on in life, or maybe because adults fall into the habit of thinking everything they do is "important!"). But the bigger issue with phones isn't courtesy or trust. To me, it is at least partly a question of developing an identity and a sense of self-confidence. Can you be "you" when the phone is off? Do you even know who "you" are, or are you so constantly wired in to others that you have no opportunity to develop your sense of independent identity, or to develop coping mechanisms for when things go wrong and you can't just call someone? And what sort of shallow consciousness does that lead to, and what are the net effects on an already fearful and garrisoned society? It probably IS a losing battle. And maybe "battle" isn't even the right frame for what I was trying to get at anyway. But it really does worry me that very soon, we'll have a whole new generation of parents for whom constant connection to everybody is a given, and who cannot imagine giving their children the freedom to develop themselves without that connection. What new limits will be common place in the lives of children 10 years from now, as a direct result?

From what you write, it sounds as though the immediate objection isn't to the policy itself, but to the uneven way in which it is (or isn't) enforced. That is a whole different ball of wax. Maybe the SM is a little over the top. On the other hand, I agree that it is a bit odd that you are willing to send your child off into the woods in this fellow's care, but you are not willing to give him the respect and support he is due when it comes to a fairly minor matter like whether your son should have a cell phone with him. Other people violating the rules (and lying about it) is a poor justification for your son to do the same. If you really feel that strongly about the policy then there's nothing wrong with you telling your son that although you disagree, you still support the SM's decision out of an abundance of respect and appreciation for the SM's generosity of time, energy, and experience that makes the troop camping trips possible. Now THAT, to me, would be setting a fine example of courtesy for a growing young man to follow.

In the original thread, a dad is concerned about a troop rule barring cell phones, in contradiction to the family's policy that his son have a cell phone at all times. Dad is an Eagle, by the way. OGE (and several others) pointed out to the dad that: "most of use lived through the experience of youth without cell phones " Dad probably made it to Eagle without ever taking a cell phone on a camping trip. While adults and youth alike may be totally wired today, the difference is that anybody above the age of about 30 probably knows what it is like to have grown up without a cell phone. Not so for most of today's kids, many of whom have their own cell phones from the age of about 8. Even many of today's 20-something parents probably starting getting cell phones in their late teens, when the technology became cheaper and more wide spread. I wonder. How will this constant connectivity influence the tethers that these generations place on THEIR children? At least we "old fogies" know that life without cell phone is possible.

Presumably this "no cell phones" rule is not new. You've suggested that you asked the SM to make an exception in your son's case and he said no. He's 14 and Star, so that means he has been a boy scout for a while now. Why is this an issue right now? Has something changed that makes you feel he needs a cell phone now, more than in the past?

I have a 14 year old too. I trust him and his judgment most of the time too. When he goes to a movie with his friends and wants a cell phone so he can call me when he needs a ride home, I am ok with that. When he goes camping, he does not need (or want) a cell phone in his pack. Any minor emergencies, he knows how to handle. Any major emergencies, either one of the adults will have a phone, or a cell phone would be useless anyway. I understand what you are saying about treating youth with respect to their abilities and maturity (rather than their age). But the SM in question must have a reason for his policy. THat reason probably has to do with boys - and more likely, adults - who misuse the cell phone tether. You need to decide how big an issue this really is, unclouded by past bad experiences. If you truly believe the cell phone policy puts your son in the path of unacceptable threat, then find a different troop. But be sure you aren't over-reacting. Again I ask: how did you make it to Eagle Scout, in an era where cell phones probably were not ubiquitous? Does your son really need that cell phone, or is to make YOU feel better? What lesson do you really wish to teach him?

No, haven't heard that. WFA is a good idea, but not as a rank requirement (IMO). Some places, it might be quite challenging to find someone qualified and willing to teach it on anything like a regular basis. Around here, it is offered by a couple of different groups, but only once or twice a year. And yes, it is pretty expensive to expect every 1st Cl scout to do it in order to advance. On the other hand, I have heard that WFA will be required for all high adventure trips (for someone in the group - not for all, or even any, scouts - could be an adult leader). Maybe your contact got that confused?

We can go round and round about whether cell phones should or should not be banned. You'll get all sorts of opinions about that. But the question here is not whether they ought to be banned. The question here is whether you trust and respect the judgment of the adults in your son's troop. If you do, then grit your teeth and support them. They are the ones giving their time to take your boy camping and teach him things, so you should respect their preference, particularly about relatively minor issues like this. If you really cannot respect and trust the adults to keep your boy safe without a cell phone, then you need to consider whether your boy should be in boy scouting, or at least in that troop. Is it that these leaders really are not trustworthy? Or that you as a parent are not used to giving your son the independence that scouting (and real life) encourages? Please don't take that the wrong way because I don't mean this as an insult, but sometimes another perspective helps is all. Finally, the tornado what-if scenario sounds like adult anxiety to me. If you spot a tornado heading toward your son's troop then probably the troop is already aware of it, but if they are not and you absolutely feel you must call someone, how about calling the Scoutmaster instead of your son? I can only imagine a typical 11 year old, getting a call from Mom or Dad like this: "Hey son, there's a tornado heading your way!" And the panic that would likely ensue. You are an Eagle scout so that must mean you've done a good deal of camping, and I'm willing to bet that a lot of it happened minus a phone yet you survived. Is there a reason you think your son would not?

Did anybody else see the knots segment on CBS Sunday morning today? It featured some Sea Scouts, among others! About 5 minutes long.

Wow. 5 district camporees? Really? We have 2 or 3 a year and one of those is a council event. Sometimes a little perspective is a good thing, I guess. My son's troop camps 10 months of the year (they take August and December off). They go to a different summer camp every year. Of course we don't have a council boy scout summer camp but even if we did, I don't think we'd be that stick-in-the-mud about it. They have a few old favorite campouts that the boys bring back almost every year, but they mix it up too, in terms of theme, activity, and location. Actually there is sometimes a complaint that his troop does not participate in enough district events! (They only attend a district or council camporee every 2 years or so.) And they're not unusual around here. 5 of the 6 troops in our town and the town next to us act pretty much just like this, although most of the others do participate more in district events. (The 6th one sounds kind of like what Eamonn describes!) Hard to imagine being part of a troop that doesn't do much in the way of adventure. Then again, maybe that's why the 6th troop I mentioned above is very small and almost folded last year.